Problems with High 1-A Homestuck|STAFF VOTES [2 : 0]

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Okay I was going to on about how High 1-A is a valid interpretation (don't worry there is an argument to be had it is), have all these paragraphs yadada, but I'll go over why I think it's valid anyway. I wanted to try and make it longer and all but I'm having other takes on this already, plus I'm becoming more tired I just wanna address what's talked about in the OP right now.

These are the scans from Hiveswap Friendsim and Pesterquest I'm talking about so if you wanna read where I'm getting this stuff from, go nuts. There's a bit more to it than just this, but I'll talk about it.

The damn High 1-A argument idk:
So we already (hopefully) know that these meta-rivers are a call back to the time MSPA Reader imagined causality like a river, making rivers a metaphor to causality, which that already is a very important point given MSPA Reader and Feferi are going through "meta-rivers" and like I said above, causality is already connected to plot and fate at least to some degree. Caliborn's forces of inevitability for example:

uu: I THINK PART OF MY PERSONAL QUEST. IS TO BECOME AT EASE WITH THE FORCES OF INEVITABILITY.
uu: INEVITABILITY THAT ALL THINGS SHOULD AND WILL FALL IN MY FAVOR. THAT ALL CAUSALITY ANSWERS TO ME. AND THAT ALL OUTCOMES NOT ONLY SERVE ME. BUT CONSIST OF MY BEING.
uu: SO I FEEL THAT. THE MORE I GROW IN POWER.
uu: THE MORE STUFF IT SHOULD TURN OUT I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR.
uu: UP TO AND INCLUDING. EVERYTHING THAT EVER HAPPENS.
uu: EVEN IF IT HAS TO BE.
uu: RETROACTIVELY.
GT: Hmmmmm...
GT: Nope!
GT: Dont reckon i understand much of that either.

There are few other examples like the Retcon Powers and what not, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say. And considering the mentions of transcending/moving these layers, creators, chess pieces, whatever you want to call them, or how these meta-rivers can control fate, it would make sense for these meta-rivers to have their own narratives along with them.

Does a troll who paddles an oar-vessl down a rushing river control her own fate, or does the river control her?
The answer is of course: both! The river has its force, but within that the troll can move her boat where she will.
You are the Heiress, and thus the fate that sweeps you along is vast and swift and powerful, but also your arms are strong and your oar-vessel stout. Do not despair of your own strength!
Proceeds to elaborate on the "rivers"

Just off this alone you could probably see why someone would see these as actual Reality Fiction gaps, regardless of the "infinitely bigger" or similar statements, which already don't have to be an anti-feat, in fact they can't even be comprehended usually.

Yet do not despair! You may yet through long and deep meditation transcend the bounds of this small world, rising higher and higher so that you are able to see and comprehend and transcend those vast and meta-vast cosmic river levels one by one!

I'm not sure how to go about addressing the "pixel" scan, given the explanation of the meta rivers and the stuff with fate and causality and what not, I didn't read it like the OP describes.

For context they are comparing pictures and pixels as R > F, a “bigger picture” and that “a bigger picture is only a single pixel”.

To put it within an analogy you understand: we know 1080P and 4K contain pixels, yet those pixels are still something in 8K, Infinite P image resolution. This comparison is literally just saying quantity. In larger image they are infinitesmall which is obviously +1D instead of 1A. I believe writers there literally meant characters being infinitesmall instead of seeing them as fiction. Well if they were outside of that pictures probably that might count as "R F" but images in pixels? L-O-L.

Unless you wanna elaborate more on that, I'm not really seeing it like that...

I was going to have to add more beyond the High 1-A stuff, but at this point, I'm tired, so I might just talk about it later on. All I'll say is these meta-rivers being called a "towering stack of universes" and the transcending would lead to a "larger story" is interesting...

Also damn I guess looking at my computer screen is Quantitative R>F

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

??? That wasn't my argument, my argument is that the furthest ring at it's most basic level is made up of the aspects, which are 1-A due to being the platonic concepts of space, time, mind, heart, hope, rage, breath, blood, life, doom, light, and void (with piss, tears and lips as extras depending upon how literal we want to take Hussie WoG shitposts)

Not only does there not need to be such explicitness, homestuck has that shit
Firstly ofc the aspect stuff I mentioned above, which, if you really want to see, you can see everything here, and if needs be I can grab more shit to beat the point in, such as the aspects being wholly indivisable concepts, that all of reality's concepts are "filtered" so to speak from them, and stuff to do with Skaia
But beyond that, lemme just quote my past self here

The furthest ring is explicitly separate from and transcendent to the lower realities, not being a bubble-based structure (which refers to sessions/dream bubbles and literally every universe ever) that is dreamt or blown up by the horrorterrors

Hmm, as other person said something being called "platonic" doesn't really matter much, but putting that aside and reading through it, it seems to be explicitly speaking about potentiality and change of self… so then, very well, 1-A is justified. I believe op can place me in agreement with the third option. Thank you for actually elaborating on the matter with more scans.

