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Questioning Crossover Profiles Rule

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ShiroyashaGinSan

ShiroyashaGinSan

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So scaling non-canon characters to canon ones are no-no but we just stumbled to this.

So in BBTAG discussion, Lightin and I have a debate around scaling the terminology of Blazblue to BBTAG. The problem is that the terminology of the verse was ripped from the canon then slapped it into the crossover. They didn't change anything. Nox Nyctores is still Nox Nyctores. Azure is still Azure. Boundary is still Boundary. Phantom Field is still Phantom Field. Hell, one of the main elements of the plotline, that being Phantom Field, has the same process of creation with Es or Meifang's Phantom Field.

We do scale the terminology of the series to non-canon series if it's exactly the same, we use it to many non-canon spin-offs, look at Dragon Ball or One Piece. Because they are portrayed as the same, we pretend that they are the same. Like how Android 21 has Saiyan Powers even if DBFZ is non-canon. Same with non-canon One Piece movies.

So I ask this. If a non-canon spin-offs/crossovers just ripped off the same terminology from the canon with absolutely 0 changes, do the terminology get scaled at all? This is quite a problem so whatever the answer will be, add it to Crossover page, this is annoying to deal with.
 
The problem wasn't just PI or having some PI powers, just having them all without it showing them is the problem. Same for the fact that it shouldn't have mid godly scaling from canon Noel
 
Rip, I was in the process of making a thread. Let me just copy-paste what I was about to say:

"Been brought up in the Cross Battle Tag threads, so let's actually settle it here. Our standards regarding what kind of crossover characters to allow are either inconsistent or have been vastly ignored/misinterpreted.

We currently just don't have any rules that regulate those. The Crossover page only covers scaling between different verses, and the Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles page doesn't cover crossovers directly, only non-canon spinoff.

The closest we have is our 4th rule about Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles, which states that:

"Franchises which contain non-canonical spin-offs/movies/videogames, etcetera, each with their own continuities and feats, yet not to the extent that Marvel and DC Comics do, should only be allowed profiles for notable original characters from said spin-offs, and not alternate versions of canonical characters, unless they are very prominent and notable."

"[..] If the alternate non-canonical version of a character is notable enough in the sense of having their own feats, and a different role and purpose, then it is possible that profiles for them can be created."

Now let's look at our category for Crossover Characters. I think it's fair to say that very few of those profiles are actually notable enough to warrant having their own profiles. Characters who are pretty much the same except stronger due to fighting stronger characters are everywhere.

So I think that we should add a rule that specifically covers Crossover versions of characters and which ones would be allowed.


Now in my opinion, this rule should be the same as the non-canon versions rule. The crossover version should be significantly different than the original version. Not just in term of sheer stats, but also preferably their story, their abilities, how they're treated, etc.

So characters who are just the original version but dropped in a crossover, with little to no differences, shouldn't be allowed. This includes the Mortal Kombat DLC profiles, most Smash Bros. profiles, etc.

Characters that should stay (again, imo) would be, for example: All original characters, Godzilla (Marvel Comics), as it's far different than the "original" Godzilla and comes from a franchise with many different Godzillas anyway, some Smash profiles like R.O.B. due to being partially, if not entirely defined by the crossover they're from and Unknown Specimen 1, again due to being treated vastly differently from the original character and having different showings and abilities."
 
Even as noob as Terumi can do self-observation, let alone the guy who can PI the Boundary.

Everyone in the canon never shown all of PI powers by themselves, they just can and we scale all of it to them. PI isn't a power that you get new applications from by sheer force or training. Only thing that separate them is scale.
 
PI is defined in the canon of Blazblue, it was established as having many uses for an observer, that's why scaling them in canon is fine. Scaling PI directly from canon in a crossover is going against the rules, same reason why Ultron Sigma is almost haxless. The PI powers it has shown are fine, i'm just against literally taking them 1:1 from canon
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Now in my opinion, this rule should be the same as the non-canon versions rule.
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I would have thought crossover characters are non-canon versions.

The suggestion doesn't sound bad in any case.
 
Yet we'll scale the terminology? No, it's contradictory, we scale it, but at the same time, we don't scale it. Ultron-Sigma is a special case cuz Ultron just changes abilities in different canons.
 
It didn't show most of the powers it has under PI and its no way in hell 2-A or has mid godly directly scaling from canon. The rules say that you need to scale from the crossover, i.e the feats that are already present in the game
 
I kinda don't agree with "you need to have different origin/how they're created" to be accepted because I know a person that should definitely have profile while being crossover character, acknowledging that she is from another verse. That being Eltnum (Under Night In-Birth).
 
LightinAnt said:
It didn't show most of the powers it has under PI and its no way in hell 2-A or has mid godly directly scaling from canon. The rules say that you need to scale from the crossover, i.e the feats that are already present in the game
Click to expand...
They have the same terminology. We do that to Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto, and many more non-canon spin-offs. Unless you tell me that they are wrong.
 
