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Dragon Ball - Upgrades

Kavpeny

Kavpeny

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
815
570
The following upgrades are in relation with this thread. The previously accepted calc has been dismissed in favour of a new calc.

The following should be noted for the new calc:

  • The first three assumptions (a.k.a. white dots being debris, the larger chunks being thrown up by Piccolo's attack and Oozaru Gohan's transformation reverting as soon as the soon as the moon began to break) are presumed to be true.
The stats of characters with the revised calc:

  • The AP and Durability of all protagonists comparable to Saiyan Saga Piccolo, and during Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga
    • Goku (Saiyan Saga): (no change)
    • Goku (Namek Saga): (no change)
    • Goha (Saiyan Saga): Low 5-B => 5-B
    • Goha (Namek Saga): Unknown, likely 5-B, up to Low 4-C => 5-B to Low 4-C
    • Piccolo (Saiyan Saga): Low 5-B => 5-B
    • Piccolo (Namek Saga): (no change)
    • Krilli (Saiyan Saga): Low 5-B => 5-B
    • Krilli (Namek Saga): (no change)
    • Tien Shinha (Saiyan Saga): Low 5-B => 5-B
    • Yamcha (Saiyan Saga): Low 5-B => 5-B
    • Chiaotzu (Saiyan Saga): Low 5-B => 5-B
    • Nail: 5-B => 5-B, possibly 5-A
  • The AP and Durability of all antagonists comparable to Saiyan Saga Piccolo, and those encountered in Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga
The characters who have "(no change)" listed, also have their stats of AP and Durability increased via the new calc. However, the increase is not significant enough to result in a tier change.

All other characters (comparable to or stronger than Frieza's fist form) will not be affected by the upgrade.

If there are any characters which I have missed (from Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga), please feel free to list them below.

P.S.: We have had this discussion multiple times, hence this will be the final change for DBZ Saiyan Saga AP (unless the 17.84 seconds time-frame is explicitly proven incorrect).
 
What I don't understand is how DBZ can be accepted to be some degree of FTL in namek(which is one saga after the saiyan saga) but sub relativistic speeds here is considered an outlier.
 
seems fine to me overall


however, since nail is listed as comparable to some ginyu force members.. i think his revised tier should be "5-B, possibly 5-A"

and guldo should be listed as 5-B (he is currently at least low 5-B)
 
AguilaR101 said:
What I don't understand is how DBZ can be accepted to be some degree of FTL in namek(which is one saga after the saiyan saga) but sub relativistic speeds here is considered an outlier.
Click to expand...
good question
 
also what blast speed outlier? iirc, if we sub in 17.84 seconds for the chaos calc, we get 97,387.89 m/s for the blast wave, which is 281.47 x speed of sound in air at room temperature.....
 
Okay. Thanks to Lord Kavpeny for taking the time to analyse this properly.
 
The Living Tribunal1 said:
also what blast speed outlier? iirc, if we sub in 17.84 seconds for the chaos calc, we get 97,387.89 m/s for the blast wave, which is 281.47 x speed of sound in air at room temperature.....
Click to expand...

The distance for the moon in DB is the same as real life, Chaos angzising the distance was just a terrible attempt to keep Endless Mike from flipping out over the speed result.
 
So there's a few thoughts I have on this:

Iirc Nail was roughly the strength of your average ginyu force member (Jeice burter recoome) so he should likely get their rating.

Also i'm confused regarding piccolos blast speed feat being a outlier?? I feel like i'm missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle here.

This is the sub rel+ feat we rate the saiyan saga for now, right? and there is no speed change between this calc and the one we accepted before, right?

So if it's a outlier, we're downgrading the Saiyan Saga?


If the above is correct I have to also question Piccolo's beam speed being a outlier. I don't think just because other attacks/combat feats one saga later are Unquantifiable means we should claim this one as a outlier. whenever beams in DBZ go into space their speed is alot more easily shown, compared to the usual blasts that travel less than 100 metres where theres no logical way to get a grip of how fast it is. Especially with a proven Lightspeed attack from Frieza we accepted which is really not that far away from when this feat occured.

