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Super Sonic 4-A Return Continued

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Oblivion_Lightning

Oblivion_Lightning

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Continuation from this thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2782300#50

Every attempt to reach a conclusion continuously goes back and forth and we can fit millions of threads with this idea lol,so I propose we compromise and say possibly 4-A as both sides have said they're ideas and a consensus will likely not be reached soon.The reason as to why I want such a fast conclusion is that I'm currently writing a story and will be submitting it to a creative publishing center and If it goes through I will become an official author and I'm mainly focused on writing but the debating on this topic is extremely compelling and causing me to be distracted lol.That's why I want to reach a fast consensus but you should not alter your beliefs for my benefit as I'm just proposing a quick compromise and forgive me if I won't be available on the thread as I'll be busy writing.Thank you

Agree with Compromise:Smashor,Oblivion Lightning,ShakeResounding,Theuser789,DaBoiWhoOwnsMods,Neon Battle Bind,Zamasu Chan,Violet Void100

Against:DarkDargonMedeus

Unkown:The real cal howard(don't know if he agrees or disagrees with compromise)
 
So "Varies. At least 5-A (Dark Gaia stuff) to possibly/likely 4-A (Whatever description here) to 2-C (Solaris blah blah)"?

I will admit that a major problem with some Sonic threads is that a compromise is usually the last thing people want to do on either sides. Whether or not this is accepted isn't up to me, but this is probably the most logical solution to me.

If more arguments are gonna be made then so be it, but I do like this outcome compared to the other alternatives. I would prefer to keep the 5-A low end instead of having 4-A as the low end, but I'd still like 4-A to be recognized within his tiering.

That's just my two cents.
 
^I wouldn't mind a compromise.

Personally, I just want these bijillion threads to be over and done and while votes don't matter, let's face it, that's most likely what it's gonna come down to (like that 2-B Sonic thread) and if not that, a staff member comes in and closes it without any general consensus.
 
Nah, we don't hate strong hedgehogs, we just don't believe the hedgehog is as strong as everyone says he is.

Anyway, I still disagree with using the guidebook statement for the sole reason of assuming Metal Overlord and intern all the end game mechs are 4-A. Even official are often inconsistent as Eggman always says each weapon is his greatest creation. Including Egg Breaker and Egg Dealer, which Egg Dealer also has the same guidebook statement despite it being literally stomped by Base Shadow and is overall weaker than base Dark Gaia and Diablon.

Cal addressed more points regarding Sidious as actually having his own 4-B feats; which is another verse Matt and Ever are well versed on. And Technodrome also has a statement about being Shredder's most powerful creation despite his existing Tier 2 reality warping technologies. So it would be a double standard to except Metal Overlord's based on the same vague statement and not except that.

Cal also mentioned the details of having a superweapon stacked on another superweapon was the only reason the 4-A feat happened. Which in turn is a massive Glass Cannon that has been damaged and destroyed by attacks less than Tier 5. And the 5-A to 4-A to 2-C was proposed a while back, but agreed to be far too iffy and that the 5-A to 2-C is all that's needed.
 
@DarkDragon Just don't respond to any comments that seems to be some sort of insult to this wiki. Because once you do, the other side won't back down, and letting that escalate it is going to be a problem.
 
@MyHero, I'm just playing along. I know they're joking. Admins need to have fun too.
 
I will be busy, so I won't be able to reply, but Overlord statment is from a guide, meanwhile those other machines statments are only from Eggman, that's a diferent case, there's no guide book which says that the Egg breaker and the Egg dealer were his greatest inventions, only Eggman says in game, it was even me who linked it

The FEB wasn't stacked on the Death Egg, it was simply on it because it was the best place to built it, early in the game in Knuckles story it was on his lab, Eggman simply put it later on the Death Egg because it was the best place to fire it.

There's also the fact that Eggman would use his strongest tecnology on his top tier machines and he also thought that beating Overlord was impossible without the emeralds, the same to Ultimate Gemerl, not just the statment is the proof.

The FEB was never damaged and I already explaneid in the previous thread why it would scale to it's durability, also it was 5-A to 4-A to 2-C but it was changed, that's why Smashor made the previous thread, also it was Zamasu who gave the idea against 4-A and now he agrees with likely 4-A

A good compromise would be "likely 4-A"
 
While people are arguing about 2-B Sonic and I think he is it's been discussed already

3-A Base would be sweet as a Sonic fan but it's a massive outlier and very unlikely especially when 4-A Base was an outlier in it's self

Anyway,most seem to agree with "likely" although DDM doesn't agree with just "4-A" I wonder if he agrees with "likely 4-A" as a conclusion and compromise seems to be the best way to solve this.Anyway I gotta finish writing my Book so I'll be busy.
 
