One Piece: High 7-A or Low 6-B

Some Recap

Recenty Whitebeard was upgraded to 6-B on the basis of being a "God tier". Shortly afterwards many others were made 6-B as well because they're also "God Tier". Finally the Admirals and Rayleigh were made low 6-B because of their stopping WB's quake. This was after 6-B was shutdown since they have no cause to be equal to WB, who is just baseline 6-B.

The Problems

As was addressed in this thread, the logistics of all these charcaters being 6-B does not add up. Multiple points were raised but I'll focus just on the Admirals for now to keep things focused.

Breakdown of Admiral feats


1. Admirals who fought a healthy Top Pirate

a. Sengoku-2 (eventually made Fleet-Admiral)

b. Akainu-0

c. Kizaru-0

d. Kuzan-0

e. Ryu-0

f. Issho-0

g. Z-0

h. Gion-0 (Considered but ultimately not strong as other Admirals)

i. Toki-0 (Considered but ultimately not strong as other Admirals)

2. Admirals who fought a weakened Top Pirate

a. Akainu-1 (Made Fleet Admiral)

b. Kizaru-1

c. Kuzan-1 (Contender for Fleet-Admiral)

d. Ryu-0

e. Issho-0

f. Z-0

g. Gion-0

h. Toki-0

3. Admirals who wounded a weakened Top Pirate

a. Akainu-1 (Dur Negation)

b. Kizaru-1 (Dur Negation)

c. Kuzan-0

d. Ryu-0

e. Issho-0

f. Z-0

g. Gion-0

h. Toki-0

4. Admirals who "Tanked" an attack from a weakened Top Pirate

a. Akainu-1 (Not only does his strength put him in the position of Fleet Admiral but his reaction to WB blows were the same if not worse than Queen's to BM)

b. Kizaru-0

c. Kuzan-0

d. Ryu-0

e. Issho-0

f. Z-0

g. Gion-0

h. Toki-0

5. Admirals who fought Yonko Commanders or lower

a. Akainu-3 (Marco, Ace, Jinbei)

b. Kizaru-3 (Ben, Marco, Silver)

c. Kuzan-4 (Marco, Ace, Jozu, Duffy)

d. Ryu-4 (Sabo's subordinates)

e. Issho-10 (Sabo, Zoro, Duffy, Luffy (Gear 3), Jack, Sabo's subordinates)

f. Z-3 (Luffy, Kizaru, unnamed warlord (If I missed someone significant my apologies with this one)

g. Gion-0

h. Toki-0


So statistically speaking the Admiral title corresponds more closely with Yonko commanders or those around their level (High tiers). Only one Admiral fought multiple healthy Yonko and that one was made Fleet Admiral: SenGoku. Only three of the remaining 8 fought eve a weakened versio of a Yonko. Among them was someone who's strength was worthy of the next position up and another who shouldn't be far behind that. Even then only two Admirals managed to actually damage a weakened Yonko (Via dur negation) and only one sort of "tanked" a hit.

It is also worth noting that Big Mom herself would have been fleet admiral if she went with a life of Marines instead of pirates. Furthermore, the case of three admiral lackeys under one fleet-admiral corresponds with BM and her top 3 lackeys as well as Kaido and his top three lackeys. Many fans also point to WB & Red Hair pirates having a top three though that is neither confirmed nor denied. Why should the Marines be any different.


But what of the big three canceling out a quake?


This still leaves the feat of three admirals stopping a Yonko attack. I already addressed that in another thread that Ace was the target and therefore 4 conclusions may be set:

1. WB held back on his power so not to destroy Ace, there by allowing the high tier admirals a chance to cancel it out with their combined high 7-A stats

2. WB did not hold back but rather this is proof Ace and other high tiers should be low 6-B

3. Whitebeard did not hold back and the high tiers do not scale to to low 6-B. Rather this is proof that the 6-B calc is an outlier as WB can be blocked by three high 7-As

4. The whole thing is an outlier that should not be taken seriously

Okay 4 is not actually a legit conclusion. I included it because often the word "outlier" gets misused. Just in case anyone wanted to include that then there it is.


Conclusions

Conclusion 3 is probably the best bet based on all calcs and scaling of the vers, but it also means just downgrades so I don't see this is going through.