@Saikou Yes, BBxTag characters are entirely different from their canon counterparts, different skillsets, different abilities, different feats, different everything
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
LightinAnt said:
It didn't show most of the powers it has under PI and its no way in hell 2-A or has mid godly directly scaling from canon. The rules say that you need to scale from the crossover, i.e the feats that are already present in the game
Click to expand...
They have the same terminology. We do that to Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto, and many more non-canon spin-offs. Unless you tell me that they are wrong.
Click to expand...
Yes but they don't scale the exact same from canon, like Luffy being tier 4 for sparring with Goku. They are its own thing from canon and should be treated as such
 
No, DBFZ ain't canon. We scale Saiyan and Cell and others powers from the canon, even if they aren't canon just because they are portrayed as the same. It's literally the same principle with BBTAG we are talking right now.
 
BB and technically Persona were already Tier 2

Can't wait for UI Goku for Ruby or something dumb like that.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
No, DBFZ ain't canon. We scale Saiyan and Cell and others powers from the canon, even if they aren't canon just because they are portrayed as the same. It's literally the same principle with BBTAG we are talking right now.
Click to expand...
DBFZ isn't a crossover, it's obviously 100% DBZ stuff, so the scaling is fine
 
Yes, BBTAG characters should be allowed, they have their own storylines, feats and even some additional abilities.

And don't tell me that they should have different origin. Because I know Akatsuki and Eltnum from Under Night are acknowledged that they are from their own canon and if they shouldn't have profiles, I will say it's ******* BS.
 
See and therein lies the problem that i have had a sneaking suspicion for as to why this is getting so much pushback; because RWBY is involved. No one has an issue with all of the BB characters being tier 2, nor the UNIB characters. Its the RWBY characters that everyone is against being tier 2. Everyone is just fine with Soul Calibur crossover characters being scaled into the verse like nothing, but god forbid we apply the same rules for RWBY characters in an identical game.
 
I somehow have difficulty believing that these crossover characters are anywhere near different enough from their original counterpart to have a profile, Weekly.

If you could take the crossover version of the character and drop it into its original verse with no issues, then it's not different enough.
 
@Weekly I could also claim that you're only supporting this because you'd love to have Tier 2 RWBY. See I can play the accusations game too. It doesn't lead anywhere.
 
I have nothing against the argument for it. I'm just laughing at how ridiculous it sounds on paper. I find the idea funny but I don't disagree with it. Site has profiles for Smash Kirby so yeah.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
@Weekly I could also claim that you're only supporting this because you'd love to have Tier 2 RWBY. See I can play the accusations game too. It doesn't lead anywhere.
Click to expand...
go for it. You'd be wrong but feel free to do so. them being tier 2 will only be another pain in my ass.
 
LightinAnt said:
I agree with deleting crossover characters who are the exact same just with different tiers and hax
Click to expand...
That'd also means Tier 4 Ryu and Akuma would have to go.


That actually makes me a little sad. Dunno how to feel about this though.
 
They have different resistances that they are getting scaled from. Ragna and Hakumen has space-time manipulation and Azrael has Teleportation and such.

They have their own feats, Ragna and Hakumen breaking through infinite space-time and System merging universes.

Why do you need to have different backstory to be accepted anyway? Eltnum literally said that she came from Melty Blood and the same girl yet she is completely different. She doesn't have bloodlust, she can hit non-existent, she should have Type 5 Immortality, she can summon Hermes now, she appeared on three games with her own story mode, remember, that's ALL Under Night games.

You can make characters that are crossovers that have same backstory if they are different enough.
 
Resistances aren't enough to make a profiles. Also considering that this is primirarily a BB game, I wouldn't consider these characters proof enough that the other characters are different enough for a profile.

You don't need different backstory, but it certainly helps. But being the literal same character with a few different abilities isn't enough. Otherwise, tons of Smash characters would also be allowed. And we don't want that.

I'd say to look at the examples I listed. Godzilla in Marvel looks nothing like Godzilla, plus there is no "original" Godzilla anyway. The few allowed Smash Bros. characters have been defined by Smash Bros. itself in many ways. Captain Falcon had no abilities and a completely different personality before Smash, and this even went on to affect his canon self. Duck Hunt Dog was literally just a dog before, now it can manipulate grass, transform itself into a weird 8-bit sprite, summon stuff and bullets, etc.

Characters are bound to gain new abilities in crossovers, especially game-based ones, that's nothing new. That doesn't make this version of the character suddenly something else entirely and worthy of a profile.
 
I'd also add that mentioning individual characters won't help the case of other characters. We can go on a case-to-case basis. A few characters having huge changes won't make other characters with smaller changes worthy of a profile. Pointing out, again, Smash Bros., which we already do this for.

Should I just go ahead and highlight this? Seems relatively important.
 
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