Okay I was going to on about how High 1-A is a valid interpretation (don't worry there is an argument to be had it is), have all these paragraphs yadada, but I'll go over why I think it's valid anyway. I wanted to try and make it longer and all but I'm having other takes on this already, plus I'm becoming more tired I just wanna address what's talked about in the OP right now.

These are the scans from Hiveswap Friendsim and Pesterquest I'm talking about so if you wanna read where I'm getting this stuff from, go nuts. There's a bit more to it than just this, but I'll talk about it.

The damn High 1-A argument idk:
So we already (hopefully) know that these meta-rivers are a call back to the time MSPA Reader imagined causality like a river, making rivers a metaphor to causality, which that already is a very important point given MSPA Reader and Feferi are going through "meta-rivers" and like I said above, causality is already connected to plot and fate at least to some degree. Caliborn's forces of inevitability for example:

There are few other examples like the Retcon Powers and what not, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say. And considering the mentions of transcending/moving these layers, creators, chess pieces, whatever you want to call them, or how these meta-rivers can control fate, it would make sense for these meta-rivers to have their own narratives along with them.

Just off this alone you could probably see why someone would see these as actual Reality Fiction gaps, regardless of the "infinitely bigger" or similar statements, which already don't have to be an anti-feat, in fact they can't even be comprehended usually.

I'm not sure how to go about addressing the "pixel" scan, given the explanation of the meta rivers and the stuff with fate and causality and what not, I didn't read it like the OP describes.

Unless you wanna elaborate more on that, I'm not really seeing it like that...

I was going to have to add more beyond the High 1-A stuff, but at this point, I'm tired, so I might just talk about it later on. All I'll say is these meta-rivers being called a "towering stack of universes" and the transcending would lead to a "larger story" is interesting...

Also damn I guess looking at my computer screen is Quantitative R>F

… Sorry but I believe you did not understood OP's promise really. We are not questioning the transcends, or that they are seeing the lower reality as fiction, but we are arguing it is not transcending them into complete and utter nothingness (as a 1-A does).

The scans explicitly state how it is working in relationship to the rivers. They still hold a relationship to the lowers and acknowledge them to a level.

Also as MGQ already has pointed out this quote:

"yet none the less for that you in your smallness and your small world are indispensable, like a key piece at the bottom of an infinitely tall jenga tower."

Higher worlds are built upon and are, to some extent, reliant on these lower worlds meaning they aren't disconnected in composition and sharing the same very properties in making.

It's linked to being a pixel of a picture, then it continues infinitely to see a "bigger picture" and that also continues and all of them see the lower as one single pixel within their making composition.

 

[Hecky2222]

Bruh I was at uni when you replied. So i will probably recheck your points again when I get to home

But seeing your points rn

Okay I was going to on about how High 1-A is a valid interpretation (don't worry there is an argument to be had it is), have all these paragraphs yadada, but I'll go over why I think it's valid anyway. I wanted to try and make it longer and all but I'm having other takes on this already, plus I'm becoming more tired I just wanna address what's talked about in the OP right now.

These are the scans from Hiveswap Friendsim and Pesterquest I'm talking about so if you wanna read where I'm getting this stuff from, go nuts. There's a bit more to it than just this, but I'll talk about it.

The damn High 1-A argument idk:
So we already (hopefully) know that these meta-rivers are a call back to the time MSPA Reader imagined causality like a river, making rivers a metaphor to causality, which that already is a very important point given MSPA Reader and Feferi are going through "meta-rivers" and like I said above, causality is already connected to plot and fate at least to some degree. Caliborn's forces of inevitability for example:

There are few other examples like the Retcon Powers and what not, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say. And considering the mentions of transcending/moving these layers, creators, chess pieces, whatever you want to call them, or how these meta-rivers can control fate, it would make sense for these meta-rivers to have their own narratives along with them.

Just off this alone you could probably see why someone would see these as actual Reality Fiction gaps, regardless of the "infinitely bigger" or similar statements, which already don't have to be an anti-feat, in fact they can't even be comprehended usually.

I'm not sure how to go about addressing the "pixel" scan, given the explanation of the meta rivers and the stuff with fate and causality and what not, I didn't read it like the OP describes.

Unless you wanna elaborate more on that, I'm not really seeing it like that...

