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yup im vote Enerjak for FRA.
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Because why not: Master Mogul vs True Enerjak
- Thread starter Genericstickman
- Start date
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Well, this is late so formatting be damned, I'm just gonna respond to stuff.
Is there a reason for Sonic performing a feat above the Ancient Walkers who have more power than him, have more experience with said power, and are higher dimensional that isn't "just because"?
Could I also get a source on Knuckles becoming omnipresent, because that wasn't in the comic I read?
I don't know why you're complaining so much about semantics, do you have an example or reason for the terms being different? Because the comic also uses both terms interchangeably, so I'm pretty confident me doing the same isn't wrong.
The only time I implied there was a difference was when Mogul took full control of the force, which...is...different, and I only used different phrasing in that context so people could better understand what I was saying (in vain obviously)
I genuinely have no idea what you're saying for #3. For one thing, I don't know where you got any of that information, but also from what I can tell you also agree that not everyone who's one with the force is equal in strength. If this is the case then what the heck is the problem? If their power varies then obviously they can't all possess the totality of the force's power which is made obvious since Mogul was also one with the force before taking all its power.
Is there a reason for Sonic performing a feat above the Ancient Walkers who have more power than him, have more experience with said power, and are higher dimensional that isn't "just because"?
Could I also get a source on Knuckles becoming omnipresent, because that wasn't in the comic I read?
I don't know why you're complaining so much about semantics, do you have an example or reason for the terms being different? Because the comic also uses both terms interchangeably, so I'm pretty confident me doing the same isn't wrong.
The only time I implied there was a difference was when Mogul took full control of the force, which...is...different, and I only used different phrasing in that context so people could better understand what I was saying (in vain obviously)
I genuinely have no idea what you're saying for #3. For one thing, I don't know where you got any of that information, but also from what I can tell you also agree that not everyone who's one with the force is equal in strength. If this is the case then what the heck is the problem? If their power varies then obviously they can't all possess the totality of the force's power which is made obvious since Mogul was also one with the force before taking all its power.
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1 - It exists, and the reason is hax, and the concept of hax is to ignore all that you said
2 - Knuckles is not omnipresent. Omnipresence is in present everywhere, and not is all places and things, which is what Knuckles is when merging with Force
3 - It is ironic because in the same issue, it is said that Knuckles would become one with the Force of Chaos
4 - The difference is the degree of infinity that beings have with the Chaos Force, they encompass everything, but transfinity exists, that is a infinity greater than the other
5 - Mogul was already one with the Chaos Force, but not existentially speaking. When Zonic says that Mogul became one with the Force, he was referring to Mogul having directly ascended to the Force. This is basic interpretation
2 - Knuckles is not omnipresent. Omnipresence is in present everywhere, and not is all places and things, which is what Knuckles is when merging with Force
3 - It is ironic because in the same issue, it is said that Knuckles would become one with the Force of Chaos
4 - The difference is the degree of infinity that beings have with the Chaos Force, they encompass everything, but transfinity exists, that is a infinity greater than the other
5 - Mogul was already one with the Chaos Force, but not existentially speaking. When Zonic says that Mogul became one with the Force, he was referring to Mogul having directly ascended to the Force. This is basic interpretation
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1 - so...no then? You can't just handwave inconsistencies with "hax" when more powerful characters (aka they have better hax) can't perform lower level feats.
2 - I...know. I didn't say he was, ShadowWarrior did. I was asking for the nonexistent source.
3 - cool? I don't know why this is relevant, that is literally my point.
4 - I don't know what our disagreement is on this. We both seem to understand that not all characters in the Chaos Force are equal.
5 - Mogul went into (or became one with, it doesn't matter) the Chaos Force after he died, he was not one with it prior. If you have a source that says otherwise I'd like to see it, but nothing I've read says that is the case.
2 - I...know. I didn't say he was, ShadowWarrior did. I was asking for the nonexistent source.
