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Bleach Misconception Question

TheFinalOrder

TheFinalOrder

4,487
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Why is it that some people believe that Zanpakuto does damage to souls while they're in a body when this has never been shown and that there are feats disproving otherwise (Full Bringers).

Does this thought stem from the swords being called "Soul Cutters"?

I ask this because i've seen this tactic of saying Zanpakuto harms the souls in a bid to get around vs marches where characters have Regen. This is blatantly false.
 
IIRC,the fullbringers never really proved or disproved your concept, The vizards however, who at that point In the FKT arc where possessing a body(Gigai) in the human world proved that zanpakutou can indeed damage souls.

E.g in the FKT arc Hiyori almost died from being bifurcated by Gin's Shinso,.... If Zanpakutou don't damage souls when they're in a body then Hiyori could easily slip out of her body unharmed.

Zanpakutou don't literally kill souls though the souls are just sent into the reincarnation cycle.... Which would explain why the fullbringers souls aren't like dead dead. They got freshly reincarnated in the afterlife
 
Zzsax said:
IIRC,the fullbringers never really proved or disproved your concept, The vizards however, who at that point In the FKT arc where possessing a body(Gigai) in the human world proved that zanpakutou can indeed damage souls.
E.g in the FKT arc Hiyori almost died from being bifurcated by Gin's Shinso,.... If Zanpakutou don't damage souls when they're in a body then Hiyori could easily slip out of her body unharmed.

Zanpakutou don't literally kill souls though the souls are just sent into the reincarnation cycle.... Which would explain why the fullbringers souls aren't like dead dead. They got freshly reincarnated in the afterlife
Click to expand...
In FB Arc, it is shown Tsukishima, Giruko and Ginjou are All Killed by Zanpakuto (An Argument for Zangetsu not being a Zanpakuto can be made). Great Physical damage was done to their bodies and yet their souls appeared in Soul Society completely fine.

Iirc, FKT doesn't exist in the Material World and it's not stated Vizards were in Gigai.
 
zanpakutos can damage and bfr souls to the cycle , not destroy them completly.

quincies can destroy souls

Vizard were in gigai since they were in the human world and at no time were they showned to get out of them .

FKT does exist in the material world as it switched places with the real one who was transported to soul society.
 
@TFO

In FB Arc, it is shown Tsukishima, Giruko and Ginjou are All Killed by Zanpakuto (An Argument for Zangetsu not being a Zanpakuto can be made). Great Physical damage was done to their bodies and yet their souls appeared in Soul Society completely fine.

Like I said the fullbringers got freshly reincarnated in the afterlife.,Zanpakutou don't literally kill souls they just go into the reincarnation cycle and get reincarnated in Afterlife and vice versa..

The only people who kill/destroy souls in the bleach verse are quincies(Ichibe and maybe Yama-ji), which is why they where a threat and that was the whole prelude to the TYBW.

Iirc, FKT doesn't exist in the Material World and it's not stated Vizards were in Gigai.


You Remember wrongly,FKT existed in the human world, it was shown... Also the vizards are in Gigai, they where literally interacting with Ichigo classmates
 
The real Karakura Town and it's residents were replaced with the Fake One and swapped into Soul Society, they were indeed in the living world. And the Vizard were in Gigai, as shown by how Ichigo's Class can see Shinji perfectly fine despite only Ichigo, Tatsuki, and Orihime at the time having the ability to see spirits. He's even capable of summoning his Mask and using his Zanpakuto's abilities while still in his gigai using it casually for just floating upside down and having his water bottle inverted as well.
 
Also, something doesnt fit. If Zanpakuto dont actually harm souls but just send them into the reincarnation cycle, then they still shouldnt be accepted as damaging them.

This...was never said. It was said that they specifically don't Kill or Destroy Souls, not harm them. Zanpakuto purify souls and send them to the Soul Society, Hell, or reincarnate them into the Living World. Quincy utterly destroy them. Both can harm them. It's why it's a problem when Uryu potentially hunts too many hollows while Ichigo is powerless as opposed to Kurumadane or even Chad or Orihime doing it.

Also Shinji introduced himself to Ichigo's entire classroom.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
>They were literally interacting with Ichigo classmates.

To be fair, if your talking about Tatsuki, Keigo, Chizuru and Mizurito, they all are able to see spirits so this isnt much of a point.