I was going to have to add more beyond the High 1-A stuff, but at this point, I'm tired, so I might just talk about it later on. All I'll say is these meta-rivers being called a "towering stack of universes" and the transcending would lead to a "larger story" is interesting...

Also damn I guess looking at my computer screen is Quantitative R>F

Half stuff you are saying is already thing for non 1As. As such as basic thing higher dimension or world should transcend lower one and higher dimension can't be perceived or comprehended already. So all of them can be brushed off and not really relevant to 1-A Reality Fiction Transcendence.

Now going by "interconnection". It doesn't really help lot, insofar it doesn't explain how lower worlds are non-existent.

As close friend of mine @ExcelsisBerny told "R F should be only Outerversal if lower world is vanished to nothing"

And let's go by your points

1. All Fate and Casuality connected, so them being interconnected not really problem.
2. Higher worlds control fate thus it is narrative level(?)

And I don't see exactly where this addresses how they are not nothing to high worlds?

Once again they are infinitely larger(Although it only isn't anti feat yeah) to smaller picture to point it is only pixel. They are described bigger pictures uppon pictures and lower worlds are exactly pixel to higher one.
"yet none the less for that you in your smallness and your small world are indispensable, like a key piece at the bottom of an infinitely tall jenga tower."

All of that just indicate lower worlds aren't nothing and higher world doesn't transcend to non-existence(Which is what Outerverse should do).

R > F there at best qualifies for Quantity R > F instead of Quality One. Which is why I said +D

And where exactly I said seeing pixels in computer is quantity R > F? Are you Fate Fan by any chance?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I think I’ll just concede and just go with the third option at this point. Even just disregarding the pixel stuff (because I’ll keep it real, that is weird to me) the jenga tower nonsense is uh, goddamnit it’d be like having a virtual machine inside of virtual machine infinitely and closing the lowest one makes all the other virtual machines just die with it or something idk.

That aside, interestingly they talk about these meta-rivers being “inside particular instantiation of the Story.” Wonder what that’d mean for the “larger story” mentioned before you’re given the choice to transcend ig (could just be another fake R>F but I’m not sure on that)

And where exactly I said seeing pixels in computer is quantity R > F? Are you Fate Fan by any chance?

I hid that part to say I was trolling or messing around there. I think I meant to cross it out but forgot my bad LOL (also I’m not a Fate fan, but maybe one of these days…)

 

[Hecky2222]

I hid that part to say I was trolling or messing around there. I think I meant to cross it out but forgot my bad LOL (also I’m not a Fate fan, but maybe one of these days…)

Fate Fan is also joke and trolling from me to my friends who cant keep tracking or cant understand me

 

[Deonment]

I think I’ll just concede and just go with the third option at this point. Even just disregarding the pixel stuff (because I’ll keep it real, that is weird to me) the jenga tower nonsense is uh, goddamnit it’d be like having a virtual machine inside of virtual machine infinitely and closing the lowest one makes all the other virtual machines just die with it or something idk.

You are saying this in the same verse where doomed timelines are a thing and are a Paradox Space level event (it "tidying itself up" as stated by hussie, that also has implications I really don't want to think about), that isn't really an issue here tbqh
(and for the pixel stuff that's pretty clearly (in retrospect at least) not referring to the hierarchy itself, but to requiring feferi to broaden her mind and perspective)

That aside, interestingly they talk about these meta-rivers being “inside particular instantiation of the Story.” Wonder what that’d mean for the “larger story” mentioned before you’re given the choice to transcend ig (could just be another fake R>F but I’m not sure on that)

God damn it, I had to go pace and think and (quietly) scream about it, becauseTimelines are Stories, whether in the 1-A way or not, I do not want to know or think about, but them being Stories is just kinda irrevocably true the more you think about it while being in the know
Hussie WoG about the cario overcoat and sessions being narrative realms,
The Stardust glitches even exist, considering the context they were formed in,
paradox space of all things being responsible for the tidying up of doomed timelines, being confirmed by WoG and MSPA Reader, twice
the ******* one time we see what happened to a doomed timeline being from MSPA reader dying to it, he explicitly brings up the three pillars of canon,
******* EARTH C
And I can go on,
So first of all, in addition to plot, causality, change and whatnot being the same, because you know homestuck, time is also part of that clusterfuck, so "Larger Story" in that context either the "larger story" of either like, the game as a whole, could be the genesis frog, idfk, or like, the larger story of paradox space, of just the larger story of their timeline as a whole, their personal timeline to the universe's timeline as a whole
Secondly, individual timelines could be 1-A. There are no antifeats there, because everything that does stuff on that scale is either Green Sun Fuckery, Aspect Fuckery, Meta Fuckery, or another 1-A thing style of fuckery. I have no idea what evidence for this exists. I wash my hands of the consequences that could come from it, and to be quite honest, I don't like it, but it is entirely viable
Anyways, back to screaming into the void (******* CALIBORN TIME BULLSHIT)

 

[Hecky2222]

Even fans themselves getting confused by own cosmology huh?