3 - cool? I don't know why this is relevant, that is literally my point.
4 - I don't know what our disagreement is on this. We both seem to understand that not all characters in the Chaos Force are equal.
5 - Mogul went into (or became one with, it doesn't matter) the Chaos Force after he died, he was not one with it prior. If you have a source that says otherwise I'd like to see it, but nothing I've read says that is the case.
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1- The transcendent dimension we know as "Chaos Force" has been erased from existence, but Chaos still exists (Power of Chaos Emeralds, Dark Gaia / Light Gaia and Ixis / Chaos Titans). The ontologically form of Chaos was changed (a higher plane), but the chaos is still there.
2 - Ok
3 - I know that's your point, the problem is that his premise is to make the terms "being in the Force" and "merge with the Force" different, but the very edition you sent shows the difference on the terms
4 - Since we agreed on that, ok
5 - I think you did not understand me. I said that Mogul was already one with the Force before, not [existentially] speaking, but energetically. If Mogul only literally became one with the Chaos Force, existentially, after ascending to it, it is obvious that there is distinction in term used
2 - Ok
3 - I know that's your point, the problem is that his premise is to make the terms "being in the Force" and "merge with the Force" different, but the very edition you sent shows the difference on the terms
4 - Since we agreed on that, ok
5 - I think you did not understand me. I said that Mogul was already one with the Force before, not [existentially] speaking, but energetically. If Mogul only literally became one with the Chaos Force, existentially, after ascending to it, it is obvious that there is distinction in term used
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Speaking more about problem 1, a conceptual manipulation [would still] circumvent all the criteria you gave. It is not a question of being more powerful or better manipulating power, but yes resistance. In addition, the Chaos Knuckles had a power which was comparable with the Ancient Walkers powers (in context, it was about attacking / abilities, why existential form of Chaos Knuckles was not united with the Chaos Force to be existencially compare). Super Sonic, which is comparable to Turbo Tails in attacks / abilities, which is consequently comparable to Chaos Knuckles in attacks / abilities, could do the same. So I do not see reasons for Super Sonic destroying the Force being a inconsistency
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Mogul also wounded the Walkers "with the last of his strength" He sure as hell wasn't the insane level he was when fighting the triple threat as Master Mogul. The Master Emerald being shattered is what freed him & consisted of 13 emeralds.
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Yes, there is no abysmal difference between the power level of the Super Forms and Chaos Force beings, there is only difference in the level of existence
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1 - I mention how Chaos still exists and operates the same after the reboot in my CRT and how it not being called "the Chaos Force" is likely due to legal reasons rather than it being erased/altered as it removes the inconsistency.
I'll try my best to make this as easy to understand as possible. Chaos Knuckles is about as strong as the Ancient Walkers, Chaos Knuckles beat the tar out of Turbo Tails, Turbo Tails is "far beyond" Super Sonic. Therefore the walkers are far stronger than Super Sonic. The Ancient Walkers, with all their power and knowledge, could not kill True Enerjak. This means the walkers' conceptual manipulation was not strong enough to overcome Enerjak, meaning Super Sonic's conceptual manipulation is not strong enough to overcome Enerjak, meaning Super Sonic's conceptual manipulation is definitely not strong enough to erase the Chaos Force. Super Sonic can't even defeat Enerjak's avatars, how do you not think him defeating True Enerjak is inconsistent?
3 - I'm confused, are you saying the terms are different or not? Because the comic does not make a distinction. Aurora literally uses both terms interchangeably. If you think there is a difference could you please explain what it is and provide a source/evidence?
5 - I genuinely don't know what you're saying here. Are you referring to how he had trouble maintaining his physical form when he was freed from the Master Emerald? Do you have any scans or anything to show he was one with the force because I've never seen any?