Also, something doesnt fit. If Zanpakuto dont actually harm souls but just send them into the reincarnation cycle, then they still shouldnt be accepted as damaging them.
Click to expand...
1.It wasn't just the ichigo crew who where able to see them, and it was established that the vizards are in a Gigai

2. The souls are definitely getting harmed and damaged and even killed, but the death isn't a true death,They get sent into the reincarnation cycle and get reincarnated some time later in the parallel world.
 
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Zanpakuto's are capable of harming souls, but not outright killing them, instead of killing them, they purify them if they need to be purified and send them into the cycle. If Zanpakuto's soley "purified" souls instead of harming them Several Soul Reapers wouldn't even be harmed. Ichigo even blatantly makes the statement "only zanpakuto should be able to harm/cut Soul Reapers and Hollows right?" When he makes the assumption that Kisuke just has a normal cane (Spoiler: He was wrong).

Quincies are able to harm and destroy souls as they don't go into the reincarnation cycle when they kill someone.

Zanpakutos = Harm, but not Kill Souls.

Quincies = Harm and Kill Souls.


EDIT: Not to mention Purification soley comes into play when dealing with hollows who are purified from their sins as Hollows, unless they were evil in their human lives as well (Acidwire and Shrieker being contrasting examples).
 
Purifying a soul and actually damaging it are 2 different things. At best, "purify" harms the soul in the sense of destroying the evil that makes it up since its being turned back into a good soul after becoming a hollow.

But as for literally damaging it? Thats not what purification does, so its either one or the other.

The Zanpakutou actually does both, it purifies the soul via soul burial sending to soul society,damaging the soul and killing(not destroying) it, still achieves this outcome
 
@KUKUI

If the soul isn't a hollow or doesn't fights back Shinigami just perfoms the soul burial with the hilt of their zapankutou and purify them
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
That doesnt make any sense. How can you purify a soul and damage it at the same time? Thats not what purification does. Purification is a hax that strictly causes no harm whatsoever to whatever is being purified by you. That goes against what purification in itself actually is.

If anything, this is suggesting Shinigami need to be able to first damage a soul before they can purify it.
Click to expand...
Soul Burial is a Konso, when they hit a soul on the forehead with the hilt of their Zanpakutos. Not to mention, Zzsax in no way said that they do both at the same time. He said they do both.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Since you're refering to Konso, my mistake then.
However, this is still sounding fishy. If the purification specifically comes from the konso application of a Zanpukuto (their hilt), then them being able to damage souls should be pretty weak in terms of quality. Otherwise, if they cant destroy souls but only damage them, what more can they do against a soul when fighting it?
Click to expand...
When a Shinigami kills a soul, said soul continues on through the Cycle of Reincarnation, when a Qunicy kills a soul, they completely destroy the soul - banning it from Reincarnation.

Shinigami can still damage, affect, and "kill" souls, just not erase them.


So to answer your question, Shinigami would kill the soul of their opponent and then the soul would reincarnate.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Im hearing 2 different things on this. On one hand, im hearing Zapakutos only damage the soul and nothing more. And on the other hand, im hearing Zanpakutos can still kill souls, just not permanently.

Which is it?
Click to expand...
Um no you're not? Everyone that's answered the thread has said that they harm souls but don't they don't outright destroy said soul like quincies. Please quote where you're "hearing 2 different things" and not just different wording of the same thing.
 
Zzsax said:
@TFO

In FB Arc, it is shown Tsukishima, Giruko and Ginjou are All Killed by Zanpakuto (An Argument for Zangetsu not being a Zanpakuto can be made). Great Physical damage was done to their bodies and yet their souls appeared in Soul Society completely fine.

Like I said the fullbringers got freshly reincarnated in the afterlife.,Zanpakutou don't literally kill souls they just go into the reincarnation cycle and get reincarnated in Afterlife and vice versa..

The only people who kill/destroy souls in the bleach verse are quincies(Ichibe and maybe Yama-ji), which is why they where a threat and that was the whole prelude to the TYBW.

Iirc, FKT doesn't exist in the Material World and it's not stated Vizards were in Gigai.


You Remember wrongly,FKT existed in the human world, it was shown... Also the vizards are in Gigai, they where literally interacting with Ichigo classmates
Click to expand...
1.) That's not being "Reincarnated". Reincarnation is going into the Cycle of Souls in Bleach. I know Zanpakuto Don't kill souls (Thus I'm not ask8ng that).

2.) I don't remember Ichigo's friends interracting with Shinjiband such in FKT (In fact, they didn't because they were all in SS and could see and Gin and Aizen and that other Shinigami with the Afro).
 