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Even fans themselves getting confused by own cosmology huh?

Don't forget, Azathoth was also literally a fan who has made his own downgrade thread, FoxySonicMaster said his interpretation defers from start of his comment, and Deonment also said the same thing about having different interpretations over some matters such as potential argument for infinite regress. That's just three person arguing mostly about same topic.

Gzzz, the verse is a living hell.

 

[Deonment]

Even fans themselves getting confused by own cosmology huh?

Don't forget, Azathoth was also literally a fan who had made his own downgrade thread, FoxySonicMaster108 said his interpretation defers from start of his comment, and Deonment also said the same thing about having different interpretations over some matters such as potential argument for infinite regress.

Gzzz, the verse is a living hell.

You have no idea, I thought about this exact idea before (you can see my post about it on Azathoth's thread), made a few jokes, dismissed it, and dipped
Then the post that I was quoting came around, I made a few jokes to myself, thought about it for a bit, realized how much stuff there was for and against it, and felt a gnawing dread
I still have conniptions about several parts of this verse. I'm half a second from taking an axe to the cosmology at any second and proposing something else that works, but has its issues within and without the stories (the aspects and the way they are treated, (Seriously, the aspects below the Ult Tiers despite their ascension explicitly being intricately tied into the Ult Tiers) is smth alright, and my solution would cause like, multiple pretty major and explicit contradictions off the top of my head).

 

[Hecky2222]

You have no idea, I thought about this exact idea before (you can see my post about it on Azathoth's thread), made a few jokes, dismissed it, and dipped
Then the post that I was quoting came around, I made a few jokes to myself, thought about it for a bit, realized how much stuff there was for and against it, and felt a gnawing dread

Seems like I am not even needed here anymore.

Once supporters conceded verse is most likely not High 1-A we will get unofficial sequel to Azathoth's thread, where supporters argue who scales to what. And I will js grab popcorn and enjoy chaos there . Absolute cinema

Disagree for azerty's reasons below

My Lord refused to rebunk this verse which is why we are getting downgrade

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

My Lord refused to rebunk this verse which is why we are getting downgrade

Man, I wish I had that much aura. Too bad it’s impossible, Since there’s a qualitative difference between the GOAT and us.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

God damn it, I had to go pace and think and (quietly) scream about it, becauseTimelines are Stories, whether in the 1-A way or not, I do not want to know or think about, but them being Stories is just kinda irrevocably true the more you think about it while being in the know
Hussie WoG about the cario overcoat and sessions being narrative realms,
The Stardust glitches even exist, considering the context they were formed in,
paradox space of all things being responsible for the tidying up of doomed timelines, being confirmed by WoG and MSPA Reader, twice
the ******* one time we see what happened to a doomed timeline being from MSPA reader dying to it, he explicitly brings up the three pillars of canon,
******* EARTH C
And I can go on,
So first of all, in addition to plot, causality, change and whatnot being the same, because you know homestuck, time is also part of that clusterfuck, so "Larger Story" in that context either the "larger story" of either like, the game as a whole, could be the genesis frog, idfk, or like, the larger story of paradox space, of just the larger story of their timeline as a whole, their personal timeline to the universe's timeline as a whole
Secondly, individual timelines could be 1-A. There are no antifeats there, because everything that does stuff on that scale is either Green Sun Fuckery, Aspect Fuckery, Meta Fuckery, or another 1-A thing style of fuckery. I have no idea what evidence for this exists. I wash my hands of the consequences that could come from it, and to be quite honest, I don't like it, but it is entirely viable
Anyways, back to screaming into the void (******* CALIBORN TIME BULLSHIT)

Are you talking about this WoG from the books?

It's like a sort of membrane, producing an almost electrostatic buffer that shields one field of narrative potential from another. And if AH understands this on some level, then he's making some (for now) good faith effort to insulate the narrative from this 4th wall meta-fuckery. But the shielding can only last as long as LE himself has not been summoned yet, and is not wearing the coat, which would remove it from the wall (this happens in Cascade, conveniently just before Jade's golden ship crashes through the wall to traverse between sessions, or narrative realms). And since this construct is associated with LE, its partitioning effect also has some insidious implications.

