Pennywise revisions, part 2 (Hax, weaknesses, ?): We all float down here, Georgie.

Hello there!

First off, I want to apologize for taking so long starting this revision, I dont know if I will be able to complete this first post with everything I had in mind since I dont have that much time to spare.

Anyway, here I will detail every ability Pennywise should have, given a description and justification for it.

Pennywise (for reference), I will start with the ones in the profile, and later on I will add abilities that they should have.

AVATAR FORM:

1) Superhuman physical characteristics: pretty obvious if you ask me.

2) Reality Warping: It's a very generic and broad term, but I guess we can say IT does it in many ways, for example, those shadowless forms it takes, the balloons that float against the wind's direction, transmutating stuff, creating monsters,...

3) Immortality: Type 1 (I have some doubts since Maturin is supposed to have died of old age in the book, but since Pennywise is pretty confident of living forever, I guess it's valid), Type 3 and Type 7 depending on the form they adopt, since IT can turn into undead corpses and stuff that can regenerate body parts.

4) Shapeshifting: yes.

5) Invisibility: maybe, depends on how you want to interpret it since the next power overlaps with this one.

6) Illusions: stuff created by Pennywise can't be seen by people they dont want to. Also they affect reality in a manner that only the victim is aware of it but can be killed either way. For example, the wound Ben received from the werewolf was not noticed by his mother.

7) Teleportation: it happens a handful of times, it's always the avatar disappearing and it's described to be followed by the sound of air occupying the space, so it's very legit.

8) Telepathy: it happens many times. Most notably, the "voice from the moon" that Henry hears in his mind. It's not clear the potency of this ability for reasons I will explain later.

9) Mind manipulation: made Beverly's father attempt to murder his daughter, made a guy in the hospital try killing Mike, made Tom kidnap Audra.

10) Spatial manipulation: the house in the street whose name I cannot recall right now was much larger from the inside than from the outside. Can separate people from each other with this power.

11) Biological manipulation: nasty things. Like, seriously.

12) Disease manipulation: adding to the current justification, Pennywise also stated that they could give someone cancer.

13) Blood manipulation: flooded Bev's bathroom with blood.

14) Possession: not quite sure on this one. I'd like a clear cut feat of possession, because Im more inclined to believe that the supposed possession feats are Mindhax.

15) Weather manipulation: responsible for a count-wide storm. Can flood Maine.

16) Technology manipulation: idk.

17) Madness manipulation: Type 3. Okay, the jewel. The crown. The Excalibur. Actually, the avatar's madness manipulation is by no means as impressive as you may think. More about this later.

18) Acausality: type 4. Idk. Need some justificatoin, I guess.

19) Perception manipulation: different people see different things when looking at Pennywise and are affected in different forms. I will detail further how this ability works, later.

20) Immersion: can introduce itself in photos, pictures, and affect people from there. It happens at leats thrice from the top of my head. Once with Richie and Bill, next time with all the gang, and the third time in the TV).

From here, I will be adding abilities to Avatar Pennywise.

21) Limited Death Manipulation: after coming into contact with a rosebush the plant withered and died. Its still present when the losers go back to that location, so it is indeed real.

22) Dream Manipulation: can enter people's dreams, Ben's, Mike's,... Mainly to torment them.

23) Acid manipulation in his werewolf form: the monster's blood acts like an acid, this happens when Bill and Richie are running away from him after escaping the haunted house. The web their "true form" produces seems to have similar properties.

24) Morality manipulation: passive. People in Derry act more violently and the city has a much higher disappearence rate than the rest of similar-sized cities. This happens even when Pennywise is hibernating.

25) Transmutation: transformed Beverly's house into a chocolate house, filled it with candy,...

26) Life manipulation: creates insects and the like. This is how he killed Patrick.

27) Size manipulation: this goes with his shapeshifting ability.

28) Large Size: Type 0 as a plastic statue.

29) Inorganic Physiology in some forms.

30) Flight (transformed into a bird).

31) Sound manipulation: can alter their voice.