To be fair, Mogul was left basically powerless after wounding the walkers. Also confusingly, the encyclopedia says he wounded the walkers after absorbing Chaos Knuckles' power instead of after he was freed from the Master Emerald, which is what actually happens in the comic. I don't know if this is just an error or if Ian Flynn thought it made more sense for a stronger version of Mogul to almost kill the walkers, but who knows.
The only difference between chaos force being and super forms being their level of existence isn't really grounded in anything. Chaos Knuckles is far stronger than any super form while still being mortal. Enerjak is able to grand mortals power beyond that of a super form. Mogul wounds the walkers while mortal. (unless you're reading the encyclopedia) Yes, chaos force beings exist on a higher plane, but they also clearly have much more power than mortals.
I'll try my best to make this as easy to understand as possible. Chaos Knuckles is about as strong as the Ancient Walkers, Chaos Knuckles beat the tar out of Turbo Tails, Turbo Tails is "far beyond" Super Sonic. Therefore the walkers are far stronger than Super Sonic. The Ancient Walkers, with all their power and knowledge, could not kill True Enerjak. This means the walkers' conceptual manipulation was not strong enough to overcome Enerjak, meaning Super Sonic's conceptual manipulation is not strong enough to overcome Enerjak, meaning Super Sonic's conceptual manipulation is definitely not strong enough to erase the Chaos Force. Super Sonic can't even defeat Enerjak's avatars, how do you not think him defeating True Enerjak is inconsistent?
3 - I'm confused, are you saying the terms are different or not? Because the comic does not make a distinction. Aurora literally uses both terms interchangeably. If you think there is a difference could you please explain what it is and provide a source/evidence?
5 - I genuinely don't know what you're saying here. Are you referring to how he had trouble maintaining his physical form when he was freed from the Master Emerald? Do you have any scans or anything to show he was one with the force because I've never seen any?
To be fair, Mogul was left basically powerless after wounding the walkers. Also confusingly, the encyclopedia says he wounded the walkers after absorbing Chaos Knuckles' power instead of after he was freed from the Master Emerald, which is what actually happens in the comic. I don't know if this is just an error or if Ian Flynn thought it made more sense for a stronger version of Mogul to almost kill the walkers, but who knows.
The only difference between chaos force being and super forms being their level of existence isn't really grounded in anything. Chaos Knuckles is far stronger than any super form while still being mortal. Enerjak is able to grand mortals power beyond that of a super form. Mogul wounds the walkers while mortal. (unless you're reading the encyclopedia) Yes, chaos force beings exist on a higher plane, but they also clearly have much more power than mortals.
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That was a Fake Turbo Tails,created by Mogul,that's why Athair & Merlin where confused as to why he didn't defeat Chaos Knuckles. The Walkers also scattered Enerjak's essence so that he could only influence other echidnas. It's unlikely that his true form couldn't resist the SGW because he was powerless without an avatar.You've also given zero refutation to the First Spark/Last Light,Chaos Titans,& Ixis,which are what the new Chaos cosmology consists of.
