• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Heaven Ascension DIO and Jotaro: Major Downgrade and Revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
9,253
2,731
So, I've been planning to make this revision since late 2018, but because school is a b*tch, and I'm lazy AF, I didn't do so. Now that it's summer, I have all the time in the world to waste without any repercussions whatsoever for the next 3 months, so I can finally make this CRT. Let's get started:

Dio's 2-A Tier and Justificatio
So let us debunk his 2-A AP justification bit by bit, which contains a ridiculous amount of misinformation:

Multiverse level+ with Reality Overwrite (Overwrote the abilities of Johnny's Tusk Act 4 and Giorno's GER. Is also more powerful than Pucci's MiH and Valentine's D4C. Was overwriting the entire JoJo reality, which has been stated to contain an infinite number of parallel universes. Overwrote Funny Valentine's existence so that he no longer existed anywhere in the multiverse, completely nullifying D4C)

  • Overwrote the abilities of Johnny's Tusk Act 4 and Giorno's GER
None of those Stands have any 2-A feats or abilities (or at least not anymore)

  • Is also more powerful than Pucci's MiH and Valentine's D4C
Never directly stated to be more "powerful" (especially since in Jojo what makes a Stand "powerful" is relative") though I kind of see where this is coming from since TWoH is treated by everyone as a big deal, and even Valentine got overwritten out of existence.

  • Was overwriting the entire JoJo reality, which has been stated to contain an infinite number of parallel universes
While the Jojo Multiverse does indeed contain infinite realities, Dio never overwrote all of them in such a scale as the justification above implies: the only thing he did was causing a few anomalies throughout the multiverse (and none of them were reality-ending stuff, let me tell you), which is just 2-A range. In addition, Dio's plan was never to destroy/warp the entirety of the multiverse, just to get all of the 36 sinners'souls and overwrite the main world, which is just one reality out of infinite.

  • Overwrote Funny Valentine's existence so that he no longer existed anywhere in the multiverse, completely nullifying D4C)
Again, reality-warping a single person from infinite realities is just RO/EE with 2-A range, not 2-A AP. Even if you pull the more convoluted justification that "he warped the worlds to erase Valentine", it's still just 2-A range and not AP, as he isn't RW-ing the entirety of the multiverse.

Also, another thing that was used in the past to further justify TWoH's Tier was the fact that the Holy Corpse was previously rated as a 2-A shield that Valentine had, and since Dio erased valentine from infinite worlds, Dio would be able to erase infinite 2-A shields across a 2-A multiverse. To quickly get this out of the way:

  • The Holy Corpse isn't 2-A anymore
  • Valentine never had any Corpse Part in the game nor in his battle against Dio, let alone the full Holy Corpse
  • As far as I know, the Holy Corpse only exists in the main world, and there are no alternate versions of it/its parts in the other worlds.
His new Tier
This is a bit complicated, but I believe that TWoH should be split into two keys:

The first one would be Base TWoH, and he has a Creation Feat:

Here you can see the description of the arena he created

This arena right here, as stated, contains a huge Black Sun. There are some lights in the sky, but it's unclear if they are Stars, other Meteorites described again in the same picture or just Dots of Light that are there for show.

Either way, it's High 4-C or 4-A.

Onto the second key, it would be where he absorbed 34 to 35 of the Sinners' Souls:

Throughout the entirety of the game, it's stated that with all of the 36 souls, he would be able to Overwrite the Main World into his own reality (though whether this process would be instantaneous or over time, it's not mentioned).

Still, Dio never got all of the 36 souls, as it's heavily implied that Jotaro was one of them, and I tried counting the other souls he had absorbed: they weren't 36.

Regardless, the souls he had absorbed made him completely re-charge TWoH's s ability, allowing him to warp the scenario in the 3rd video at 1:25:53). Here, you can see how he warped the whole map and background to resemble his previously mentioned Over Heaven Arena. However, it's unclear whether he warped just on a 4-A scale or if he warped the whole universe. It's best to discuss its true power in this very CRT

Regardless, TWoH's RO is definitely more powerful than his previous state.