Hst master said:
The real Karakura Town and it's residents were replaced with the Fake One and swapped into Soul Society, they were indeed in the living world. And the Vizard were in Gigai, as shown by how Ichigo's Class can see Shinji perfectly fine despite only Ichigo, Tatsuki, and Orihime at the time having the ability to see spirits. He's even capable of summoning his Mask and using his Zanpakuto's abilities while still in his gigai using it casually for just floating upside down and having his water bottle inverted as well.
Click to expand...
Shinji and Co never interracted with with Ichigo's friends during FKT Arc and they all could see (Well, Keigo and Tatsuki iirc) Aizen and Gin.
 
Naeblis495 said:
zanpakutos can damage and bfr souls to the cycle , not destroy them completly.

quincies can destroy souls

Vizard were in gigai since they were in the human world and at no time were they showned to get out of them .

FKT does exist in the material world as it switched places with the real one who was transported to soul society.
Click to expand...
Problem is, Zanpakuto has never shown to damage souls while in a body and now you're making an assumption about Shinji and co being in a Gigai in FKT.
 
Facts are:

Based on Tsukishima, Giruko and Ginjo's souls being unharmed by Zanpakuto and appearing on SS instead of being recycled in Cycle of Souls, Gin injuring Hiyori proves Zanpakuto do not affect a soul within a body and that the Vizards were not in Gigai.
 
@Professor

....Look at the part you didn't bold in Zzsax's quote Kukui.

@TFO

Shinji literally walks into Ichigo's classroom and introduces himself with everyone being able to see him.
 
@TFO

The Visoreds were in gigai. This is shown by Shinji being seen by everyone in Ichigo's class and Urahara having even created gigai to help them hide from the Gotei 13 and Aizen. Shinji showcased using both his Zanpakuto and Mask in gigai, Urahara and Tessai do the same with their Zan and Kido. Occam's Razor says that the Visored, Urahara etc were wearing gigai unless something states they were not.

Ginjo and co appearing in SS as souls is the next part of the Reincarnation Cycle though. They were living, breathing humans in TLA and proceeded to die at the end of it, hence being souls (the next step in the cycle) in TYBW.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Facts are:
Based on Tsukishima, Giruko and Ginjo's souls being unharmed by Zanpakuto and appearing on SS instead of being recycled in Cycle of Souls, Gin injuring Hiyori proves Zanpakuto do not affect a soul within a body and that the Vizards were not in Gigai.
Click to expand...
The Cycle of Reincarnation means that souls from the World of the Living go to the Soul Soceity and the souls in the Soul Society return back into the World of the Living.

So Ginjo and the rest being in the Soul Society being unharmed after their souls passed on isn't proof of anything other than their souls passed on after they died, which is obvious.

If just the body died, and the soul wasn't affected, they most likely would have just popped out of their died body instead of going into the afterlife. The fact that they continued on into the afterlife shows that their souls were affected.


Also, how does Gin injuring Hiyori prove that the Vizards aren't in their Gigais?
 
Damn it guys, not talking about anything BEFORE FKT ARC. During FKT, Shinji did not interract with Ichigo's friends. None of the visards did.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Damn it guys, not talking about anything BEFORE FKT ARC. During FKT, Shinji did not interract with Ichigo's friends. None of the visards did.
Click to expand...
and they didn't stated that they got out of their gigai beforehand therefore the most simple conclusion is that they were still in their gigai while fighting in FKT as they were inside them the whole time before
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Facts are:

Based on Tsukishima, Giruko and Ginjo's souls being unharmed by Zanpakuto and appearing on SS instead of being recycled in Cycle of Souls, Gin injuring Hiyori proves Zanpakuto do not affect a soul within a body and that the Vizards were not in Gigai.
Click to expand...
This isn't true?

>Ginjo, Tsukishima and Giruko's souls being in SS prove that they didn't reincarnate into Soul Society.

How? They're blatantly there. Not to mention they didn't initially go to SS but Hell, they escaped Hell.

>Gin Injuring Hiyori Proves they're not in a Gigai.

How? Normal People can see them fine and Shinji proves they can summon their masks and Zanpakutos while still in their gigais and he's perfectly visible to Ichigo's Homeroom (So no misconception that by classmates people mean Tatsuki and Co.). Hell Shinji's introduction completely debunks this point.
 