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1 - It does not eliminate the inconsistency, simply because there is no inconsistency, I explained why the Force was erased from the Universe too, in previous texts
Turbo Tails is well beyond Super Sonic and remains comparable to it, just as Super Sonic is comparable to Master Mogul, the same Master Mogul who had the power of an Avatar Enerjak, has not changed anything. What do you mean by "inconsistency"? Are you saying he's outlier? For if it is, outlier does not invalidate anything, what would be invalid would be PIS, outlier means just one done out of line and that's it, that was Super Sonic to have destroyed the Chaos Force, nothing much. In addition, Aurora and the Ancient Spirits failed to destroy Enerjak, which was not necessarily something that Super Sonic did, he literally deleted the Chaos Force (Chaos Force is beyond life and death, destroy she in the traditional sense would not help. And the Sword of Acorns destroying the Force that would be PIS)
3 - What? You did not understand me again. I am just stating that the terms are linked, and if the terms are linked, it means that entering the Force = joining with the Force. What you're doing is just giving the reason to me
5 - What ??? I am referring to Zonic's statement, where he says that Mogul was already one with the Chaos Force before merging with it, but he was [ENERGETICALLY] speaking, not existentially, for Mogul only merged [EXISTENTIALLY] with the Force much later. I am explaining again
6 - This last point has already been answered in the previous points
Turbo Tails is well beyond Super Sonic and remains comparable to it, just as Super Sonic is comparable to Master Mogul, the same Master Mogul who had the power of an Avatar Enerjak, has not changed anything. What do you mean by "inconsistency"? Are you saying he's outlier? For if it is, outlier does not invalidate anything, what would be invalid would be PIS, outlier means just one done out of line and that's it, that was Super Sonic to have destroyed the Chaos Force, nothing much. In addition, Aurora and the Ancient Spirits failed to destroy Enerjak, which was not necessarily something that Super Sonic did, he literally deleted the Chaos Force (Chaos Force is beyond life and death, destroy she in the traditional sense would not help. And the Sword of Acorns destroying the Force that would be PIS)
3 - What? You did not understand me again. I am just stating that the terms are linked, and if the terms are linked, it means that entering the Force = joining with the Force. What you're doing is just giving the reason to me
5 - What ??? I am referring to Zonic's statement, where he says that Mogul was already one with the Chaos Force before merging with it, but he was [ENERGETICALLY] speaking, not existentially, for Mogul only merged [EXISTENTIALLY] with the Force much later. I am explaining again
6 - This last point has already been answered in the previous points
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So, I already had most of this typed when I saw Dark Matter's comment, so I'm just gonna do another one for that.
Athair's plan wasn't for Tails to fight Knuckles, he was trying to calm him dow. Also worth noting is despite Athair considering Knuckles to be (relatively) very weak Merlin didn't think Tails was up to it. Yes, the Tails that fought Knuckles was a fake, Merlin seems more concerned with how he acted rather than him being weaker (though he does seem to notice he isn't as strong) Considering Mogul's personal experience with Turbo Tails it's not unreasonable to assume he could make a clone of relatively the same strength.
If Enerjak, while scattered, is able to influence echidnas and grant them powers beyond Super Sonic, then he clearly isn't powerless.
I haven't refuted them probably because no one had mentioned them before. I said on my CRT that I'm not on the up and up on post-SGW events. Based on what information I was able to find, Ixis' backstory almost seems to imply he was present pre-SGW which by extension would mean the Chaos Titans and First Spark/Last Light also existed pre-SGW and were just...passive? I'm not sure, again I'm not caught up on later issues and their pages on Mobius Encylopedia are pretty lacking, citing only a couple issues. (280 and Universe 88 being the most informative)
Athair's plan wasn't for Tails to fight Knuckles, he was trying to calm him dow. Also worth noting is despite Athair considering Knuckles to be (relatively) very weak Merlin didn't think Tails was up to it. Yes, the Tails that fought Knuckles was a fake, Merlin seems more concerned with how he acted rather than him being weaker (though he does seem to notice he isn't as strong) Considering Mogul's personal experience with Turbo Tails it's not unreasonable to assume he could make a clone of relatively the same strength.
If Enerjak, while scattered, is able to influence echidnas and grant them powers beyond Super Sonic, then he clearly isn't powerless.
I haven't refuted them probably because no one had mentioned them before. I said on my CRT that I'm not on the up and up on post-SGW events. Based on what information I was able to find, Ixis' backstory almost seems to imply he was present pre-SGW which by extension would mean the Chaos Titans and First Spark/Last Light also existed pre-SGW and were just...passive? I'm not sure, again I'm not caught up on later issues and their pages on Mobius Encylopedia are pretty lacking, citing only a couple issues. (280 and Universe 88 being the most informative)
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it is unreasonable for Mogul to make an exact clone strength wise of someone he needed energy from in the first place.Again,the Ancient Walkers' & Aurora's efforts where to scatter him so he could no longer be a threat without a vessel. How could Ixis have existed at the dawn of time pre-SGW if Mogul is the one who invented Ixis Magicks? Crystalmancy & Chaos Energy are entirely separate things post-SGW.