Yeah idk what the hell Andrew Hussie was cooking with these man (what was he cooking in general with this webcomic?)

But yeah there’s so much stuff you can say about it, but I think it could probably be saved for another day at this point (1-A Genesis Frogs sound funny as hell though)

Gzzz, the verse is a living hell.

This is Homestuck, of course it is

 

[SnakesCity]

Yeah idk what the hell Andrew Hussie was cooking with these man (what was he cooking in general with this webcomic?)

Love Homestuck for the most part Act 6 is...something but Hussie do be writing straight up bullshit sometimes.

 

[Hecky2222]

So waiting period and my Lord Azerty still didn't rebunk verse but busy with changing VSBW standards. Verse is doomed bro

Jokes aside once supporters and opponents concured to High 1-A axing but Furthest Ring and Paradox Space 1-A I want to ask last thing.

@FoxySonicMaster108 @Deonment do you agree with current justification of R > F over Paradox Space and R > F over Homestuck as whole. Any context for that?

@Thelastmlg do you want to elaborate bit how they have R > F since it was in your OP?

Anyway I summarized args there.

Given the OP's inactivity and the age of that thread (4 months), a fresh thread is fine. Ant has already given the green light to anyone who wants to handle that topic, and a new thread will be much easier to handle and manage for whoever decides to take over.

Get your ass back there before I debunk Alien X to Lego brick level Rein

 

[Deonment]

@FoxySonicMaster108 @Deonment do you agree with current justification of R > F over Paradox Space and R > F over Homestuck as whole. Any context for that?

Normal users can't ping people in a way that gives them a notif
Anyways
Uh, wdym
If you mean do I agree with Meta-Level Characters (Ult Dirk, Hussie, and whatnot) having an R>F over Paradox Space, then no, I don't, same with First Guardian MSPA Reader having an R<F over the rest of the cast (ofc however I am a tier 0 GPI truther)
But that's something I want to fully hash out in whatever scaling thread comes up (which would have been made an eternity ago if we actually got the third staff vote on the part 2 overhaul thread)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

So waiting period and my Lord Azerty still didn't rebunk verse but busy with changing VSBW standards. Verse is doomed bro

LOL

Jokes aside once supporters and opponents concured to High 1-A axing but Furthest Ring and Paradox Space 1-A I want to ask last thing.

@FoxySonicMaster108 @Deonment do you agree with current justification of R > F over Paradox Space and R > F over Homestuck as whole. Any context for that?

(I think just wanna look for further arguments for High 1-A, but anyway)

Also yeah, basically what Deon said. The R>F scaling at least for Lord English and stuff like that is uhh… Very odd. Like how he has abilities connecting to Paradox Space despite transcending it? Yeah that’s… Nah. But I think it’s based on the old scaling so that’s why it’s like that.

(ofc however I am a tier 0 GPI truther)

 

[Hecky2222]

Bump

 

[Reiner04]

Right now as we speak, almost 7 staffs watching this thread, all because of the title

 

[ItsMeat]

Right now as we speak, almost 7 staffs watching this thread, all because of the title

Azerty's aura

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Right now as we speak, almost 7 staffs watching this thread, all because of the title

In fact, I have edit it out.

@Hecky2222 do not do this again. Thank you.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Anyway so let's just pack our thoughts up on how things went.

We all reached in conclusion with third option, meaning, to take down 1-A+ R > F and the previously H1-A structures becoming 1-As as of now, seems supporters be agree also. This effectively makes every character that is also listed to get their statistics change to "Outerverse level" instead of current "High Outerverse."

What supporters seems to not be agree on is the R > F stuff over the Paradox Space itself (at least the impression Deon and Foxy give to be such) in which I believe they should either

1. Conclude over it in this thread

Or

2. Reaching to an agreement to get this CRT evaluate first and then supporters being able to indicate for who scales to what and where in another CRT made by them.

However, I believe we can go over with the 1st option here instead, to get things warped up fast.

 

[Hecky2222]

Anyway so let's just pack our thoughts up on how things went.

We all reached in conclusion with third option, meaning, to take down 1-A+ R > F and the previously H1-A structures becoming 1-As as of now, seems supporters be agree also. This effectively makes every character that is also listed to get their statistics change to "Outerverse level" instead of current "High Outerverse."

What supporters seems to not be agree on is the R > F stuff over the Paradox Space itself (at least the impression Deon and Foxy give to be such) in which I believe they should either

1. Conclude over it in this thread

Or

2. Reaching to an agreement to get this CRT evaluate first and then supporters being able to indicate for who scales to what and where in another CRT made by them.

However, I believe we can go over with the 1st option here instead, to get things warped up fast.