Everyone here I believe should get likely 4-A.Anyway I gotta go lol

-Metal Sonic/Metal Overlord:has been stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation he made by himself placing him above the likes of the Final Egg Blaster Although this might be hyperbolic on Segas part.

-All Super Forms:Super Sonic,Tails and Knuckles fought and ultimately defeated Metal Overlord.

-Perfect Dark Gaia: Fought both Super Sonic and the Gaia Colossus

-Final Hazard: Fought Super Sonic and Super Shadow

Essentially every boss that battles and contendd with Super forms that isn't Low 2-C or 2-C.Except Perfect Chaos tho
 
Final Egg Blaster has 0 durability feats, and there's no proof on why it would have durability equal to its destructive capacity. Carrier from StarCraft is only Low 5-B with one weapon, Sarah Kerrigan is also stated to be more powerful than the Carriers in her regular Queen of Blades form but she's not Low 5-B in either that or her Primal Queen of Blades form.

Eggman stating that even the Chaos Emeralds wouldn't been Metal Overlord or Ultimate Gemerl could be use as a double argument that even the Final Egg Blaster has more firepower than the Chaos Emeralds. Plus, Eggman was actively trying not to destroy the planet with the Egg Blaster, and it was Emerl who turned berserk due to witnessing the image of a stellar collapse that was going to use the Egg Blaster to destroy the planet. Which even Eggman tried to stop him from doing that.

Also, a lot of those bosses are below Metal Overlord, also, Mephistus actually said it was actually Perfect Dark Gaia who did the 5-A feat millions of years ago during his old battles with Light Gaia on another thread, and that it was Eggman's Chaos Cannon powered by "All 7 Chaos Emeralds" that did the feat in the game's opening.

I still think making everyone 4-A or even likely 4-A is pushing it. There's just no proof that Metal Overlord has more firepower than Final Egg Blaster or even durability comparable to FEB's full power. Cal already laid out other details.

I could also ask Matt to comment here directly, but he's busy ATM.
 
I proved that if Overlord was stronger than the FEB he would have 4-A durability, the FEB durability isn't important.

Eggman said that without the emeralds they would't beat them, not that the emeralds couldn't beat them, that's completely diferent, that implies that Super Sonic was stronger than all Eggman's inventions in those two fights, including the FEB.

It was a weakened Dark Gaia, it's made that very clear in the game, the cannon simply woke him, can you link Mephistus comment? I don't renember him saying that at all.

There's proof that you keep refusing, Eggman thought that it was impossible to beat Overlord and Ultimate Gemerl without the emeralds, the machines that fought Super Sonic should logicaly be as strong as the FEB for having the same amount of prep time and similar purposes, and the statment from the guide which put Overlord as Eggman's strongest invention, which would include Ap

Edit: found Mephistus comment but nothing that he says supports only 5-A Sonic, the canon explicitaly uses negative energy which is weaker than positive one, also it's main objective is to awaken Dark Gaia, he even says that doesn't mean that he's only 5-A

Here's his comment: "Also, Eggman was the one who did the whole "expose the molten core" with the laser. Dark Gaia did nothing but emerge and gets nothing of scaling from the laser directly. He scales to breaking the planet apart in his final form via his past history which only going by that isn't even fully planet level. He's indirectly scaled back to Super Sonic who scales to the laser and other Earth busting stuff himself."

That comment only proves that 4-A is consistant for positive emeralds, since the Dark Gaia that Sonic defeated only has statments, he can still have 4-A Ap and yet simply want to destroy the planet, that's his objective, there's no reason why he would destroy something else, it's like Dragon Ball when the characters have 3-A Ap and yet their attacks only destroy the Earth sometimes, and the Cannon only used negative energy with the purpose of awakening Dark Gaia, unlike the end bosses which were built to be the strongest, making sense that he would built them with 4-A Ap, also awakening Dark Gaia probaly needs Chaos Energy since he wasn't awakened in Advance 3 when the planet split apart with one emerald
 
I agree to a compromise. 4-A comes from a reliable source, but said source can on occasion be inconsistant. I say we make it this (Adding extra links where needed):

At least Large Planet level (Even at their weakest, the Chaos Emeralds power allowed Sonic to defeat Perfect Dark Gaia, who is far superior to it's base form who did this) to Multi-Solar System level (Defeated Metal Overlord, who is stated to be Eggman's strongest creation, meaning it's likely stronger than the Final Egg Blaster. Eggman goes after the Chaos Emeralds to use as batteries for his machines constantly, despite being able to build machines like the Final Egg Blaster) to Low Multiverse level (When fully charged with positive energy, he was able to defeat Solaris alongside Super Shadow and Super Silver. Defeated the Egg Salamander and Egg Wizard alongside Burning Blaze. Easily defeated the Time Eater alongside Classic Super Sonic and reversed all the damage it caused across multiple timelines)
 
Again, it's just a hyped up statement absolutely no different than any other statement, and using it would be giving Sonic way too much special treatment compared to other verses. Mephistus said it on this comment about the Dark Gaia stuff. Also, the cannon was still amped by all 7 Chaos Emeralds. There's still absolutely zero proof that anyone could survive a direct hit from FEB.
 
