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Toaru Revisions

TIHYDDWBE

TIHYDDWBE

288
137
Just things i've seen that are wrong with the pages

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gunha_Sogiita is severely downplayed. or neglected. Lets start with the ap/dura

Firstly, he has overpowered Lvl 6 shift misakas's attacks, and tanked them aswell.

Aurora Guard is not actually a thing. like most of his techniques theres nothing behind it. He just yells out things and does things. He also never used this against misakas lvl 6 shift either. the one time he yelled out aurora guard was in the LN.

and before anyone mentions that Misaka was injuring him in the LN spinoff, he is holding back. and the more determined he is seems to make him more powerful.

Also his speed should not be supersonic. by the narratives standards he has better speed statements than saints, accelerator or anyone when being compared to supersonic speeds. it's not surprising he also has the best speed feat in the series bar top/god tiers

He has also tanked hits from a semi serious ollerus, who is currently planet level. that's worth keeping in mind.

So he should scale to At least Small Island level ap and dura, and massively hypersonic speed.

I also have a serious bone to pick with Ollerus.

At least supersonic speed is something I can only think of as some sort of mistake. he Blitz's two saints while hes practically dead and he is somehow 100x beneath them at full power and has nanosecond reactions. I don't really need to go any further than that. his speed should be at least massively hypersonic.
 
Bump.

Also Kakines "awakening" isn't a transformation or powerup. It is a mistranslation and does not exist. It is akin to Accelerator realizing his control over wind and gaining more knowledge about his ability.

If you were ever wondering why base kakine is so different compared to his ressurected form in terms of how he uses his power (and how he somehow forget about being "awakened" despite remembering vividly Accels blackwings)it's because as soon as he got the power/knowledge he would later show off in NT Accelerator crushed him.
 
Kakine's awakening isn't like Accel's. Accelerator's awakening is tied to his evolution + new knowledge of magic, angels and etc. Kakine's awakening is tied to his understanding of his own power, which resulted in him becoming one with it after his death.
 
it is just like accels what do you mean knowledge of magic and angels? he didn't know that existed back when he created the plasma ball in the sisters arc. think you are on a different page.
 
Gunha's attacks only overpowered some of Mikoto's attacks, and he only tanked some of them. None of those were comparable to the massive lightning blast she used against the Windowless Building, because in that fight Level 6 Shift Mikoto was focusing in trying to find a way to destroy it while throwing smaller attacks at Touma and Gunha. There's no evidence the attacks Gunha tanked were carryign her full power because she wasn't treating them as a threat, more as an annoyance. And Gunha has been injured by much weaker stuff, so you need solid evidence to support an upgrade.Aurora Guard is actually a thing, unless you want to tell me physically deflecting electricity away by punching it is normal. That it doesn't work like Gunha think it works doesn't matter, he obviously is using some sort of special power. Therefore, any interactions with electricity are feats for this power.

...Are you seriously trying to say Gunha not screaming Aurora Guard or Amazing Punch Guard as he punched Level 6 Shift Mikoto's electricity is somehow evidence supporting your claim that it's not a thing? When it's clear espers don't need to call out their abilities as they use them? When we are explicitly told Gunha's shouts have nothing to do with what he's doing and are just part of his hero persona? When you admit him saying or not saying something holds no value in the same paragraph?

While pretty likely that his determination holds some influence in his power, there's no confirmation of it, which is why it's not a power listed on his page.

Your speed claim doesn't make sense, because even if we disregard calced feats his speed statement is worse than white wings accelerator speed feats. And if are disregarding the calced speed feats of other characters, we are also disregarding his calced reaction feat.

There's no way to tell how hard Ollerus was hitting him, which is why the feat is listed as a stamina/endurance feat and not durability. The series has shown plenty of times that most characters can hold back and control their level of power a lot so they have no issue just defeating much weaker characters without causing them serious harm, as demonstrated by Ollerus just KOing the Sisters in the same chapter Gunha tries to fight him without utterly destroying them.