Conclusion 4 is not actually a legit conclusion but something someone might say in spite of anything else

Conclusion 1 is a good option that keeps 6-B OP characters but keeps feats more consistant. Characters like Big Mom, Kaido, Whitebeard etc stay well above the rest since when healthy they donn't have much in the way of bad showings.

Conclusion 2 gives us the highest ratings for all OP characters and makes sense with all the feats scaling them to each other.. the only problem with it being it dismisses the huge body of calcs which put OP much lower. This leap was already done though so I don't see it being much a problem unless people just really do not want to see these charcaters upgraded.


Vote Tally


Conclusion 1:

Conclusion 2 : LSirLancelotDuLacl (Reason: Middle ground), The Calaca (Reason: Most accurate of the three), CinCameron (Reason: List of feats)

Conclusion 3:

Conclusion 4:

Question because I might be misunderstanding but why do you assume that Ace was the sole target of the attack? I thought the target was the entire platform in general.

Because take into consideration that while the fire man was there, Fleet Admiral Sengoku and The Fist Garp were also there besides the fire man, not even 3 meters apart from the prisoner. Two people who are just as powerful as Whitemustache. Whitemustache had to at least take into consideration that they might have intervened

Whether its the top tier marines or just the admirals the point is the same. WB wants to save Ace, not kill him. He'd use the force that would free him, not hurt him.

Yeah he wants to save Ace, but why would he deliberatively disregards two fighters, possibly just as strong as he is, basically no less than 3 meters away from Ace on the platform. To aim at Ace would be the same as aiming at them as well.

The Admirals scale to 3x that of the Whitebeard Quake, but a bloodlusted practically dying Whitebeard utterly curbstomped one of them (Akainu)

It's clear WB wasn't going all out then.

@Schnee so to be clear, you favour conclusion #1?

I have none just yet.

@Schnee okay, I just wanted that cleared

@Plum I'm not sure what you're getting at. You worried WB didn't weaken his attack for the top Marines?

The Admirals having Durability Negation to an extent does help explain how they'd be able to harm old Whitebeard without being on his level.

I'll need to think a bit more about the rest of it.

"Whitebeard was upgraded to 6-B on the basis of being a God Tier"

You are trying to be funny, right? I hope so.

I disagree with this entirely. You bring up the position of "admiral" and "fleet admiral" like its relevancy matters in this. Garp was a Vice Admiral and was at that level of power. Of course he's a special case and he denied ascension... yet he was still at that level before ascension, and despite such power was only offered Admiral. Funny enough there's also Zephyr, who likewise was stated to clash with WB when he was an Admiral. The relevancy of the number of admirals to the number of commanders is none. You also bring up Issho who is not even scaled up there last I saw unless that's been on the menu but was slowed down, and use Zephyr to apparently finish setting the precedent when he has statements of clashing with these people.

I just don't agree with the logic used, less so with the assumptions because why wouldn't WB have enough control over his power that Ace is in less immediate danger from him doing that than letting 3 admirals hanging around him? BB starts ******* up Marineford just like WB, but immediately admits he lacks real control over the power, which WB obviously had.

Though I am sure I am missing something, because Whitebeard is already 6-B and the Admirals Low 6-B in their profiles.

Well as I mentioned in my post I may have missed something with Zephyr. That being said, I def do not recall any fights between him and roger or WB. When did this happen?

>>"Whitebeard was upgraded to 6-B on the basis of being a God Tier" You are trying to be funny, right? I hope so.

These comments do not contribute to the discussion. Please review in the old thread instead of making jokes.

I'll provide feedback as soon as I'm able to. Currently a little too busy this week. Not trying to ignore the thread, but i do have things to point out.

@LSirLancelot - Your clearly disrespectful comments are not appreciated, especially when you are not providing any evidence to support your point/counter what is being discussed. I'd greatly appreciate it if you tone it down. If not, kindly unfollow the thread before you derail it with your needless sass .

I'm also in agreement that the titles should not affect a character's power level, as I'm certain the likes of Fujitora and Ryokugyo (as well as the other nominated Admirals) do not scale to the PL of the original 3... especially with their severely lacking feats and no actual feats against said Low 6-B/6-B Characters. Only those Pre TS Admirals, Sengoku, Garp and VERY few others have reason to even get a "Likely Low 6-B" or "6-B" rating anyways from WB.

