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BB 8D Removal

GalaxianAegis

GalaxianAegis

1,472
160
Recently, BB had an upgrade which increased the dimensionality of her mind to 8D. However, I have an issue with how this is received given the nature of the statement itself.

BB :: However…The Moon Cell, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It's a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it'll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I'll have reached my goal. So I've left all of you in Meltlilith's care. The girl can't really take a joke, but her work is perfect. So take care, senpai. Please entertain me with your useless flailing on this layer too ÔÖÑ

So the statement above states that BB had to bypass a wall that cuts through eight dimensions. This is currently taken as either making the Moon Cell a possibly 8D structure or at least able to simulate 8D structures.

I'm not sure how this really works when you think about the fact that lower dimensional entities threaten the Moon Cell frequently. It's fairly clear that those who gain control over the Moon Cell don't just use any higher dimensional superiority in a battle either. Until it's strictly proven that this is legitimate, I believe that BB's 8D Higher Dimensional Manipulation should be removed from her profile. I still think she has 4D HDM, just not to an 8D scale.

Regardless, I think that the line of thinking that something is "higher dimensional" and therefore can't be interacted with to form a pseudo-resistance is wrong. I believe that the wiki will soon have a revision that will make it more broad, but this line of thinking for BB just seems wrong.
 
I agree with this.

It being Tier 1-C was already debunked anyways, so removing the 8D thing would make it less confusing and less prone to accidental wank.
 
I made a thread about this not too long ago.. and it evolved into a shet storm.. But i agree something is wrong with it.
 
Honestly, I think this is a case of another "dimensions = universes" thing like most fiction. So maybe's not cutting through 8D space, but merely 8 universes or smth.

But yeah I totally agree.
 
nah i rather not get into any arguments of "2-C" or higher, but i find the rating, and having the ability of "Higher dimensional manipulation up to 8-D" on her profile very contradictory, and needs to go..
 
I'm just saying it's an example of "dimensions = universes" like most other stories in fiction, so don't worry I'm not trying to upgrade BB.
 
Yeah agreed, that doesnt makes sense since Kiara can absorbs Mooncell even though she doesnt have any 8D hax
 
It's not dimensions=universes the dimensions=dimensions but there are people who think these dimensions aren't dimensions by the sense of our tiering system for some reason which is why it isn't 1-C

Her mind is still higher d either way as even if you disregard the 8-D stuff the mooncell is at least 4-D

I'll make a thread to prove the 8-D thing eventually, someday, maybe
 
Yeah I can agree with 4D, but not 8D. 4D makes sense, since BB already views time like a book, kinda like how we 3D beings view flat, 2D writings on a book.
 
We are probably going to need some admins to look at this to get approval for this...

although i probably could justify it, but i won't until BB gets a bunch of immortality types, mid-godly or higher regen, non-existsent physiology, regen nullifiction of mid-godly or higher, and abstract existence
 
These dimensions are not universes.

Provide context on how different beings threaten the Moon Cell. Gilgamesh threatens the Moon Cell, but it doesn't mean his presence will passively destroy its Core.

Kiara gained control of the Moon Cell for a moment, and it's debatable how much control she even had. You fight BB once, at the end, and "why doesn't she use higher-dimensional manipulation in battle?" is exactly the same as "why doesn't she use Cursed Cutting Crater in battle and one-shot your servant?". Because the battle doesn't have much detail. Maybe she didn't have a chance and so on. We obviously know that she has the ability to view things from a higher dimensional perspective, which she would use to enjoy you struggling, since you were chasing her past self the entire game and everything you did was pretty much pointless.

If you view 4D the same way 3D beings view 2D, then wouldn't your perspective be 5D?
 
@UpgradeMan

I assume those immortalities would be reliant on the Moon Cell. She had type 9, but it was removed. While technically her having type 9 or type 8 is fine, it's not really combat applicable because when defeated she loses her control of the Moon Cell and with it all those powers.
 
I think it was decided to not be treated as AP, that's why it is higher dimensional manipulation. Therefore, no tier is needed. Even if you decided that tiering is necessary, you could put it at "unknown" since it is superior to 4D to an unknown degree.

I am waiting for more context on the matter of "lower dimensional beings threatening the Moon Cell" before I address that point.
 
Exactly.

Why would you take away something from a profile that is accurate and make that profile less accurate? This higher-dimensionality is integral part of the Moon Cell and Extra CCC story.

What seems to be the real problem here is that people keep viewing it as 1-C.
 
This is the crux of the problem though. You can't treat something as 8-D and not 8-D at the same time. If you're argument is simply: "These aren't real higher order spatial/temporal dimension but we'll count it as such" then that makes no sense.