32) Self sustenance: Type 1. Pennywise can trasnform into things that don't need to breathe.

33) Fear manipulation: this is a mix with his Madness manipulation in his true avatar form. Also can induce fear in other willingly. Scared the hell out of Mike in his clown form (by waving his hand at him).

34) Precognition / Clairvoyance: knew where Beverly would be and took Henry to that location before she even arrived.

35) Necromancy: can, apparently, rise the dead into zombies and take control of them. Had Belch's corpse drive Henry to the hotel so that he could kill the gang.

36) Resistance to: Mind manipulation (the avatar's mind is literally the same as The Deadlights').

37) Pennywise can use the powers we believe the form it is adopting has.

38) Soul manipulation: refer to "look into my eyes".

39) Possibly Memory manipulation: claimed that they'd wake Audra up and make her forget everything that had happened in Derry.

40) Body control: for obvious reasons.

Well, this is IT for the Avatar.

Now, I will talk about the abilities:

>Madness manipulation: in his "closest to true form" this ability is passive, however, it's just regular 3D stuff that has nothing to do with his 1-A form. As explained in the book, this form is the closest thing our limited human minds could get to imagining the Deadlights. In other words, its a form solely based on the limits of human minds. Note, however, that this can kill non-resistant people on the spot. Also note, that people with 4D mind and above can still be affected by this since it's dependant on how the victim's mind can comprehend the Deadlights and it's not directly a power Pennywise uses.

>The "look into my eyes" ability: this is actually mind/soul manipulation where Pennywise takes the objective's mind/soul to the Deadlights, where the vision of their true form either kills or destroys the victim's mind. As Pennywise's mind is actually 1-A, this is a very potent ability. However, Pennywise does not spam this ability, at all. Only performed it as a way to torture Bill and separate him from the Losers. He needs to feel threatened or have a special need to kill someone to use it. Also, note, that, while using this ability, the avatar will not physically attack the other.


Smol debate:

> "lol1-AimmortalityGG": well, it's explained during the second Chūd that the Deadlights and the avatar Pennywise are linked and that Pennywise was trying to separate Bill from the rest because they feared Bill. Also it is implied that they can kill Pennywise by destroying the manifestation even if they cannot touch or reach the Deadlights. In other words, it is said that if the avatar actually dies, the Deadlights will be either dead or severely injured. This is also the reason why Pennywise held a grudge against the Losers, because they felt the possibility of dying for the first time, feeling fear.

> "YouneedGantohelpyou": you see, Gan, in the book, only intervenes at least twice (I said at least because Im not Stephen King and I can't know if every instance of the Losers showing supernatural abilities like scaring Pennywise by shouting bird names is because of Gan). Gan helped Bill defeat Pennywise during the first Chūd and empowered Richie and Bill to kill the avatar during the second Chūd. However, Pennywise was injured many more times in the book, which leads me to believe that you don't really need Gan's help to kill za clown.

Weakness: must abide by the rules of the shape they have.

Second weakness: as Pennywise's strength comes from people's imagination (for example, our fear of vampires gives Pennywise the powers we believe vampires have), Pennywise's weakness comes from the same source (in other words, believing that a wood stake through the heart would kill the vampire, and doing so, can injure them).

This second weakness is backed up when Beverly shot the silver to the werewolf form and when it's explained that "if the combined minds of people created vampires, it was also the mind of some other, most likely a child, that believed the stake to kill the monsters" (something like that). Also, when Pennywise, shaped like a giant eyeball attacked the Losers it was repelled because the Losers started believing it to be powerless and that they could hurt him. To summarize, truly believing that Pennywise is vulnerable, makes it vulnerable, however, this is difficult because the clown will always adopt the form that causes more fear to the victim.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3428785

This seems fine for right now.

I don't have anything to say about the possession; I've wondered about it myself, since like you said, the instances I can recall struck me as being mind control rather than possession or something. And I'm entirely indifferent to how the Type 3 Madness Manipulation is handled as long as it's explained properly,

What about Acausality? I legit have no clue about it.