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Another thing worth mentioning is that Sonic/Knuckles/Tails didn't even know what Chaos Control was back when they fought Master Mogul,they clearly got stronger since their rookie days.
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I would post that mindhax meme for sh**s and giggles, but it's already mentioned that Mogul at least resists that, if not being immune to it.
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- Thread starter
- #57
I have no ideaMYHERO said:
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Yes, a good point is that Super Sonic has become stronger over time, given the fact of the Great Harmony event, emotions potentialize more your power over etc. The way Fonei is talking, it seems that the Super Forms only have a single level that never changes
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For Dark Matter.
1 - Super Sonic is comparable to Mogul in the sense that he fought him and didn't get pasted, but you're implying that Sonic should be able to replicate Mogul's feats which is ridiculous. Just because Sonic "did it" doesn't make it not inconsistent if it doesn't match up with all other showings. How is it being an outlier not relevant? Superman has like 30 feats that put him well above solar system level, but they're outliers so they aren't considered. The Chaos Force is beyond Enerjak if Sonic can't destroy Enerjak he can't destroy the force, how do you not get this. Sonic erasing the force goes beyond just being PIS it's basically legally mandated stupidity.
3 - So you agree they mean the same same thing? What point are you trying to make?
5 - Contrary to what you said for 3, you differentiate Mogul being "one with the Chaos Force" and "merging with it" something the comic not only doesn't do it doesn't even mention him merging with it. Unless you meant when he took over the force completely but that's completely different. Could you also either explain what you mean when you say he joined it "existentially" and "energetically" or provide a source because I don't think these are actual terms/concepts used in the comic.
For Ad Infinitum.
I'm not saying Ixis magic is the same pre and post SGW. Pre Ixis magic was named after Mogul, its name doesn't have to do with anything, even in-universe, it's basically coincidence they have the same name. Ixis existing pre-SGW is something that seems plausible based on the like one page in the comics I could find detailing him. If he is only post-SGW that would mean Sonic would have had to inadvertently create him which only further adds to the lunacy of the feat.
They've clearly gotten stronger yes, but since after 128 issues (56 to 184) Sonic still isn't strong enough to beat an Enerjak avatar, it's not a substantial increase. Not to mention no matter how much stronger he gets, erasing the Chaos Force using only a fraction of its own power is still hilariously nonsensical.
1 - Super Sonic is comparable to Mogul in the sense that he fought him and didn't get pasted, but you're implying that Sonic should be able to replicate Mogul's feats which is ridiculous. Just because Sonic "did it" doesn't make it not inconsistent if it doesn't match up with all other showings. How is it being an outlier not relevant? Superman has like 30 feats that put him well above solar system level, but they're outliers so they aren't considered. The Chaos Force is beyond Enerjak if Sonic can't destroy Enerjak he can't destroy the force, how do you not get this. Sonic erasing the force goes beyond just being PIS it's basically legally mandated stupidity.
3 - So you agree they mean the same same thing? What point are you trying to make?
5 - Contrary to what you said for 3, you differentiate Mogul being "one with the Chaos Force" and "merging with it" something the comic not only doesn't do it doesn't even mention him merging with it. Unless you meant when he took over the force completely but that's completely different. Could you also either explain what you mean when you say he joined it "existentially" and "energetically" or provide a source because I don't think these are actual terms/concepts used in the comic.
For Ad Infinitum.