I'd honestly ask you to calm down, and for you to calm your stuff Cin. Your passive aggressiveness is an unnecessary pain I don't care to deal with. The wording of that first sentence would make it seem WB was scaled for nothing beyond being a "God tier", hence what could be called an outlier is being let pass because he is way above other people. If this is so hard to realize, just say so instead of this bullcrap.

And I don't remember when, but it is mentioned that like others in the time of Gol. D and WB that were in high positions like Garp, he clashed with the likes of them. The nature and the result of these clashes were never specified, so perhaps you could think that'd be reason to leave his tier doubtful. Still, his clash with Luffy is when he's already pretty old and he himself comments on his weakening with age.

> The wording of that first sentence would make it seem WB was scaled for nothing beyond being a "God tier", hence what could be called an outlier is being let pass because he is way above other people.

Err, pretty sure that's exactly why people argued against it being an outlier.

If people have such a contention for the rating, "he's above everyone else but not entirely" doesn't sound like the kind of reasoning that would convince a lot of people. I really doubt that was all.

And again, the admirals are already scaled to Low 6-B like in the second proposal that OP says seem to be the best option for a middle ground, so is there any actual change to be done or did I mayhaps miss something? Or is this just a "fully deciding how to handle this" thread because its a bit in the air?

I am personally fine with the admirals being a little over 1/3rd of Whitebeard in power. That is enough for him to have a clear advantage in a fight, even though Akainu could still cause severe damage, recover from his blows, and send Blackbeard fleeing.

I am also fine with continuing to scale the Yonkou to 6-B from the WB feat. Comicbooks cannot be expected to be entirely consistent and logical, and the feat was not so far above everything else that it should be discarded.

I'm really not in the mood to dig in the discussion to a deeper extent, but arguing that just because Ace's High 7-A the whole thing should be discarded is a flawed argument.

I blame myself for all the procastination, because the CRTs for some characters are taking longer than they should take at all. Why do I say this? Because Ace might be upgraded to Low 6-B not from this 'feat' alone but a bunch of extra evidence.

I agree with Calaca.

So you both favor 2 as well then?

By discard, yes. It's the most accurate option IMO.

Well, I do not think that all high tiers should necessarily be Low 6-B. One Piece has been very inconsistent for the sake of rule of cool, such as Doflamingo restraining Jozu, and Crocodile clashing evenly with him, despite that Cracker was stated to be stronger than Doflamingo on a later occasion.

@Ant the rule of cool is not a valid response

It's a way to call the inconsistencies. The Paramount War is full of them, and some might even say that those are due to Oda's lack of memory about the powerlevels. Otherwise we'd scale Alabasta Luffy to Jozu's attack potency because he beat Crocodile while the diamond man couldn't.

It is actually. We cannot expect the story to be completely consistent at all times, as I gave examples for above.

Similarly, Ace briefly matched Aokiji, yet was easily killed by Akainu, and Akainu and Aokiji fought for several days.

Well I don't have a problem with calling out inconsistencies whereby a prescedence is used. I'm just saying let's not make "rule of cool" a legit excuse in place of logical arguments. :S

@Calaca

I meant that Crocodile fought Doflamingo, if I remember correctly.

I used that as an example. Jozu Brilliant Punk'd Crocodile before Doffy restrained him with his strings and the only thing Croco got was some blood on his face without getting rekt from a Yonko Commander.

I'm off to work for the day, I will update the op with any more votes when I get back. In the meantime, @Cin is the most knowledgeable memeber regarding Duffy so better to wait and let him weigh in on that.

And again, no rule of cool excuses lol I did not go through the trouble of gathering all those feats for nothing.

There are very strong inconsistencies that I just mentioned, and they were likely added because of story progression and fan service, not due to that they made perfect sense. The challenge is to find some sort of consistent pattern to scale from.

Im still undecided but is it not possible that whitebeard was just aiming for the scaffolding to break it so ace and co would fall and be easier to reach?

Iirc correctly some character yelled out hes aiming for the scadfolding and then the admirals blocked it. If he just broke that its possible ace would survive the fall and any damage spread if it did reach him since it would be less as it spread right??