@Anonymous @Warren

There are multiple parts of the Cycle of Souls:

  • Earth > Soul Society > Back to Earth (Etc.)
Yes, Ginjou and co's souls appearing in SS unharmed after they were killed is proof Zanpakuto doesn't harm Souls in a body. If This weren't the case, Ginjo, Giruko and Tsukishima's souls would not be in SS as they would have been killed along with their bodies and their souls would have been reincarnated back onto Earth, skipping SS.

Yes, Shinigami killing someone with their Zanpakuto sends the Soul to SS, but if their Zanpakuto also damaged said soul, killing the person doesn't send their soul to SS. It kills the soul and reincarnates it back on earth.

This is what I'm saying. Zanpakuto doesn't harm souls in a body and this is proven by Ginjou and Co. Hiyori being harmed in FKT proves her soul was not in a Gigai at that time.
 
Except no? Them appearing in SS fine is because they reincarnated. This is the exact same with literally any soul that has been harmed whether in life or death. Pluses in SS (like those that got killed by Zaraki) get reincarnated into the WotL as full, perfectly unharmed souls or else everyone would be missing limbs. Same thing would logically occur with spirits dying in their bodies and going to SS.

You are gonna have to provide a source on that one.

Hiyori getting harmed proves that Zan's harm souls in bodies. You are the one who has to prove she was not in one whem everything points to her being in one.
 
@Professor

Read his Quote. I say that they send them through the cycle and reincarnate in whatever world they go to you even bolded this because you found it "relevant". Zzsax says that they "die" but not a true death and reincarnates sometime later in the parallel world the bold is verbatim and what you left out. Same thing. Different Wording. You're attempting to make we're saying different things.
 
Because gigai are fake bodies that function the same as actual living ones (see Isshin having kids with Masaki). Hiyori was literally split in half and was going to die if not for Unohana. If hopping out of the gigai was all thats needed, then she would have been fine. Hell, everyone would have worn one of Urahara's special gigai to fight in since its basically a free pass on mortal wounds.
 
Yes, Ginjou and co's souls appearing in SS unharmed after they were killed is proof Zanpakuto doesn't harm Souls in a body. If This weren't the case, Ginjo, Giruko and Tsukishima's souls would not be in SS as they would have been killed along with their bodies and their souls would have been reincarnated back onto Earth, skipping SS.

This doesn't make sense. Going to SS or Hell is part of the cycle of souls, you can't "skip it". People have repeatedly said that they can harm souls and that they reincarnate into the next world they go to.

You keep repeating Hiyori isn't in a gigai when Shinji literally disproves this and any notion they need to be out of a gigai to use their abilities.
 
Not being a true death =/= not dying in the first place. They are still dying, they are just coming back. Thats like saying mid-godlys dont die at all because they came back from being destroyed to nothing. It still doesnt change the fact that they still died.

So no, its not the same thing as what you were saying.

False Equivolence. Mid Godly's straight up regenerate on the spot where they are.

What me and Zzsax are saying is simply different wording. Both are saying that Souls ultimately reincarnate into the next world they go to.
 
Except you have a skewmled understanding of bleach here. You don't kill a Soul and it goes to SS like nothing happened. This is an arbitrary assertion on your part and is rejected by Bleach Itself.

Like it literally makes 0 sense.

  • I have a soul in a body
  • My body is killed
  • My Soul goes to SS
  • I become a Shinigami
  • I get killed in action
  • My Soul gets reincarnated back to Earth
  • Rinse and Repeat
Nobody in the same upon getting reincarnated BACK to earth. If you kill the soul, there is no "Getting Reincarnated" in Soul Society. It skips that process BECAUSE YOU HAVE KILLED THE SOUL IN THIS CYCLE.

YOU are the ones needing proof, which you don't have.

  • Zanpakuto killed Ginjou, Tsukishima and Giruko
  • Their Souls were sent to SS
If their souls were killed, it doesn't go to SS, gets reincarnated back to earth. So yes, the fact their souls are in SS means no, a Zanpakuto doesn't harm Souls in a body.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Or another option: When a shinigami enters a gigai, their soul is being bound to an object just like our souls are in our own bodies.

As you already said, a gigai is a fake body that functions the same as a real one, its basically a corpse with no soul in it. So what stops me from saying that when a shinigami enters it to either blend in with the living world or replenish their spiritual power, they also gain the limits of a human as well by having their soul bound to the gigai?
Click to expand...
Why would this be a more likely option when it's based on nothing and needs more assumptions?
 
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