Unless Ollerus actually fought the Saints directly in a serious battle, we can't actually scale him to their full level of speed, because characters in Index don't always move as fast as they can and it's pretty obvious Kamachi doesn't keep track of how fast he has actually made his characters (as seen by the clearly supersonic Accelerator not being able to easily catch up to a 750km/h powered suit). Otherwise scaling chains like you want to do would make pretty much everyone Saint levels of speed because of people fighting not fully serious Saints and not getting instantly blitzed. Not to mention there was some element of surprise involved in the feat.

We are shown multiple times in the series that power does not necessarily correlate with speed. Nerfed magic gods can stomps Saints, and so far they haven't shown significant speed levels. Fiamma doesn't have any speed feats himself, and we all know how a fight between him and Kanzaki/Brunhild/Acqua/Silvia would go.
 
Gee, I guess saints blitz Ollerus then even though he blitz'd them half dead because ??? headcanon. They were dead serious, mind you.

I can't imagine any other verse having this level of downplay applied to it and frankly, I now think it's not worth my time to even try help.

I think i'll just leave this wiki instead. chao.
 
@Heisuke780

Do you actually need the story to tell you the obvious, that Level 6 Shift Mikoto is not using the full power she demonstrated against the Windowless Building? You know that's literally on the same level as demanding evidence Accelerator or Saints in general are not using their full power when they hit Touma, right?

How about the clear fact none of her attacks are on the same ballpark as the mega lightning bolt she aimed at the Windowlss Building? The fact that she spent more than half the fight facing away from them and occasionally throwing attacks as Mitori waited for her to power up? Or how about the fact that her actions are under Mitori's control, who doesn't care about Touma or Gunha, literally calls them flies and tells Mikoto to "shoo them away" because her only goal is blowing up the Windlowss Building and Academy City? Or the fact that a much weaker Mikoto could cause minor injuries in Gunha while explicitly holding back in Jihanki no Fanfare, so you'd need clear evidence to upgrade him due to this inconsistency and others like him being injured by skillouts with regular guns and ice picks?

The only trades we get to see between Gunha and Level 6 Shift Mikoto are him punching away her smaller lightning blasts (Aurora Guard feat), him blasting apart the wreckage she throws at him and Touma (which I really hope you don't try to claim is Island level), him blasting apart her iron sand sphere (worthless, since we don't know how much stronger it is compared to her regular iron sand shields), Gunha being hit by her compressed energy ribbon things, which are basically featless, as their only feat is launching Gunha into a building and injuring him and cratering him into a wall and injuring him again, plus him holding open the path towards Mikoto for Touma against whatever the hell Mikoto was summoning/creating at the end (feel free to try to quantify that).

@SchroKatze

No, she's was powered up and put under the control of Mitori, who we see doesn't care about Touma or Gunha and only cares about getting Mikoto to destroy the Windowless Building, as explained above.
 
That's like saying someone who is firing an automatic machine gun behind him at someone while not concentrating takes away the power of the machine gun. I haven't read fanfare yet, but i have a feeling if I do my interpretation will be diff from yours.

Well, whatever. I am done here.
 
LazyHunter said:
Unless Ollerus actually fought the Saints directly in a serious battle, we can't actually scale him to their full level of speed, because characters in Index don't always move as fast as they can and it's pretty obvious Kamachi doesn't keep track of how fast he has actually made his characters (as seen by the clearly supersonic Accelerator not being able to easily catch up to a 750km/h powered suit). Otherwise scaling chains like you want to do would make pretty much everyone Saint levels of speed because of people fighting not fully serious Saints and not getting instantly blitzed. Not to mention there was some element of surprise involved in the feat.

We are shown multiple times in the series that power does not necessarily correlate with speed. Nerfed magic gods can stomps Saints, and so far they haven't shown significant speed levels. Fiamma doesn't have any speed feats himself, and we all know how a fight between him and Kanzaki/Brunhild/Acqua/Silvia would go.
Click to expand...
I've also been meaning to bring up Ollerus's speed. Ignoring Kamachi's intent, yes charcters aren't always using max speed but in this instance, are you really denying the fact the two Saints were not serious here specifically Silvia? Brunhild was trying to kill Othinus as quickly as possible before she changed the world as she knows what Gungnir is capable of and Silvia was legit inraged and trying to get revenge at all cost. So unless you think Ollerus is capable of some sort of unsupported teleportation this is valid scaling.