Other abilities
There are some issues with other things in HA Dio's profiles, such as some of his abilities/resistances:

  • Time-Stop that works on people with infinite speed: Dio never time-stops in the game's cutscenes, and he only does that sometimes during gameplay, and when he does, it's only to move around or to get close to the opponent during his Ultimate Attack. In addition, Dio never really canonically time-stops anyone with actual infinite speed like GER, and if it were to, you could argue it being Game-Mechanic.
  • "Indefinite" Time-Stop: Again, a lot of people, even outside of the wiki say that Dio's time-stop doesn't last only 5-11 seconds, but it can last as much as he wants to. I'm almost certainly convinced that this is just a rumor: nowhere in gameplay or in HA Dio's power description it's ever stated that his time-stop ha no limits, or that he modified his Stand to have no such limits. I even checked the Jojo Wiki, and there it's actually said that HA Dio's time-stop's extension is purely unknow.
  • Resistance to GER's abilities and Infinite Rotation: This should just be changed to Power Nullification against Causality Manipulation and Willpower Manipulation, as it's actually shown that Dio didn't openly resist those abilities, but that he overwrote them so that GER couldn't use them, essentially completely nullifying those powers (in the 3rd video below, at 6:45). Giorno, who is very knowledgeable on his Stand's abilities in this game even stated how TWOH works by comparing it directly to GER (still in the 3rd video, at 12:15 at first, and later in more detail at 22:35).
This would still be the case for Infinite Rotation, as Dio nullified it before it could have had effects on him.

Small Additions

  • Corruption: Dio can corrupt others by touch (like all of the other abilities of TWOH), or by summoning some sort of purple Mist/Aura thing. So this would be type 2 Corruption.
  • Summoning: Dio can summon that thing that I mentioned above, and it can Corrupt (like in the second video, at 1:29:57) or Soul Steal (like in the 3rd video, at 1:23:35). He also summoned Enyaba (still in the 3rd video, at 9:56).
  • Creation: Dio created the Above Mantioned "Over heaven Arena".
  • Power Bestowal: Dio can grant others, like everyone who he has corrupt, the ability to Travel through time and worlds. It's shown pretty much everywhere in the 1st and the 2nd video.
  • Holy Manipulation and Corruption Negation: (In the game) the Corpse Parts, which Dio held almost all of them at one point, are capable of curing the effects of Dio's own corruption.
  • Resistance to Transmutation: Still because of the Corpse Parts (but in actual Jojo canon here). More info here. They also grant Dimensional Travel, but Dio already has it, though I guess it would still apply to Jotaro before getting RO.
  • Pieces of the Holy Corpse as Occasional Equipment: Dio at his peak, had all but one pieces of the Holy Corpse, but not all of them, so no Love Train. EoH Jotaro also had one of the Corpse Parts.
Videos of the Full Story mode
Here's the whole Story mode of the Game (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Eyes of Heaven), divided into 3 videos. By watching them, you can understand the whole situation.

Sometimes in what I wrote above, you can see me mentioning "1st" "2nd" and"3rd" videos. I'm referring precisely to those ones, which I'll now link and divide:

Conclusion

Those things would apply to:

 
None of them contained substantial arguments and were more-so discussions rather than direct revisions.

Also, other than agreeing or disagreeing, we should discuss "amped Dio" RO's Tier, which is the only thing I don't have an opinion on (other than it not being 2-A, of course).
 
Well didn't he need all of the 36 souls in order to rewrite the universe? So I think he should just get the High 4-C because his own pocket dimension.
 
That Pocket Dimension, as I said above, could be 4-A because there seem to star the (though they aren't confirmed to be that).

Also in the final warped map, there are also stars (though we don't know if they were already there or if they were Dio's creation.
 
I disagree with that since he is simply erasing Valentine's alternate selves, not an infinite amount of things in one world.

