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Richter Belmont vs Ren Amamiya

The_Smashor

The_Smashor

15,706
11,448
A battle to decide the strongest Low 2-C character that appears in Smash Bros (Excluding the origional characters). Simon is just a weaker Richter and Rosalina, well, I really don't know what's going on with her. If people tell me she's powerful I guess she can fight the winner of this.

Rules: Speed Equalized. This is Low 2-C Richter and End-Game Ren. Ren dosn't have the Omnipotent Orb. Otherwise SBA.

Ultimate Richter Belmont
Jokerrenamamiya
The strongest of the Belmont clan exept for Julius but nobody cares about him:
The leader of the Phantom Thieves: 6 (Solacis, Litentric Teo, Yohnny, ABoogieYesSir, Ionliosite, DarkGrath)

Inconclusive: 1 (Stillwinsto)
 
Man i don't know about this

Both are really haxx and also resist to alot of each other haxx too.

The only that may give someone between both of them the edge hear is AP

and also i don't know about that too. Both are stronger then Baseline that for sure.
 
Wooooo boy.

Okay well Time manip is resisted by Joker. Though a lot of stuff is resisted by both. Joker has attack reflection, not sure how it stacks up to a whip that negates regen up to Mid Godly though. Also Joker doesn't resist Soul Manip, which is what the Vampire Killer employs a lot.

I guess for now I'll lean on Incon, either Richter hits and destroys Joker's soul or Joker blasts with Almighty GG.
 
I'd argue that since Joker's soul is where his Personas reside while they aren't out, any attempt at Soul Manip just ends with Joker's composite Personas reflecting/absorbing/nulling whatever the Vampire Killer dishes out.

Omnipotent Orb nulls everything Richter can throw at Joker unless he has some form of Resistance Negation. That thing's more bullshit than the old definition of Servant Immunity from the Fate series, so it's probably a bad idea allowing all items.

Although without it, the Vampire Killer still needs to hit Joker for the Soul Manip to work, right? Joker can just see the whip coming, put up Tetrakarn, and the thing gets reflected back at Richter. Satanael nullifies Holy magic, too.
 
Solacis said:
I'd argue that since Joker's soul is where his Personas reside while they aren't out, any attempt at Soul Manip just ends with Joker's composite Personas reflecting/absorbing/nulling whatever the Vampire Killer dishes out.
Omnipotent Orb nulls everything Richter can throw at Joker unless he has some form of Resistance Negation. That thing's more bullshit than the old definition of Servant Immunity from the Fate series, so it's probably a bad idea allowing all items.

Although without it, the Vampire Killer still needs to hit Joker for the Soul Manip to work, right? Joker can just see the whip coming, put up Tetrakarn, and the thing gets reflected back at Richter. Satanael nullifies Holy magic, too.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm look good

Can we get more people ot talk here?
 
Solacis said:
Although without it, the Vampire Killer still needs to hit Joker for the Soul Manip to work, right? Joker can just see the whip coming, put up Tetrakarn, and the thing gets reflected back at Richter. Satanael nullifies Holy magic, too.
Click to expand...
Nope. Richter can damage souls with literally everything, so if he wanted to he could just open with Hydro storm and end the fight right then and there
 
Based on his fight with Alucard, Richter opens with his hax and really likes using it.
 
LightinAnt said:
Nope. Richter can damage souls with literally everything, so if he wanted to he could just open with Hydro storm and end the fight right then and there
Click to expand...
One word. Makarakarn.

Hydro Storm is started, Joker realizes the Orb won't null it, he puts up Makarakarn and the whole thing get sent straight back at Richter. Joker can fight entire battles without attacking once because of Tetrakarn and Makarakarn, as long as he knows which one to use. And seeing as Hydro Storm is the only thing Richter has that can even hurt Ren, he's going to see it coming.

Meanwhile, Ren only needs to land one Makajama to cripple Richter's fighting ability. Makajama prevents the use of any magic, and Richter doesn't resist Power Null. At that point, he's won.

Give my vote to Joker.
 
You do know that Richter resists Holy and soul hax right? Also he doesn't lead with Hydro storm that was just an example, he actually leads with Grand Cross which does aoe damage, which also makes him invincible in its duration i don't see how reflecting it would affect him at all
 
Also from your description the attack reflection has to be activated, so Richter could just kill him before he uses it, which he does with Grand Cross
 
I will say I don't think Richter getting his whip reflected is gonna do much to him, doesn't vampire killer count as a holy weapon?
 
Makarakarn is an instant activation. Every one of Ren's spells are instant. He reflects Hydro Storm with a thought.

"You do know that Richter resists Holy and soul hax right?"

Yeah, so? Hydro Storm is the only thing that can hurt Ren because it's water-attributed. Everything else on Richter's page is nulled by the Omnipotent Orb. Grand Cross is Holy and Light, both of which are nulled. Flame Whip? Nulled. Thousand Edge? Nulled.

Water is the only thing outside of Ren's affinities, and even then, the only reason I'm letting it bypass the Omnipotent Orb is because technically, there aren't any water-based attacks in Persona 5. If I equalized the effects of the Omnipotent Orb with Persona 2, then even that wouldn't work, because P2 has water spells. At that point, you need Resistance Negation to even affect him.
 