You get Higher-Dimensional Manipulation by manipulating real higher dimensions in your setting. The statement which gives the ability to her in the first place is vague and isn't referenced anywhere else at any other point.

Velber (and by extension the White Titan), Kiara, and other Servants like the ones in Extella gain control or directly threaten the Moon Cell without the need to go through any higher dimensions as far as we know it.

Like I said earlier though, I have no problem with the Moon Cell or BB by extension being 4D and her getting her abilities up to that level. That seems to be the most consistent way it is described in the games.
 
Even though 8D is only mentioned once, higher dimensionality is present throughout Fate. They are "real dimensions". Nasu has demonstrated the ability to understand the concept of higher dimensions. We see that when certain mechanics are described. That is manipulation of higher dimensions in Nasuverse setting.

More context on how characters threaten the Moon Cell, please. BB and Kiara, the only two characters who had control over the Moon Cell gained control under certain circumstances. Kiara gained it when BB was defeated and the Moon Cell was looking for a replacement. Basically, the Moon Cell chose her. BB had to achieve a lot of things, make herself incredibly powerful, merge herself with the Far Side, hack it for an unlimited amount of time and only then could she control it. Even then, the Moon Cell broke free when she took a beating. She clearly states that this spherical wall is an obstacle. Control was not achieved just like that.
 
Guys, if you really want 8-D to stay, just put a clarification in the Note section fo her profile that states that she just simulates an 8-D space, and the reasons as of why her feat wouldn't qualify for 1-C according to out Tiering System.
 
Honestly, it's either we drop this 8D business entirely, or try to prove that the higher dimensions in the Mooncell work like how they actually should. Here's some things I think would apply based on reading the Higher Dimensional page and looking at actual higher dimensional Tier 1s:

1. Do these said higher dimensions exist completely and infinitely transcendent of the lower ones, and literally cannot be affected by any lower beings?

2. Do the higher dimensional beings view the lower dimensional beings as how we 3D beings would view a flat drawing on a 2D paper or book?

3. Are the higher dimensional beings stated to have infinitely greater power when compared to lower dimensional beings?

4. Optional, but is the higher dimensionality in this setting based on actually dimensional theories that are in line with this wikia's standards on dimensional tiering?

If you can prove those, then a discussion could be warranted. But as what Galaxian said, even lower dimensional beings like Velber don't become 8D or have any higher dimensional powers; yet they still pose a threat to the Mooncell.

4D is possibly the highest we can get. In FGO, Ishtar said that her true, Divine Spirit form is above our plane of existence, which could be 4D and would be consistent with BB being at least 4D. But 8D need more proof, and to be frank it was already contradicted since like Galaxian said, lower dimensional beings like Kiara and Velber have threatened the Mooncell. Unlike say, Mr. Mxy, who is literally unaffected by anything 4D and below, or True Darkseid, who's totally beyond time itself.

Amaterasu does have a statement that she's outside the axis of time, but that's not automatically higher dimensional.

So yeah, I'm still in agreement of removing the 8D thing entirely; unless you can all provide serious evidence. I am open to Fate buffs after all, but we need proof first.
 
question : whats 8D has to do with any other BB of Melt and high servant hax? why their hax scale to 8D?
 
It determines whether or not BB has Tier 1-C mind hax resistance or not. For example, let's say Professor Xavier tried to mindhax BB. It wouldn't even register on BB's mind because her mind exists a full 5 infinites beyond Charles Xavier, since his mindhax is only 3D as a 3D being, compared to BB's 8 dimensional mind.

Hell, even someone as OP as Doctor Manhattan can't tamper with BB's mind IF she had an 8 dimensional mind. Since he's at best superior to Mxy, a 5D being that is totally beyond all of time/4D space.

Basically, this is where "my infinity is bigger than yours" comes in. An actual higher dimensional being isn't just superior to you; they are completely and infinitely transcendent compared to you.

To make it simple, try doing this. Draw the most powerful, hax, and OP character on a paper. You're just a normal human, no hax. Your opponent has VASTLY more hax than you. But I assure you, you'll still win. Why? Because you are infinitely beyond something drawn on a piece of paper. Heck, the stories and writing on a book? It doesn't matter. You can freely skip the end of the book and the know the end of the story, erase character names from the book, or just destroy it entirely. That's because it is flat. 2D.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, like that one SCP who is 2D but can trap 3D people. But normally, a lower dimensional being cannot affect a higher one whatsoever.

This is why BB's mind being 8D is kinda important. It determines her hax.

Hope this helped!
 
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