I essentially asked if they agree or not with R > F and still waiting if that has some reasoning(Cuz uhhhh no scans whatsover). Two supporters disagreed with this reasoning.

Cuz if you remember I said to you This CAN BE UPSCALE if R > F upper paradox space is valid. Since operating on different quality would be still enough for High 1-A Baseline(Basically this was last hope for High 1-A even if we accept downgrade)

Now it is funny to mention first I wanted to wank upscale High 1-A MMQS over that reasoning but saw 1-A+ reasoning and decided to butcher that first instead

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

snip

I’d personally rather just do the scaling in a different thread, but that’s just me.

I essentially asked if they agree or not with R > F and still waiting if that has some reasoning(Cuz uhhhh no scans whatsover). Two supporters disagreed with this reasoning.

Cuz if you remember I said to you This CAN BE UPSCALE if R > F upper paradox space is valid. Since operating on different quality would be still enough for High 1-A Baseline(Basically this was last hope for High 1-A even if we accept downgrade)

I don’t remember what the reasoning was exactly, but I think it was something like Feferi reaching the full light of realty was seen as Paradox Space and not the furthest ring. Andrew Hussie being able to see those characters as fiction given he made Paradox Space. Then MSPA Reader becomes bigger than the story which it includes viewing everything including Earth C as fiction. But uh, like I already said there are problems with that

Also wdym? I don’t think Paradox Space has a different (meta?) quality like that compared to the furthest ring, not that I remember (unless you wanna argue it transcends any possible story or something in Homestuck, which is becoming more likely with how some fan adventures are becoming official)

 

[Hecky2222]

I’d personally rather just do the scaling in a different thread, but that’s just me.

I don’t remember what the reasoning was exactly, but I think it was something like Feferi reaching the full light of realty was seen as Paradox Space and not the furthest ring. Andrew Hussie being able to see those characters as fiction given he made Paradox Space. Then MSPA Reader becomes bigger than the story which it includes viewing everything including Earth C as fiction. But uh, like I already said there are problems with that

Also wdym? I don’t think Paradox Space has a different (meta?) quality like that compared to the furthest ring, not that I remember (unless you wanna argue it transcends any possible story or something in Homestuck, which is becoming more likely with how some fan adventures are becoming official)

I am at mobile i can't part by part quote like i do at pc so each 1,2,3 will answer three paragraphs you wrote

1. I don't mind. However elaboration wouldn't be bad since it's either might be upscale or i feel like verse would be 1-A
2. Same goes for first answer. However I can't access to scans and want to exactly know context. If so I might agree with High 1-A Baseline if context is valid(However you guys saying it's very problematic). So I would wait for @Thelastmlg elaboration for this.
3. No I didn't mean that. Paradox Space doesn't work as different meta obviously. Thing I tried to say r > f = different meta. So if that's valid(which supporters Deo and you seem to disagree) verse can be High 1-A. If no? 1-A 1 Layers. Still pretty good ngl (and above AWLBA)

 

[Deonment]

1. I don't mind. However elaboration wouldn't be bad since it's either might be upscale or i feel like verse would be 1-A

There isn't any real further elaboration that wouldn't require other threads or discussion to hash out
Like to dumb it down to its simplest level the cosmology is like
Genesis Frogs<Meta-River Hiearchy<The Furthest Ring<Paradox Space
Everything else is debates on where this all lands

2. Same goes for first answer. However I can't access to scans and want to exactly know context. If so I might agree with High 1-A Baseline if context is valid(However you guys saying it's very problematic). So I would wait for @Thelastmlg elaboration for this.

To tldr a bunch of wog and in verse elaboration, Paradox Space is basically the biggest scope of meta-narrative in homestuck, everything within the boundaries of the setting are governed by it, including most notably as the issue here, LE, who's authorial powers surpass Hussie, who himself is the (main) source of the R>F scaling (kinda, it's ******* weird), so if people somehow transcended Paradox Space, then the issue becomes well Paradox Space<Hussie<LE<Paradox Space, and I don't think I need to elaborate further there

3. No I didn't mean that. Paradox Space doesn't work as different meta obviously. Thing I tried to say r > f = different meta. So if that's valid(which supporters Deo and you seem to disagree) verse can be High 1-A. If no? 1-A 1 Layers. Still pretty good ngl (and above AWLBA)

No, it's just 1 layer as is
Technically further stuff is possible but that's a point in a discussion that needs to happen later that I'll prolly start on one of the discussion threads, no idea which one yet

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write well organised, and easily overviewed and understood summaries of the arguments here please? I can ping some staff members afterwards.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Can somebody write well organised, and easily overviewed and understood summaries of the arguments here please? I can ping some staff members afterwards.