The Final Egg Blaster was not amped by the emeralds. And if it was, then that's just more proof for 4-A.

Also, last I checked, statements are generally used.
 
I never said Final Egg Blaster was, I said Chaos Cannon from Sonic Unleashed was. But without or without Final Egg Blaster, 4-A is super inconsistent.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I never said Final Egg Blaster was, I said Chaos Cannon from Sonic Unleashed was. But without or without Final Egg Blaster, 4-A is super inconsistent.
Click to expand...
It's not inconsistant when it's the only feat for the top tier machines
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Again, it's just a hyped up statement absolutely no different than any other statement, and using it would be giving Sonic way too much special treatment compared to other verses. Mephistus said it on this comment about the Dark Gaia stuff. Also, the cannon was still amped by all 7 Chaos Emeralds. There's still absolutely zero proof that anyone could survive a direct hit from FEB.
Click to expand...
Also it's not a hyped statement when it's from an offical Manual

Compromise is the only way we can honestly conclude this.I understand the reasonings for support and disagreement and the best way to go is honestly "possibly".Also let's be real as I doubt anyone's pushing for 4-A Super Sonic to shoehorn in a upgrade when Super Sonic at max is 2-C
 
And it comes from a machine far more powerfully demonstrated than everything he's ever constructed, heavily indicating the possibility of an outlier. Even things far more concrete and consistent have been passed as outliers. And Dragon Ball is false equivalency; that has Ki Control and other precision strikes which Final Egg Blaster doesn't have any of those stuff period. It's just pure destructive power like many of Eggman's other inventions. Eggman also requires requires numerous amounts of prep time just to perform Tier 6 to Tier 5 feats; making 4-A even more inconsistent. Eggrobo also required prep time, but that's no higher than 5-B.

And again, assuming Advance 3 using only one Chaos Emerald to split the Earth is pure headcanon and baseless assumption. Especially if the very plot of the game strongly contradicts it, same with the regular showings of anything less than 7 Emeralds not even being close to planetary. No one's arguing against 2-C, it's just there has to be direct feats for it to be consistent. Planetary stuff is also way more consistent for Sonic's final bosses and even the planetary feats are implied to require those same villains to go all out.
 
Ki Control is only a headcanon, also destructive potention is diferent from Ap, otherwise Sonic wouldn't be 6-A since his attacks only destroy walls.

But those robots were beatten by base Sonic, I am arguing about the ones that fought Super Sonic. Also all of those robots are 6-A via scaling to base Sonic and Eggman didn't have prep time to built the Eggrobo, he only had the amount of time between Sonic though he was dead in Lava Mountain to Sonic beating the Deadly Six, meanwhile those other robots had the entire game to be built, the same as the FEB

The Advance 3 is only one, you are the one using headcanon, Occam's razor would imply that he only used one because that's what we see, that's also being discussed in the 5-B thread and almost everyone disagreed with you

I already explaneid multiple times why 5-A isn't consistant, most of them comes from scaling, especialy the ones that I am arguing are 4-A, if Sonic gets bumped to 4-A almost all of them would be upgraded, the tier 5 feats are all statments that don't rule out 4-A, simply wanting to destroy the planet and only that doesn't make you only 5-B, Ap is diferent from destructive potention
 
It's not inconsistant when it's the only feat for the top tier machines

Reposting this, it's not a outlier because it's the only feat of Super Sonic level machines
 
I know full well the difference between destructive and AP, and have nothing against Base Sonic being Tier 6, but that's a different story. The fact is, Final Egg Blaster's power depends on how much it has been charged; it took a long time to perform its 4-A feat, and 60 seconds of charging was going to destroy the planet.

5-A is consistent with the constant "Destroy the planet" statements and isn't too far above 5-B. Just because I only see 1 fox out my window, does that mean there's only 1 fox in my yard? Of course not. The game clearly shows when you start playing the game that Eggman has taken all 7 Chaos Emeralds proving he did have all 7 in his possession. And the guidebook says all 7 are needed to restore it because one Emerald is not powerful enough to restore a planet wide splitting feat. It's literally the same boat as Dark Gaia's feat; 7 Chaos Emeralds are needed to restore the planet; so it makes sense that 7 was what caused the splitting of the planet.

If the most consistent showings; feats and statements, range from High 6-A to 5-B to 5-A, and then suddenly there's one random 4-A weapon that's never directly been used on anyone to properly scale, the production of the 4-A weapon becomes and outlier. We only accept statements if they're direct, specific, and/or elaborate. And Metal Overlord's is too general, not specific and not explicit and talking about what type of power. And it's also not elaborate.
 
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