It's a more haxy thing.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Okay, seems mostly fine. Can't we scale TWoH from MiH though?
Those Stands are completely different in nature, and Heaven is a very unexplored concept. Scaling one to another isn't the best idea to me.

And again, to achieve a feat on MiH's scale, he needed all of the 36 souls, which he never got (not all of them, at least).
 
I see.

Considering the only other heaven stand in the series also has universal abilities, I feel like Low 2-C warping for TWOH is reasonable. Let's call the improved TWOH The World Over Heaven Over Heave
 
I feel like amped HAD should be Low 2-C with RO, I don't see why he would be any he would be inferior to a stand that one of his worshiper's owns
 
Sadistic Sleuth said:
I feel like amped HAD should be Low 2-C with RO, I don't see why he would be any he would be inferior to a stand that one of his worshiper's owns
I don't doubt that TWOH could be Low 2-C, but unless there are feats or statements it doesn't qualify. Besides, using the logic that Dio is his leader so he should be stronger than Pucci's Universe reset is grasping at straws
 
DMB 1 said:
And again, to achieve a feat on MiH's scale, he needed all of the 36 souls, which he never got (not all of them, at least).
This is what holds me back the most from giving Amped TWoH a "possibly/likely Low 2-C" key.
 
MiH is not Low 2-C.

I have said this before, I will say it again. MiH is just the stand that lets you speed amp yourself to whatever level and can then reach the end of the universe. Resetting the universe is not MiH's ability. It's not MiH that is forcing the universe to reset. It is just reaching the end of it. Universe mechanics in Jojo say that "if you reach the end of the universe you can reset the universe". That part is not MiH's doing. It definitely doesn't scale.

So while MiH is capable of a Low 2-C feat, nulling MiH is not Low 2-C.
 
Every other CRT nowadays seems to either be making JoJo weaker or giving (at least trying to give) Rimuru more abilities ovo.

Anyway everything here seems valid and legit so I agree.
 
GER still made it to HAD before getting overwritten. There was even a visual que when TWoH grabbed GER's first and nullified it. So he has to resist willpower manip to even raise a finger.
 
Sir Ovens said:
GER still made it to HAD before getting overwritten. There was even a visual que when TWoH grabbed GER's first and nullified it. So he has to resist willpower manip to even raise a finger.
That's an incredible assumption that GER even used it's ability before getting overwritten.
 
It's passive? TWoH nullified the infinite death loop punch. But the willpower thing is something that happens naturally.
 
Sir Ovens said:
It's passive? TWoH nullified the infinite death loop punch. But the willpower thing is something that happens naturally.
GER has no offensive passive. The infinite death loop only happens if he dies. And will manip only happens if the death loop comences from what it has shown.
 
No? Willpower manip is completely passive, that's why Diavolo's time erasure didn't affect it at all.
 
Sir Ovens said:
No? Willpower manip is completely passive, that's why Diavolo's time erasure didn't affect it at all.
It's not will power, it's just rewind. And that's "defensive" not offensive. He doesn't have a passive "offensive" hax, only deffensive (which i can get around to making it so that it's not passive at all), when something affects Giorno or GER.
 
Yes, and when TWoH raised its first to counter GER, that was an act of aggression towards GER, something that should be nulled.
 
I as well agree with the downgrades. And they would be 4-A, not High 4-C.
 
DMB 1 said:
I disagree with that since he is simply erasing Valentine's alternate selves, not an infinite amount of things in one world.

It's a more haxy thing.
I mean, isn't what we're trying to do is to define the strength of a hax ability?

It makes sense imo. Infinite Valentines=Infinite amount of people=infinite amount of mass= infinite amount of energy.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Yes, and when TWoH raised its first to counter GER, that was an act of aggression towards GER, something that should be nulled.
That's completely uncalled for. GER was left in time stop for several moments before it even started to do something. Idk where you got "you think you passively rewind against GER" when it has never actually done that.
 
Explain how GER was able to move in erased time then when nothing else could.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top