The OP asked me to make a summarization, and so I do in respect to that:

So we argued that the 1-A+ R > F of the Rivers was not valid, as they would see the previous "picture" as a single pixel within their making composition. As you can read through the OP itself.

Which is confirmed by this line

"yet none the less for that you in your smallness and your small world are indispensable, like a key piece at the bottom of an infinitely tall jenga tower."

And some other quotes in op itself, which I re-explain also here.

Basically, reading through the comments, even supporters themselves seems to be agree with the downgrade of it, however on the option third (which is all current H1-As will be merely 1-As). As Deonment elaborated further on the context by this comment how Furthering can be 1-A is logical and L1-A doesn't make sense (I.e, "L1-A is wack").

Further we discussed if H1-A is still achievable through Paradox Space itself or not which OP himself brought it up, which supporters themselves denied this notion and said 1-A one layer is more logical at least as of now until more material for the verse comes out.

So I believe the thread has reached to a conclusion over the third option. We are just waiting for the staffs to evaluate as it seems supporters are also easier to discuss further matters outside the main promise of CRT (which is the debunk of so-called 1-A+ structure) in general discussion of the verse or another CRT.

(Hah, interestingly a straightforward CRT with a peaceful conclusion… I think Homestuck folks are kinda funny, should be honest, I like it)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I mean, I don’t really agree based on the picture pixel thing (the hierarchy is literally referred as stacks of universes so wtf) but there are tons of other reasons too so it don’t matter lol

 

[Deonment]

I mean, I don’t really agree based on the picture pixel thing (the hierarchy is literally referred as stacks of universes so wtf) but there are tons of other reasons too so it don’t matter lol

^
Same for the Jenga thing (There are explanations for both I brought up earlier, I just don't think it's 1-A+ anyways rn), but my opinion is shared here

 

[Hecky2222]

I actually wanted to yap and bring Bern's analogy why R>F by itself shouldn't be qualitative. But I am at university, everyone already agreed High 1-A makes no sense whatsoever(so would be useless yap) + someone already reported me apparently(?) So yes I won't argue further about that.

Can somebody write well organised, and easily overviewed and understood summaries of the arguments here please? I can ping some staff members afterwards.

In OP I made section for summarisation for both sides

 

[Antvasima]

The OP asked me to make a summarization, and so I do in respect to that:

So we argued that the 1-A+ R > F of the Rivers was not valid, as they would see the previous "picture" as a single pixel within their making composition. As you can read through the OP itself.

Which is confirmed by this line


And some other quotes in op itself, which I re-explain also here.

Basically, reading through the comments, even supporters themselves seems to be agree with the downgrade of it, however on the option third (which is all current H1-As will be merely 1-As). As Deonment elaborated further on the context by this comment how Furthering can be 1-A is logical and L1-A doesn't make sense (I.e, "L1-A is wack").

Further we discussed if H1-A is still achievable through Paradox Space itself or not which OP himself brought it up, which supporters themselves denied this notion and said 1-A one layer is more logical at least as of now until more material for the verse comes out.

So I believe the thread has reached to a conclusion over the third option. We are just waiting for the staffs to evaluate as it seems supporters are also easier to discuss further matters outside the main promise of CRT (which is the debunk of so-called 1-A+ structure) in general discussion of the verse or another CRT.

(Hah, interestingly a straightforward CRT with a peaceful conclusion… I think Homestuck folks are kinda funny, should be honest, I like it)

@Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42 @SomebodyData

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this thread please?

 

[Hecky2222]

@Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42 @SomebodyData

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this thread please?

If you don't mind could you call also @ExcelsisBerny, @Vietthai96, @Reiner04, @Celestial_Pegasus, @DarkDragonMedeus

Since we are discussing R > F based on +1-D they possess knowledge about that topic. For example there Bern talking about R > F alone not enough for 1-A which is why we agreed Umineko Anime is 1-C instead of 1-A. Pretty sure they might help lot there.

Thanks

 

[Antvasima]

If you don't mind could you call also @ExcelsisBerny, @Vietthai96, @Reiner04, @Celestial_Pegasus, @DarkDragonMedeus

Since we are discussing R > F based on +1-D they possess knowledge about that topic. For example there Bern talking about R > F alone not enough for 1-A which is why we agreed Umineko Anime is 1-C instead of 1-A. Pretty sure they might help lot there.