"power does not necessarily correlate with speed" True with some characters but what does this have to do with the Saints and the feat we are discussing? We have seen Nerfed MG's are at least capable of comparable speed in NT13 if they have the need for it. Saints have a certain limit on the level they can use due to having a human body, and MG's dont have a human body to begin with. Fiamma's speed is obviously irrelivant to this convo.
 
The two were trying to kill Touma and Othinus yes. They can do that without moving at full speed, because the beaten down Touma and the super nerfed Othinus can barely even move around at that point.

Not to mention the narration explicitly says they are attacking "at the speed of sound", or that Ollerus at that point is explicitly weaker than an average magician both physically and magically, so in no way does it make sense for him to move at full Saint speeds, given that a regular magician competing with a Saint physically it's always been noted as a sign of the magician being top tier, like Knight Leader or Leivinia.

Or the narration explicitly noting their surprise at seeing him there but being too late to stop themselves (because momentum is a thing).

A sticky explosive sound burst out.

The great noise came from Ollerus as he cut between the two Saints.

But due to the fairy spell, he did not possess any of his special power from being near magic godhood. The strength of his body and the magic he could use were both weaker than the average magician's.

His will made up for what he lacked.

The action he took was simple. He enclosed his arms around the large sword Brunhild swung down. However, he could never stop an attack launched at the speed of sound. The incredible friction tore his hands to pieces.

Even as his hands continued to be destroyed to divert the path of the large sword, he moved those hands.

He tugged so as to pull the sword and Brunhild toward him. He had the sword cross paths with Silvia's empty-handed strike.

"What!?"

"Ollerus!! You idiot!!"

The women spoke up in surprise, but it was too late.

Or NT13 not having magic gods with Saint levels of speed, and bringing up how Saints moving at supersonic speeds can kill themselves with their own momentum and speed, which is why they don't always fight at full speed.

They could achieve supersonic speeds with their own body, so what would happen if someone set up piano wire and escaped using countless sharp turns? It might not apply to all Saints, but at least a few of them would self-destruct by decapitating themselves or flattening themselves against a wall. The Saints pushed themselves and pushed themselves further to draw out their strength, so using their physical bodies to their fullest was a way of triggering their own self-destruction. It almost made one suspect that the greatest threat to a Saint was their own strength and not some external enemy.
 
Sorry one more reply, I just so happened to see this.

> the narration explicitly noting their surprise at seeing him there but being too late to stop themselves (because momentum is a thing).

I like how you disregard "what!?", as if they can somehow turn down their reaction speed by 300x, and then went on to misinterpret everything else.

They can't control their momentum when they see Ollerus? even though they are "holding back" a few hundreds times? Come now.

Jesus christ dude, I didn't think you actually took the supersonic quotes seriously, i'm surprised the profiles don't all just say supersonic. It is the most overused and abused term in the novel, which we can (and apparently do) ignore due to the fact they have better featts shown, as the saying goes, a picture is worth a 1000 words. In case you didn't know the term, it is called Death of the author.

> However, he could never stop an attack launched at the speed of sound.


um, yeah? this is about the AP, not a speed issue. He then guides Brunhilds and Silvias attacks away at the cost of his arms.
 
And again you disregard the rest of the post...

And I guess you have an actual figure for how much time and space the two Saints need to stop themselves when they are slashing at the speed of sound, because whether you like it or not that's the explicit speed they were attacking at that particular moment. You can have some wriggle room if the text said supersonic, but it literally says "at the speed of sound". That's a fact.

Reaction speeds are sometimes inconsistent in Index, just like AP and Durability. Color me shocked. The issue here is that Saints have other and better speed feats. Ollerus does not.