I double checked the chapters and the Sub Rel and Lightspeed feats are only 100~ chapters away from eachother (208 to 307)

If there were other blasts sent into space without nearly as much speed shown, then i'd be more inclined to agree with Piccolo's feat being a outlier, but i'm confused about this whole situation so if anyone could clear that up that would be good.
 
Guldo change => Okay (changed OP)

Nail change => Okay (changed OP)

About Speed: Hmm...to be honest, I don't remember. Are the Saiyan Saga speeds based off the 17 second time-frame? In that case, it's not an outlier.
 
Lord Kavpeny said:
Guldo change => Okay (changed OP)
Nail change => Okay (changed OP)

About Speed: Hmm...to be honest, I don't remember. Are the Saiyan Saga speeds based off the 17 second time-frame? In that case, it's not an outlier.
Click to expand...
yes they r based of 17.84 seconds
 
Okay. Removed that sentence from OP.
 
Well then, should somebody apply these changes, or do we wait for further input?
 
maybe we could make the changes soon cause speed decision is unanymous, and that is literally all that matter even for determining ap


or maybe if u want we cud wait for a day ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»
 
Well, it is probably best if a some more staff members get the chance to reply at least.
 
wo wo didn't almost evebnody get beat up by the ginyu force tell like goku got there and vegeta got his boostthen those two destroyed them but as i also recall nail is sorta close to first form frieza in the sayian saga
 
Hmmmm. It seems alright, although, aren't there any non-canon characters that would be affected?
 
SomebodyData said:
Hmmmm. It seems alright, although, aren't there any non-canon characters that would be affected?
Click to expand...
hmmm well i doubt it, non cnon profiles iirc are scaled from

1- power levels (above or below frieza's)

2- dr wheelo being eearth buster

3- statements in reference to frieza's final form
 
Can you check if there are any movie characters from before the Frieza saga that might be affected?
 
So, with regards to this topic:

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/piccolo-moon-busts-dragon-ball.18403/ (Link; the above link to Piccolo's calc does not work for some reason)

AP:

It seems that Derp used the KE equation to find the energy required to blow up the moon, and yet, you need the velocity to calculate the KE of an object.

  • Where did the value of 97387m/s come from?
  • How did Derp derive the value of 97387m/s in the first place?
Speed:


Plugging in the 17.84 seconds instead of 4 seconds shown from the anime, we get a speed value of 384400km/17.84 seconds = 21547km/s, or Mach 63322.

Sub-Relativistic+ for speed seems to be fine in regards to the early DBZ characters.

Piccolo's beam speed is not an outlier.
 
Yeah this is really going to be the last time i have to see a DB thread that involves back and forth changing of the Saiyan Saga. -_-

Aside from that, the changes in both that and the Namek saga seem A-okay enough.
 
Looks good to me.

Bardock and his team should be 5-B too.
 
I have also asked the AP revision to be looked at; in the AP section, I noted where the 97387m/s comes from in the calc?

If that speed can't be justified in any way, we should use the GBE of the Moon instead. This would result in a downgrade rather than an upgrade. In the actual manga, we only see a flash of light; we do not see the pieces of the Moon being flying about.

Unless those chunks of the Moon landed on Earth.....
 
Crazystarf said:
I have also asked the AP revision to be looked at; in the AP section, I noted where the 97387m/s comes from in the calc?
If that speed can't be justified in any way, we should use the GBE of the Moon instead. This would result in a downgrade rather than an upgrade.
Click to expand...
umm that comes from radius of moon/ total time

so thats moon's explosion speed
 
The feat itself looks rather iffy, and relies on too many assumptions.

  • The aftermath of the Moon's explosion only shows a flash of light, and the Moon disappears soon after. There were no chunks of the Moon displayed when the Moon exploded.
  • The calc assumes that the Moon itself moved the distance of its radius when it exploded, but the picture for this wasn't shown.
That calc should be rejected imo.

@Azzy: We could use the moon's GBE. This would result in a downgrade instead of an upgrade however.
 
Crazystarf said:
@Azzy: We could use the moon's GBE. This would result in a downgrade instead of an upgrade however.
Click to expand...
Well, if we actually have the option of using the moon's GBE as opposed to making several unfounded assumptions which I have already expressed my disagreement with, but was going to agree to due to thinking it was our best/only option, we should just use the moon's GBE.
 
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