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Simon Belmont vs Grovyle (PMD Explorers) (GRACE)

Modernmyrmidon

Modernmyrmidon

1,643
30
Both Low 2-C

Grovyle has access to all of his optional equipment and TMs

Speed equalized

Simon-8 (Stillwinston, Bobsican, Balor the Warfiend, Tonygameman, Robot972, The Axiom Of Virgo, Theformofacast, Inverted Tempest)

Grovyle-1 (GyroNutz)
 
I don't know, Simon doesn't seem particularly haxed, and they're similar in AP (Simon scales to someone who's >>>>> baseline Low 2-C, whereas Grovyle backscales from someone who is Low 2-C with their heartbeat).
 
Their AP and experience are similar, but Grovyle has far more ranged options (none of which count as magic, bar maybe orbs), IQ skills give Grovyle a mini ultra instinct, and speed amps with agility/quick attack help too. If Grovyle gets weakened enough, it gets a significant boost to its grass moves (some of which heal him upon harming the enemy). So I'll vote for Grovyle.
 
Okay so I'm told the Vampire Killer has Soul Manip with any hit it inflicts, so if Grovyle gets hit once its game over for them cause I don't see any resist to that on the profile. Also what type of acausality does Grovyle possess?
 
Anyone know what type of Acausality Grovyle has? Because Simon might be liable to timestop Grovyle and kill him with Vampire Killer
 
Can Simon timestop people with infinite speed?

The acausality is type 1. Also I'm pretty sure the vampire killer doesn't one-shot most enemies in Castlevania, so it's probably not an instant-killing type of soul manip. In terms of feats, Grovyle tanked a soul destroying beam for a few minutes, and although he had to be saved he recovered within a few minutes to fight Primal Dialga.
 
Okay, infinite speed should likely neg the time stop. I'd say maybe Aeon could but Simon, nah.

Not one shotting most enemies is likely just a game mechanic imo save for the actual antagonists. Can we get an estimate on the potency of that soul destroying beam? Because Vampire Killer's potency is like, able to harm and put down Dracula. Granted its not in one shot but Drac's Soul Manip stuff is likely far above Grovyle's resist and Simon should be able to relate to Drac's level.
 
Random enemies aside, how many actual bosses does the soul-manipping mechanics of the vampire killer come into play?

If we judge soul manip potency by the number of souls it affects, then the beams are featless. Although the fact that Grovyle tanked more than one beam at once for an extended period of time should put the feat above baseline.
 
Well Drac gets his soul destroyed by the Vampire Killer. Most of the bosses are again just gameplay. I'm not sure if we judge potency by number of souls but I think we do considering mindhax potency things. Drac's soul manip is pretty much infinte and his resist should scale to this, yet the Belmonts can destroy his soul with the Vampire Killer.

So yeah I'm not certain Grovyle can walk the whip off, even if its above baseline I doubt his resistence can match the potency.
 
You can't write bosses off as gameplay, since for the most part they're a part of the story that are meant to be on par with the protagonist compared to your regular fodder. You also can't scale people's resistances to the potency of their hax; they're two seperate things.
 
Okay fair enough, regardless Soul Manip on Simon's part should be more than enough to render Grovyle deader than dead unless he can resist at least to millions to potentially infinte that the verse provides. Not saying Simon has Infinite levels of it but he can be around the verse's output at least

Also I should say Simon has attack reflect and resists that, how good is Grovyle's? Btw Vampire Killer can harm abstracts like Death too, just gonna put that in there
 
Are you sure the soul manip isn't just a finishing blow-type move rather than an insta kill on anything that doesn't resist infinitely strong soul manip? I haven't played much Castlevania, but the vampire killer doesn't seem to be treated like the latter.

Grovyle's attack reflection has to be activated, but when it does it reflects all the damage that Grovyle took to the opponent. It can reflect attacks stronger than Grovyle's own durability, but can't reflect killing blows.
 
Vampire Killer has Soul Manip on every hit, that's how we treated it. It was due to that Trevor managed to Incon with Squall and how Simon would defeat Time Eater. I mean no disrespect saying this but we can't downplay it here, it's not a finishing blow mechanic it is active on every hit. In the cases of resistance then it just saps away at them gradually in the verse.

