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The End of Tier 1 Homestuck (And Problem Sleuth)

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Withersoul_235

Withersoul_235

He/Him
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This is something that's been bugging me for a long time.

I've always wondered why Homestuck was Tier 1. When I asked people, they gave me two pieces of evidence.

The first is a dimension called "EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL COSMIC SUPERSTRING STRATA". Apparently this alone "confirms" String Theory in the verse. Just one thing however: since when does the name of a dimension confirm String Theory?

Simply because the realm's name contains "Superstring" and "Extra-Dimensional" doesn't automatically confirm, or even imply, String Theory. This is a pure, baseless assumption here. This basically equals assuming a weapon undeniably has Immortality Negation simply because it's named "The Godslayer" or "Death Sword" or something like that.

Now, the second piece of evidence is a gag where the Godhead Pickle Inspector "sews" the universe back together. According to String Theory, the universe consists of strings. And Pickle sews "the strings" together.

But again, this is too vague. This could easily be Reality-Warping, or even Toonforce. It's too vague.

In short: The Superstring Strata argument is pretty much nihil now because the simple name of something means nothing unless backed up with feats, weakening the already vague Tier 1 MSPA. The instance of "sewing" a universe back together, too, doesn't instantly confirm String Theory by definition.

All the arguments I've seen for Tier 1 MSPA are too vague and up to interpretation, or even total assumptions. As I personally see it, this verse should cap at High 2-A. Would like to see what y'all think of it.

I'm gonna enter my closet again now
 
@DMB Superstring uses ten dimensions, so it would be.

Anywho, I was pretty sure there was more evidence than this, and I'm not sure of the context of the stuff. If the realm is actually just named that, than using that could be a name fallacy, and if the realm is actually just described that way, then it should actually be that high, but like I said, I don't know the context.

If it is just a name and the only other stuff is just supporting evidence with nothing solid, then I agree with this, but there could be more evidence that just hasn't been brought up on the profile.
 
Niarobi (Formerly Hadou) said:
@DMB Superstring uses ten dimensions, so it would be.
Click to expand...
I know, but I've seens some people debate that Strigh Theory technically owuldn't be High 1-C because the dimensions aren't treated as "trascendent" over one another there, but they are just determined by quantum partcles called "strings".

Someone also told be that according to it, atoms would be higehr dimensional too or something.

Regardless, it would be best to contact a member knowledgeble on the topic.
 
1-B is gotta go, that much most people agree with.

There was some evidence for 1-C Homestuck tho, i forgot what it was. I'll try to fish it.
 
It just depends on how it's portrayed, there are many different interpretations of string theory, and the ones people use to discredit it are the specific interpretations that people bring up when talking about it not being powerful or being too powerful.
 
I've had issues with Tier 1 Homestuck before, so this is reasonable, though there are other things, not just the Superstring stuff, to put them that high. I'd leave that to Azzy, though.
 
The issue with string theory dimensions is that the higher ones are shrunk down to the size of a planck length, and taking them in the same way as full geometric dimensions would result in every atom being tier 1.
 
"The first is a dimension called "EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL COSMIC SUPERSTRING STRATA". Apparently this alone "confirms" String Theory in the verse. Just one thing however: since when does the name of a dimension confirm String Theory?" Simply because the realm's name contains "Superstring" and "Extra-Dimensional" doesn't automatically confirm, or even imply, String Theory. This is a pure, baseless assumption here. This basically equals assuming a weapon undeniably has Immortality Negation simply because it's named "The Godslayer" or "Death Sword" or something like that.

Your actually only looking at the basic side of the evidence. Nobody in their right mind actually used that scan to solely prove Homestuck is High 1-C, however it's used because it's back up for greater evidence

Blackhole Kingpin was literally pulling the drawstrings of the multiverse upon becoming a singularity

https://www.homestuck.com/problem-sleuth/1522

https://www.homestuck.com/problem-sleuth/1271

I would also like to point out "Strata" is the term used, which is the plural of Stratum, which means multiple layers of rocks in the ground

https://www.google.com/search?q=stratum+definition&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS792US792&oq=stratum+def&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l4.9744j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&surl=1&safe=active&ssui=o

^ The layers part can easily deduced as an allusion to Dimensional layers as before String Theory was mentioned

"Now, the second piece of evidence is a gag where the Godhead Pickle Inspector "sews" the universe back together. According to String Theory, the universe consists of strings. And Pickle sews "the strings" together.But again, this is too vague. This could easily be Reality-Warping, or even Toonforce. It's too vague."

That doesn't debunk the narrative itself. The action of "sewing" the universe is what matters because it's basically implying that strings do in fact exist and is merely an allegory or allusion to them

Edit: I would also like to mention it's part of the recap, showing that Hussie didn't use the term as a mere one off thing and payed actual attention to such addition

https://www.homestuck.com/problem-sleuth/1478
 
@Neo

Is there evidence that the "Drawstrings" Mobster Kingpin is affecting are the Strings of the Universe? Because it looks like the tear in space-time leading to the "Superstring Strata" was already closed by Godhead Pickle Inspector far earlier in the comic.

Strata also probably refers to the "layer" (don't know if that is the right word) of the Universe wherein the Superstrings vibrate to give emergence to elementary particles and such, it isn't an allusion to "Dimensional Layers" because these aren't a thing. Dimensions are not layers and we never considered them as such, they are just Axis of Movement which dictate degrees of freedom in space.

In the case of String Theory, said Dimensions are curled up to the planck length and not actually applicable to our System in any way. So, yeah, Tier 1 Homestuck should go.
 