Since the quote is "at the speed of sound" and not supersonic, your next argument here is pointless. The novel literally states the speed they were attacking at that particular moment. Supersonic can be extended upwards given other better feats exist since it technically just means "faster than sound". "At the speed of sound" is pretty clear on what level of speed we are talking about.

You missed the entire point of the quote, which is that it gives us the speed at which both were attacking.

Death of the Author, by the way, it's the idea that the intentions and the author's interpretion of their own work should hold no weight in others' interpretation of their work. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I'm stepping out of this argument, because by this point I've already given my opinion on this multiple times and I'm not a fan of arguing with people who immediately jump in the "downplay" and "headcanon" accusations while disregarding the actual text, something I'm dissapointed to see it's happening a lot lately in Toaru threads.
 
@LazyHunter

You still haven't given a good reason for them to not be trying/moving full speed. "the super nerfed Othinus can barely even move around at that point." You realize Brunhild doesn't know Othinus is nerfed right?

"Brunhild had a silent thought when she heard that. (I need to kill the Magic God without waiting for Silvia's instructions.) Even now, she was not underestimating Othinus's power. She would show no kindness and she would kill when she could kill. She did not want to allow some "fun" now and regret it later. "Then let's get started," said Brunhild coldly while secretly holding the sword's hilt with tremendous strength. In the instant Silvia was focused on the boy, she would crush and kill Othinus. She was prepared to battle an enraged Silvia afterwards, but she would make sure to swiftly kill Othinus now. That was her top priority."

Not only is she trying to kill Othinus but she's trying to do it fast enough that Silvia can't interfere... "because the beaten down Touma" Do you really think Silvia in her current mindset cares about this?

"I don't care." The words spilled from Silvia's mouth and more sticky words continued. "As long as I can kill you, nothing else matters. As long as I can take revenge for that bastard Ollerus, I don't care if I go insane. You don't understand. You really don't. I don't want to go back to normal. If I do, it'll end there. I get the feeling I'll end up forgiving you. But I don't want that. Do you understand? It's not whether I can or not. I don't want to, so I'm choosing not to."

Silvia is clearly not thinking logically and you cant even argue her personality is holding her back like Kanzaki or Acqua. The text even says they take decisive action. I'm not understanding the need to downplay this. "Not to mention the narration explicitly says they are attacking "at the speed of sound", or that Ollerus at that point is explicitly weaker than an average magician both physically and magically" With this nitpicky logic you could easily put all the Saints at "at least supersonic" for the multitude of explicit sound related speed statements. Kanzaki would also somehow be the fastest Saint because Acqua, Bruinhild and Silvia's speeds all come from scaling and with your argument you could say Kanzaki wasn't moving at her calced MHS speed in her fights because every speed statement is stated to be supersonic/at least supersonic. Either that's the speed you use for Saints or if they are proven to be serious we can disregard this and scale to the calced speed.

Like you quoted...

The great noise came from Ollerus as he cut between the two Saints. But due to the fairy spell, he did not possess any of his special power from being near magic godhood. The strength of his body and the magic he could use were both weaker than the average magician's. His will made up for what he lacked.

It says his will made up for all he lacked in the moment so that line of thinking goes out the window. For example you have an issue with Ollerus's seemingly miraculous speed feat but are ok with the fact he's basically human and somehow takes a serious attack from two saints without being instantly killed? "Or NT13 not having magic gods with Saint levels of speed, and bringing up how Saints moving at supersonic speeds can kill themselves with their own momentum and speed, which is why they don't always fight at full speed." This point is irrelivant to Ollerus since Impure MG =/= Nerfed True MG, but there is the fact Nerfed HP wasnt trying to go full speed nor was he taking them seriously, as he was enjoying the chase. The moments he was really trying to catch them he was on their location instantly.

With the help of the electric motor, Kamijou pedaled the acrobike with all his might. Its top speed was over 50 kph, but their distance from the High Priest was not growing. It was unclear whether he was taking this seriously or not. In fact, Kamijou doubted there were any obvious conditions for victory in a battle against a Magic God. Even now, he felt like the mummy was just having some fun.