I...don't actually recall why that was added anymore. I'm pretty sure it had to do with something that was said in the Discord, but it's been a while since that particular...whatever it was, was talked about by anyone in there.

You can honestly just remove it if you want, at least until evidence of it is found or relocated.

Now it's more complete.

I agree with this.

Also, I skipped Regenerationn because I don't remember instances of Pennywise showing regenerative powers beyond recovering form the first Chūd. And Im not sure what level of regen is that.

Do we give mind manip resistance to avatars of higher-dimensional beings usually? I've never really seen that before.

MrKingOfNegativity said:

This seems fine for right now.
I don't have anything to say about the possession; I've wondered about it myself, since like you said, the instances I can recall struck me as being mind control rather than possession or something. And I'm entirely indifferent to how the Type 3 Madness Manipulation is handled as long as it's explained properly,

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My thoughts haven't changed with any of the new information.

Edwardtruong2006 said:

Do we give mind manip resistance to avatars of higher-dimensional beings usually? I've never really seen that before.

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We should address somehow that regular mindfuccery wont budge Pennywise.

I trust MrKingOfNegativity's sense of judgement about The Dark Tower pages.

We should address somehow that regular mindfuccery wont budge Pennywise.

We're gonna need to add it to a few pages then

Bump

What MrKing accepted can probably be applied.

I had quickly seen your thread, but apart from simple quotes, I didn't see any evidence benefits

If I owned an English, digital copy, I'd bring the quotes.

As I explained in the first part, I own a physical, translated copy.

Proofs of the passages would indeed be

If you have read the book you will recogniza 90% of the things I listed.

I didn't read the books, hence my requests for proof

Enigma Star said:

I didn't read the books, hence my requests for proof

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However, PaChi and King have read the books and both are in agreement, with MrKing being THE authority on The Literature by Steven King.

So, in order to contest them you'd have to disprove them with citations, as not all upgrade threads require fine tuning to one's sensibilities, as one knows the true intention behind such a request.

All I ask is proof of what is said, difficult to debunk something that hasn't even been proven in itself

Enigma Star said:

All I ask is proof of what is said, difficult to debunk something that hasn't even been proven in itself

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It's really not, I can disprove something not proven right now:

Doctor X says "The Sky is red." And doesn't give any citations.

I then go outside and give a citation of "The Sky is blue."

There we go, I just debunked something that wasn't proven.

Except that it debunk something unfounded by some unfounded, which is stupid in the background (Unless for "the sky is blue", you have a scan) ...

Enigma Star said:

Except that it debunk something unfounded by some unfounded, which is stupid in the background (Unless for "the sky is blue", you have a scan) ...

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Uhhh, you do know what an analogy is right? It's not a literal enactment of a scenario, and in the analogy I stated I have a citation of the Sky being blue.

Your original issue was that you can't disprove something that hasn't been proven, but you very well can.

So, for this thread, since it's the authority on Steven King's work vs your own, you have to go out, read the books and see if what they said and which was then reaffirmed by the authority on the topic, is inaccurate or misinformed.

This is why we have the Knowledge members list.

Book, not books.

For everything listed here, he literally just has to go get the IT novel and read it.

Although now I'm sitting here wondering why someone is asking me for scans to use to debate Pennywise elsewhere (which I recall him saying himself) when they haven't even read the book Pennywise comes from. That seems extremely suspect...

You don't know the basics of VS Debatting or what ?

When am I supposed to go to the books to prove what you are supposed to prove ? Do you think I have money to spend afloat ? You aren't competent enough (Without disrespect) to be able to prove what you are saying ?

I really don't even see the point with you.

You've shown outright that you don't take direct quotes from the books as being valid evidence unless they're in "scan" form, regardless of how in-depth the quotes are. Existing evidence for other claims that have been made have been provided, and you simply refuse to take them unless they're provided as an image with the text on it.

Why should anyone have to hand-tailor their evidence to suit your standards? And following that, why should anyone post evidence that you're going to dismiss unless it's dressed up exactly the way you want it? Especially when you haven't even read the book you're acting so skeptical about.