String Theory has dimensions being incredibly small instead of infinitely massive anyways

Then again there's apparently other stuff so
 
SuperBearNeo X said:
Hold on. I'll get to this later
Click to expand...
"Is there evidence that the "Drawstrings" Mobster Kingpin is affecting are the Strings of the Universe? Because it looks like the tear in space-time leading to the "Superstring Strata" was already closed by Godhead Pickle Inspector far earlier in the comic."

Yes, he was actually doing more because at one point, he actually riped reality in half and revealed the drawstrings. This again suggests the notion of String Theory. Also whether that's true or not doesn't harm my narrative, however I'm pretty sure GPI repaired that afterwards

"Strata also probably refers to the "layer" (don't know if that is the right word) of the Universe wherein the Superstrings vibrate to give emergence to elementary particles and such, it isn't an allusion to "Dimensional Layers" because these aren't a thing. Dimensions are not layers and we never considered them as such, they are just Axis of Movement which dictate degrees of freedom in space."


Don't take what i said literal, mainly focus on the allusion/allegory part of my argument, which is more relevant. Whether Dimensions are considered layers or not doesn't matter because the "layers" themselves are just allusions to Dimensions. Also what a Dimension actually is varies, but they are also either treated as higher infinities or higher planes/levels of reality (which given Homestucks cosmology, might actually be the latter. Maybe), or possibly even more

In the case of String Theory, said Dimensions are curled up to the planck length and not actually applicable to our System in any way. So, yeah, Tier 1 Homestuck should go.

Can you source that, I haven't seen anything like that when learning about String Theory at all. Even then, can you give me a link that suggests it's the main proposal of the concept and not just a interpretation of String Theory
 
This was meant to be downgraded a while ago, but I have not had the time nor the patience to go through the second half of Homestuck again and find the most accurate ratings for the verse's god tiers.

It's definitely at least a solid High 2-A, with some potentially higher stuff that I have almost zero memory of, but that's about all I've got.
 
Yes, he was actually doing more because at one point, he actually riped reality in half and revealed the drawstrings. This again suggests the notion of String Theory. Also whether that's true or not doesn't harm my narrative, however I'm pretty sure GPI repaired that afterwards

Uh, GPI repaired the tear in space-time in page 1271, this happened in page 1522. I don't exactly see the relation between the Superstring Strata appearing and Kinpin doin stuff with "drawstrings" here.

Also what a Dimension actually is varies, but they are also either treated as higher infinities or higher planes/levels of reality (which given Homestucks cosmology, might actually be the latter. Maybe), or possibly even more

Dimensions being Higher Layers of Reality is new age-y, pseudo-scientifical nonsense and a giant headcanon about Dimensional Tiering that somehow became ingrained into people's minds. A Dimension is not a place, it is literally just an Axis of Space-Time movement through which beings can displace and movement themselves. Sure, there can be Higher-Dimensional Spaces, but they wouldn't be the Higher Dimensions themselves, just areas with additional directions of space one can move in

Considering this is String Theory which is being mentioned, the Dimensions used here would be most certainly Dimensions in the context of axis of movement (A.k.a what they actually are in Physics)

Can you source that, I haven't seen anything like that when learning about String Theory at all. Even then, can you give me a link that suggests it's the main proposal of the concept and not just a interpretation of String Theory

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_dimension

https://web2.ph.utexas.edu/~coker2/index.files/4d.shtml

Borrowing the idea of Kaluza and Klein, physicists incorporated the other three forces and their "couplings" by adding space dimensions— the only thing you can do in a theory that is purely geometric. A typical string theory had 9 or 10 space dimensions and 1 time dimension. The extra space dimensions had to be there to incorporate phenomena other than gravity geometrically, but they could not "actually be there or the theory would not have worked. The solution was to curl these extra dimensions up mathematically into tight "wads no more than 10-35 meters in length, a process called "compaction." The extra dimensions would thus be "compact," and indetectable.

Most versions of String Theory abide to this model involving compact Dimensions and such. The exception to this is Brane Cosmology, which is a specific branch of String Theory which actually uses Large Extra Dimensions.
 
Well, since Azathoth is fine with a downgrade, it should probably be alright.
 
Well, they have to be properly planned out by members who are knowledgeable about the verse first.
 
I looked around and didn't find anything else that could bring a tier 1 rating around, so i'm fine with it.
 
Are some experienced members, preferably staff, willing to properly plan this revision?
 
You can ask Azathoth to comment here again regarding how he would suggest that we should rescale the characters.
 
@SuperBearNeo Ain't the drawstrings you mentioned earlier are clearly from Mobster Kingpin's clothing he used to tighten around his body to become a blackhole, not the actual cosmic strings of the universe around him?

I'm neutral for this on both sides since I can agree with the Extra-Dimensional Superstring Strata being a higher dimension (at least 5-D, that's for sure) and also it being argued as a ten-dimensional structure as "strata" is plural for "stratum" which could mean that it has multiple layers of spatial dimensions on top of each other in this viewpoint.
 
Magi Hussie said:
@SuperBearNeo Ain't the drawstrings you mentioned earlier are clearly from Mobster Kingpin's clothing he used to tighten around his body to become a blackhole, not the actual cosmic strings of the universe around him?

I'm neutral for this on both sides since I can agree with the Extra-Dimensional Superstring Strata being a higher dimension (at least 5-D, that's for sure) and also it being argued as a ten-dimensional structure as "strata" is plural for "stratum" which could mean that it has multiple layers of spatial dimensions on top of each other in this viewpoint.
Click to expand...
The literal name of a dimension is not sufficient evidence.

We never actually see anything that implies the Strata being higher-D with the sole and single exception of its name. It's way too vague to even imply higher-D, so I disagree with the said compromis. I don't see MS Paint at Tier 1 as it currently stands, not even as a possibility.
 
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