If the argument is really about Ace's placement in terms of PL (High 7-A at max as of rn), there's actually enough to even suggest he is possibly Low 6-B anyways, and could have likely taken part of the hit without really being hurt anyways. He stopped an attack from Aokiji, and before that, fought Blackbeard, who managed to hurt a near-death WB, and took two hits from him without being overly damaged (terrified, yes, but he tanked a quake to the face).

Now, regarding other characters:

We do have Jozu harming Aokiji (if only slightly), and also battling him off panel for x amount of time. The same in regards to Marco vs the Admirals, as he could hold his own for a long time against Kizaru, and he did send Aokiji flying with a kick and broke his ice saber (and Vista, but Mihawk going anywhere near all out is unsupported and almost laughable).

Doflamingo has withstood being frozen by Aokiji (The output of Aokiji's power is questionable, as it was very likely a warning, but Doflamingo was confident he could kill Smoker and possibly even fight Aokiji on the spot to have his way), and he stopped Jozu. Not to mention, yes he hurt Crocodile and casually blocked a lot of his attacks when Crocodile managed to withstand an attack from Jozu (who again, has the capacity to slightly harm Aokiji). We've also seen Doflamingo's threads tank the shower of meteorites from Fujitora, one being 6-C, the entire shower being 6-C+ (iirc, someone correct me), so it could be a supporting feat.

Jinbe blocked an attack from Big Mom (albeit weakened) with Haki and somehow took almost no damage, then managed to knock her off the Sunny, though he did not damage her. So I'd question his scaling here. He fought Ace in the past, but that was years prior and I doubt it held much significance even Pre Time-skip. He also stopped a punch from Akainu.

There's likely a lot more I haven't even touched that can support these characters being "Possibly" Low 6-B. They held their own against the Admirals or people around their own level.

At least High 7-A, Possibly Low 6-B is one solution (using current scaling), but if Doflamingo's threads tanking the meteorites is taken into account (can't really get an accurate value here anyways), it could be anywhere between 6-C and 6-C+ for the minimum (Fuji doesn't scale, poor soul).

Crocodile is literally the only reason this is getting difficult, but if we have to ignore G2 Luffy slapping him aside, so be it.

Regarding Doffy threads - If we're going off this calc, then the entire shower of meteors is low end High 6-C.

Regarding the Doffy breaking ice - It was mention by Buffalo that Doffy wasn't entirely frozen to the core by Aokiji's ice, so Aokiji was likely holding back

There's no reason within the plot for Kuzan to hold back. Also noprecedence established that Kuzan should freeze Duffy to the core.

Anyways, updated the OP.

Aokiji did notably use a different technique than he used on the Strawhats earlier on Doflamingo. Given the description that he froze the ground itself to connect to Doffy to freeze him, that's different than his other techniques.

Whether or not he held back is speculative, but he did use different attacks.

Not to derail, but since new topics are coming up in regards to Wano arc, I did make a new thread to discuss stats, but I do believe the 6-B stuff should remain in this thread.

Thread regarding Wano and potential page changes: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3489181

@Kobster - He wasn't frozen to the core either because Kuzan held back (possible, but not very likely), or because he resisted it through being strong enough to tank the attack (whether physically, haki, or both), and as discussed in other threads--it's very unlikely that Doflamingo would be stupid enough to challenge Aokiji to a fight he believes he would lose, especially when he had his back to him upon trying to kill Smoker. I believe Doffy might have been strong enough to at least fight Aokiji for some time.

So either A) Kuzan held back with no reason to do so and Doflamingo was being out-of-character-levels-of-stupid, or B) Doflamingo believed he could have his way, even if Kuzan attacked him. Kuzan attempted to incapacitate Doffy, but failed, which led to Doflamingo's stand-off with him, but ultimately deciding to leave due to other matters (Caesar, Law, Luffy) and even if he fought Aokiji, it would DEFINITELY not be worth it, even if he managed to kill Smoker and escape.

BUMP

So what are the conclusions here?

I'm waiting for @Damage's response. Said he wanted to think on it.

Of course other responses are welcome as well.

Otherwise we seem to be leaning towards Conclusion two. What that means for profiles is all high 7-A get an upgrade to Low 6-B rather than anyone getting a downgrade.