Nulling it doesn't matter since he can't null soul hax, also Richter can get ressurected by Maria and amped, only a matter of time till he hits and kills Joker
 
I'm still a bit skeptical if attack reflect would work on an attack that can negate regen to such a high level tbh
 
@LightinAnt

The soul hax is tied to the attack. If the attack is nulled, the soul hax does no damage. Persona affinities have shown that regardless of the secondary effect of an attack, if the main attack is nulled/absorbed/repelled then the secondary effect is negated alongside the main attack. This includes hax like Power Null.

@Stillwinston

Regenerationn negation has no bearing on attack reflection. You're making no sense.

@Paul

Water and Ice are treated separately in previous games iirc.
 
@Stillwinston

Regenerationn negation has no bearing on attack reflection. You're making no sense.

I meant the attack must be pretty strong and the reflect may not stand up to it, but guess regen negate ain't tied to AP. Still leaning on Incon atm
 
Richter gets ressurected and amped by Maria and also become invincible by the way, the Vampire Killer can hurt abstracts it should work on Joker
 
Also, I just looked it up and realized I'm stupid.

Richter's soul hax is literally pointless in this match. The whole "From the sea of thy soul, I cometh" crap completely slipped my mind. Personas are legit just the user's soul. Joker's resistance to Soul Manip scales to his durability. So really, he can take Richter's attacks just as easily as he would any other.
 
Joker can't put Richter down though, he just gets rezzed and becomes invincible

Also the soul resistance isn't on their profile
 
Joker can:

- Use Makajama to seal Richter's magical abilities, then knock him out.

- Put him to sleep with Dormina then promptly knock him out while he's asleep for an instant K.O.

- Convince him to let his guard down with his superhuman charisma (bordering on mind control) before catching him off-guard with any of the above.
 
LightinAnt said:
Richter gets ressurected and amped by Maria and also become invincible by the way, the Vampire Killer can hurt abstracts it should work on Joker
Click to expand...
1. Not on Richter's profile.

2. Outside help is a no-no.

3. Joker can hurt abstracts with his normal attacks. Yaldabaoth was an abstract. Yaldabaoth also could not hurt Omnipotent Orb Joker without using Resistance Negation.
 
It's type 4, Maria doesn't help him with attacking the enemy, also Richters magic is way stronger especially Grand cross which he leads with, what does Joker lead with?
 
LightinAnt said:
It's just type 4 through Maria, also Richter resists sleep hax
Click to expand...
No outside help is allowed in VSmatches. Are you new or something?

Richter does not resist sleep hax. He resists mind hax. Joker's sleep hax is physical.
 
He resists it, through the succubi enemy who can sleep and dream manip and Olrox, type 4 is not outside help
 
LightinAnt said:
It's type 4, Maria doesn't help him with attacking the enemy, also Richters magic is way stronger especially Grand cross which he leads with, what does Joker lead with?
Click to expand...
LightinAnt said:
He resists it, through the succubi enemy who can sleep and dream manip, type 4 is not outside help
Click to expand...
Joker leads with whatever works. He's an RPG protagonist. He doesn't have an in-character move. Also, I've already said it several times that Joker nulls everything except maybe Hydro Storm.

Type 4 is the ability to resurrect yourself. If someone else does it for you, it's not Immortality, it's outside help.

Also, agai, the stuff you're listing is not on the profile. Make a CRT. Until the changes are accepted, your claims will be taken with a grain of salt.
 
The soul resistance isn't even integral to Joker's win condition. Joker power nulls and kills. If not, he power nulls, sleep haxes, and the kills. That's literally it.

That said, I have, in fact, already brought up Joker's resistance in a CRT. I'm now only waiting for replies.
 
Joker is quite versatile with his attacks, but Richter has a strong arsenal of weapons like, oh i don't know the whip. But seriously, I am going to say Richter wins this fight, but barely.
 
Crocodile The SeaWing said:
the whip.
Click to expand...
I have literally just explained why this doesn't work. I have literally said that practically nothing in Richter's arsenal works.

I sometimes feel like people have forgotten how to read.
 
The Omnipotent Orb is an item in Joker's Arsenal that nullifies all attacks in his game with the acception of "Amighty Attacks".
 
@Crocodile

Now you're just being rude. Can you blame me for being a tad frustrated when I've repeated myself no less than 3 times about such a simple concept?

@LightinAnt

The Omnipotent Orb nulls physical, fire, ice, wind, electricity, radiation, curse, darkness, death, light and holy manipulation. Other accessories also null all ailments. Almighty attacks are attacks that inherently bypass resistances. That is, Resistance Negation.
 
LightinAnt said:
Also apparently there is only a 20% chance of Reflection
Click to expand...
If we are talking about aliments, then it's far from being as low as 20% may seem:

Aliments, both inflicting them and receiving them depends on the Luck Stat, which at this point in the game should be very high for Ren. The 20% is influenced by the Luck Stat too.
 
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