In what looked like some kind of joke, the purple-robed High Priest formed the crouching pose of a runner. Then the giant arm roared in behind him. It placed itself below the High Priest's very first step and launched the dried mummy horizontally like a frighteningly primitive catapult. The concept of distance meant nothing. It was all compressed in an instant. To move even a little bit further away, Kamijou turned his back and tried to race onward. Mikoto was still sitting sideways behind him. However, the High Priest instantly shot by over her head and performed a side flip to rotate around in midair. It looked more like a way to orient himself than to reduce his momentum. With a very light sound, his feet landed right in the middle of the acrobike's T-shaped handlebars.

Anyways in relation to a Saints speed and Nerfed MG's, it says a Saint's human body can't support using 100% without accidently triggering self destruction, while an inhuman magic god's body can.
 
The Gunha stuff looks fine to me but I do think the "awakened" key for Kakine needs to be removed as

1. There's absolutely no feats.

2. It was a mistranslation

3. Even if Kakine did Awaken his awakening might have been extremely different to Accel's.
 
Kakine's awakening is based on his knowledge of his power. The narration stated that he finally realized his potential and etc. Its also probably the whole reason that he could fuse with his power and create the Dark Matter Network
 
SchroKatze said:
Kakine's awakening is based on his knowledge of his power. The narration stated that he finally realized his potential and etc. Its also probably the whole reason that he could fuse with his power and create the Dark Matter Network
Click to expand...
Kakine gaining an understanding of his powers is not the same as an awakening, which was a mistranslation to begin with.

It also doesn't change the fact that it has no feats either.
 
SchroKatze said:
What I'm talking abou is... Kakine's awakening isn' the same as Accel's.
Click to expand...
Kakine's "awakening" was different because he never awakened in the first place. You could say he "awakened" his potential but that isn't an awakening of any kind just Kakine coming to understand his powers; which we see with Post Revival Kakine.

But let's play devil's advocate for a second and say that Kakine did indeed awaken but his awakening was different from Accel's, then if that was the case he still shouldn't be scaled against Accel's awakening.
 
SchroKatze said:
Kakine's awakening is based on his knowledge of his power. The narration stated that he finally realized his potential and etc. Its also probably the whole reason that he could fuse with his power and create the Dark Matter Network
Click to expand...
It wasn't the capital-letter Awakening as applied to Accelerator though. He merely gained a better understanding of how his power worked, just like Accel "discovered" that he could use his vector control to compress air and create plasma storms.

Awakening involves gaining new powers, like that strange "invisible energy" that Accel is capable of manipulating in his black/white/platinum wing modes. Kakine demonstrated absolutely none of those requirements or conditions. He did not gain new powers, he merely boosted his pre-existing ones.
 
Its incredible how you tried to support Weekly and close the other thread as fast as possible so Regis couldn't debunk him but now you want to extend this thread just to try to get some downplay.
 
It's been 17 some days and Lazy is done in this thread. Would you like to post counter arguments to the suggested?
 
I have yet to see any real counterargument and really just a lot of slander thrown at him, dismissing him using the actual canon text as "downplay". I take him as far more knowledgeable on To Aru and trust his opinion more.
 
I've addressed Lazy's post with "actual canon text". I'll take that as a no to my previous question.
 
Going by what was said, he didn't "concede" in the way that's being implied.

"I'm stepping out of this argument, because by this point I've already given my opinion on this multiple times and I'm not a fan of arguing with people who immediately jump in the "downplay" and "headcanon" accusations while disregarding the actual text, something I'm dissapointed to see it's happening a lot lately in Toaru threads."

It seems more like he got tired of arguing and decided he didn't want to go back and forth about it anymore, rather than saying he was wrong or that the other side was correct about what they were saying.

In either case however, I doubt he's coming back.
 
Well yeah I mean, even after that Zensum seems to have addressed his post if you look above. Unless someone can counter that I don't see anything stopping this suggested revision.
 
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