If you're adamant on having it, the IT novel in its entirety can be found here. Read it, and then buy it later if you're so inclined.

>You don't know the basics of VS Debatting or what?

Yes, we obviously do, better yet, do you know why Knowledgeable members list exists?

>When am I supposed to go to the books to prove what you are supposed to prove ?

Now, in your own time, when you're not asking others to do research for you for your debate.

>Do you think I have money to spend afloat ?

Then pirate it if you have too, or get a sample, ask a friend for a copy, subscribe to Scribd for free and read the book there, get audible for free and listen to the audio version of the book.

There's many things you can do.

>You aren't competent enough (Without disrespect) to be able to prove what you are saying?

If we're so incompetent then go read the book and discredit us then instead of moaning here.

I don't know about actually debating a character you aren't familiar with, but asking for scans is honestly perfectly fine and is something I have to do as well when evaluating a verse I am not personally knowledgeable

And "I want proof" doesn't automatically translate to "I want to have a debate with you against your viewpoints", it only means you aren't able to believe the claims yet, not that you want to actively prove them wrong, there's absolutely no reason you have to read an entire book just to ask that

We should probably stop arguing and just apply the accepted revisions.

My problem isn't that he wants proof. It's that he refuses to accept perfectly valid quotes from the novels and instead wants me (or whoever) to screenshot every quote and send it as a scan. Which is not only superfluous, but is also more time consuming than just sending the quotes themselves.

Frankly, my tablet doesn't even have the storage space left on it to be saving multiple screenshots of every feat in the book, especially when a chunk of them are guaranteed to not fit within one screenshot at a time. That's why I switched to copy-pasting the quotes as text instead; on top of being superflous and time-consuming, screenshotting everything instead of just keeping it as text ultimately wastes space on my device for little reason.

Antvasima said:

We should probably stop arguing and just apply the accepted revisions.

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Agreed.

>And "I want proof" doesn't automatically translate to "I want to have a debate with you against your viewpoints", it only means you aren't able to believe the claims yet, not that you want to actively prove them wrong

That's absolutely correct, however, said person has come asking for scans on Pennywise and the Dark Tower series before for the express reason of Debating the topic, while has also claimed to not have read the books, which flies in the face of the entire desire to debate a character you clearly know nothing about.

Let's just apply the changes already like Ant said. This is going nowhere, and the only person who seems to be against said changes just admitted that he hasn't even read the novel.

@King If it's just you writing the quotes here yourself, I actually think it's valid to not consider those as evidence. If you are putting in links to places where those quotes can be easily accessed or doing anything to make what you say directly verifiable then I can see your point, has he actually insisted that even less time consuming methods like these won't work in place of direct scans?

Yes, that seems best.

Btw: If you save some money, and don't need it more for something else, I would recommend getting an SD card for storage in your tablet. That's how I make mine function properly.

@Udl Well I'm just talking in general, I personally would also just try to give him proof while at the same time advise him against debating an unfamiliar character but you do you I guess

If it's a direct quote around a paragraph or more long that's been copy-pasted with the context provided, as well as the book it comes from named underneath it, then that's perfectly valid evidence. Many of our official blogs on the site which deal with text-based verses (most notably Azathoth's Warhammer and Cthulhu Mythos blogs) use that exact same method to post feats, and this has never been an issue. The quotes have been entirely accurate up to this point and multiple people who do have the books have been able to locate them themselves.

And there are no "less time consuming methods", because unless he has his own copy of the book (apparently he doesn't), the only other option besides posting quotes or screenshotting everything myself would be me finding an online copy of the book on a website akin to the one I provided just now, locating every page on that site which has the feats on them (because page counts differ across media), and then numbering out each page to him in order so that he can look at the feats himself. And that is guaranteed to be even more time-consuming.

I have some other things I want to save my money for before I buy something like that, but I've been want to do so. I'm sure I'll get myself one in time.

If PaChi is still here, I can unlock the page for him so that he can make the changes he wants. They're ultimately his proposals, and I'm sure he already has the changes he wants to make in mind as of this thread's posting.