Thanks

@ExcelsisBerny @Vietthai96 @Reiner04 @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll check later, I have work soon

 

[FinePoint]

If you don't mind could you call also @ExcelsisBerny, @Vietthai96, @Reiner04, @Celestial_Pegasus, @DarkDragonMedeus

Since we are discussing R > F based on +1-D they possess knowledge about that topic. For example there Bern talking about R > F alone not enough for 1-A which is why we agreed Umineko Anime is 1-C instead of 1-A. Pretty sure they might help lot there.

Thanks

True R>F would be 1-A, in that you are qualitatively superior to a reality that is fictional since all of its qualities are thus also fictional and below you, but it's common for a 1-D difference to be expressed metaphorically as viewing the lower dimension as fiction.

This can be extrapolated to the relationship between 1-A and High 1-A as well.

A High 1-A character could be said to view 1-A as fiction in the true sense of transcending all qualities, but without context clarifying what that actually means you could also interpret it as there just being a new axis of 'realness' in which they are one level higher.

Now, to the OP, and recognizing that I don't really know this verse, if they're regularly portrayed as 'infinitely' above, but 'only' infinitely above, that would point more towards a 1-D difference rather than true R>F. You'd want statements more along the lines of size being irrelevant or actually fictional for true R>F.

 

[Hecky2222]

True R>F would be 1-A, in that you are qualitatively superior to a reality that is fictional since all of its qualities are thus also fictional and below you, but it's common for a 1-D difference to be expressed metaphorically as viewing the lower dimension as fiction.

This can be extrapolated to the relationship between 1-A and High 1-A as well.

A High 1-A character could be said to view 1-A as fiction in the true sense of transcending all qualities, but without context clarifying what that actually means you could also interpret it as there just being a new axis of 'realness' in which they are one level higher.

Now, to the OP, and recognizing that I don't really know this verse, if they're regularly portrayed as 'infinitely' above, but 'only' infinitely above, that would point more towards a 1-D difference rather than true R>F. You'd want statements more along the lines of size being irrelevant or actually fictional for true R>F.

I agree with you there about True R > F. We with supporters already agreed Homestuck Universes and Hierarchy not being 1-A+ but instead High 1-B.

But what do you think about Furthest Ring and Paradox Space staying as 1-A? Deo made there good argument for Furthest Ring being 1-A which in my opinion pretty convincing to make verse 1-A and 1 Layer into 1-A.

 

[Vietthai96]

If you don't mind could you call also @ExcelsisBerny, @Vietthai96, @Reiner04, @Celestial_Pegasus, @DarkDragonMedeus

Since we are discussing R > F based on +1-D they possess knowledge about that topic. For example there Bern talking about R > F alone not enough for 1-A which is why we agreed Umineko Anime is 1-C instead of 1-A. Pretty sure they might help lot there.

Thanks

+1D via False/Pseudo R > F transcendence is oke to me, based on the scans

I agree with you there about True R > F. We with supporters already agreed Homestuck Universes and Hierarchy not being 1-A+ but instead High 1-B.

But what do you think about Furthest Ring and Paradox Space staying as 1-A? Deo made there good argument for Furthest Ring being 1-A which in my opinion pretty convincing to make verse 1-A and 1 Layer into 1-A.

1-A for Furthest Ring is oke, unless there is some anti-feats i'm not aware of

I don't see where you get High 1-A Paradox Space from. But based on the OP, at best it is 1 layer into 1-A

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

+1D via False/Pseudo R > F transcendence is oke to me, based on the scans


1-A for Furthest Ring is oke, unless there is some anti-feats i'm not aware of

Thanks for your input Viet

I don't where you get High 1-A Paradox Space from. But based on the OP, at best it is 1 layer into 1-A

And yes, I also don't really see H1-A via Paradox Space Reality > Fiction Transcend for a simple reason:

for R > F to be H1-A jump straight, I believe at least the statements needs the verse implying there exist the potentiality of layers themselves (even if the verse does not possess any layers/layered 1-A structure in sense of any actualized layer or structure, the existence of such a "potentiality"—as in change of essential properties—is what helps one diffrentates a simple quality higher to a whole meta quality) and the R > F itself also already surpassing that potentialities by nature (i.e not being "same manner of transcend" in simpler terms), which can grant it a meta degree.

As far as I see though, Homestuck does not possess that, unless there be more statements implying such.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Bump

Sooooo, OP (in Discord) said he can't be around for a month or so due to IRL things he should go for, and said "any of you can handle the CRT", which I'd take his part on this to continue this CRT (though I believe it is almost concluded, which leaves us with profile changes only).

I believe there is only the need of one admin now.

 

[Ferno1234]

if they're regularly portrayed as 'infinitely' above, but 'only' infinitely above, that would point more towards a 1-D difference

But even "Infinitely above" by itself wouldn't necessarily mean a dimensional difference? Right?