Anyhow that's nice, but again Simon resists Attack Reflection and since Soul Manip is always going to trigger on each hit I wager it will end Grovyle. Maybe we can give him 2 hits before he goes down, but that's as far as I'd estimate him. Feel free to put that beam survival into a CRT as it could give him a possible resistance btw.

Also what does Grovyle open up with? Simon is liable to open up with Vampire Killer and his Attack Reflection let's him deflect projectile attacks thanks to Dracula's ribcage and that even extends to intangible attacks. Never mind the fact that Simon is more than capable of dodging them or swatting them out of the air.
 
Nothing I've seen of Vampire Killer has suggested that though. It's not downplay, if anything you're exaggerating it by scaling Dracula's soul manip resistance to his potency.

Grovyle's an RPG character, so not completely sure, but he'd probably fire moves like energy ball/bullet seed at a range and/or use moves like agility, quick attack, detect and dig to overwhelm Simon with speed and stealth.
 
Right fine we can agree to disagree there if you say its a finishing move and I say it's active on every hit, but I still contest that it works and I apologize if I sounded bad in my earlier post. OP please count my vote thank you.

Anyhow moving from the Soul Manip. Simon's Attack Reflect lets him deflect projectiles due to Dracula's rib cage. So bullet seed and that will bounce off and the energy ball gets nulled prolly by Vampire Killer's passive Power Null.

If Groyvle goes underground then Simon can possibly answer that via Drac's Eye so stealth prolly won't be as useful, I know it says invisible there but it sees through walls too iirc. Grovyle digs, Simon detects and reacts to it. He could say toss holy water for AOE which actually burns so there's that. (It doesn't just work on evil creatures it can burn on contact with things.)

The rest of the attacks should work I feel but getting in close is a bad idea due to the whip and Holy/Fire Manip thanks to Holy Water and Sacred Flame. Simon can use his own projectiles to continue to close the distance and get the hits he needs and as I've said he resists Attack Reflection, I lean on him with a 6/10 majority.
 
What sort of stuff does vampire killer nullify? Also if this is Grovyle with all optional equipment, then he heals from any fire attacks, nullifying them completely in the process. Bullet seed generally isn't treated like a projectile in-game and by game abilities that can reflect 'projectiles', but idk how game mechanics based that is.
 
Op hasn't stated if optional equipment is allowed or not. Even then how good is Grovyle's ability to resist and absorb? Simon's Fire Manip can harm Death, a Type 2 Abstract who has a resistance to it on its profile. Also Grovyle doesn't resist Holy Manip which is also included in the attack.

Imo if Bullet Seed is spitting it at someone that should count as a projectile, so Drac's rib reflects. Here's the stuff that Vampire Killer nulls

Power Nullification (The Belmonts can completely nullify or reflect magic, projectiles, and abillities used against them through their power and the Vampire Killer, The Vampire Killer through its presence alone weakened Dracula's disembodied Soul and powers so much that he was unable to resurrect himself or escape from the sealed castle for several years),

So since it says abilities that prolly includes debuffs done to Simon. You can apparently null things you don't resist according to that time I tried Alien X vs Leon Belmont.

Going back to the soul stuff can I get a link to Grovyle and the attack please as I'd like to see for myself thank you.
 
Fire manip that affects abstracts isn't superior to fire manip that can't even touch a ghost. Unless the abstract is type 1, that's just non-physical interaction combined with fire manip. Grovyle can no-sell fire attacks that are amped by the sun, drastically amped by blaze and amped by other exclusive items all at once, from Pokemon that have amped themselves ten times. If it can't be overcome by that, it won't be overcome by Simon's fire.

Grovyle isn't weak to holy manip though.

The latter part sounds vague, and I'm unsure whether it would count stuff like leaf storm and energy ball. Maybe bullet seed too.

Here.
 
Grovyle might not be weak to Holy Manip but it still damages him.

Even so projectiles get reflected due to Drac's rib. Will check video later on mobile atm
 
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