I'm not saying Ixis magic is the same pre and post SGW. Pre Ixis magic was named after Mogul, its name doesn't have to do with anything, even in-universe, it's basically coincidence they have the same name. Ixis existing pre-SGW is something that seems plausible based on the like one page in the comics I could find detailing him. If he is only post-SGW that would mean Sonic would have had to inadvertently create him which only further adds to the lunacy of the feat.
They've clearly gotten stronger yes, but since after 128 issues (56 to 184) Sonic still isn't strong enough to beat an Enerjak avatar, it's not a substantial increase. Not to mention no matter how much stronger he gets, erasing the Chaos Force using only a fraction of its own power is still hilariously nonsensical.
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One of Ian Flynn's biggest reasons for the Great Harmony was so that you could only funnel the entirety of the Chaos Force through the 7 servers(Master Emerald too) so no one else could abuse the power any longer,even The Ancient Walkers themselves accessed the Chaos Force only Via Emeralds when they were Mobosaurs,barely evading death from them raining down on Mobius.For all intents & purposes the Emeralds ARE the Force(or how you ascend to it)
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1 - Yes, it could. As Master Mogul mortally wound the Ancient Walkers and Super Sonic manages to keep up with Master Mogul, then Super Sonic would have the same feat, only the damage would be minor and everything more. The difference between Master Mogul and Super Sonic may be large but not so large to have no comparison, plus Master Mogul had the power of Enerjak Dimitri. Even if you consider the databook, Master Mogul with the power of Chaos Knuckles would be inferior to Mogul with the power of Enerjak Dimitri. If Superman has 30 outlier's (or maybe 10, considering that is just a your example), then it would not be outlier e not irrelevant, as it becomes constant, not to mention that what you used of analogy is argumentum ad consequentiam, and outlier is only feat out of line, PIS is a stupidity and contradiction in a made
3 - Yes, I am agreeing, because if the terms are interchangeable, it means that entering the Force of Chaos and joining with the Force of Chaos falls into the same concept, logo means that Enerjak, Aurora, Ancient Walkers are one with Chaos Force, as well as Master Mogul
5 - I will explain in the most understandable way possible with a rhetorical question: Super Shapes have a connection to the Chaos Force, right? They are emeralds alive, right? But is this connection in the matter of energy or in the sense of existence, like as beings of Chaos Force?
Last thing, as I've explained before, Super Sonic changed what was known as "Chaos Force" (the source of Chaos Energy, a plan above the physical plan, post-life and superior post-life). He did not directly affect Enerjak, Aurora, and the others, but yes the Chaos Force
"But these entities incorporate the Chaos Force, so destroying it is the same as destroy the entities"
^ That's true, but they do not personify Chaos Force [ontologically] . Chaos Force is an individual plan and that's it
3 - Yes, I am agreeing, because if the terms are interchangeable, it means that entering the Force of Chaos and joining with the Force of Chaos falls into the same concept, logo means that Enerjak, Aurora, Ancient Walkers are one with Chaos Force, as well as Master Mogul
5 - I will explain in the most understandable way possible with a rhetorical question: Super Shapes have a connection to the Chaos Force, right? They are emeralds alive, right? But is this connection in the matter of energy or in the sense of existence, like as beings of Chaos Force?
Last thing, as I've explained before, Super Sonic changed what was known as "Chaos Force" (the source of Chaos Energy, a plan above the physical plan, post-life and superior post-life). He did not directly affect Enerjak, Aurora, and the others, but yes the Chaos Force
"But these entities incorporate the Chaos Force, so destroying it is the same as destroy the entities"
^ That's true, but they do not personify Chaos Force [ontologically] . Chaos Force is an individual plan and that's it
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First, I want to apologize for my replies taking so long. Between work and Kingdom Hearts I haven't had a lot of free time recently.
Dark Matter
1 ― I want to clarify that when I said "Sonic 'did it'" I was referring to the Chaos Force feat, not defeating Mogul, I realized later that the way I wrote it was a little confusing. Super Sonic does not scale to Master Mogul the way you are suggesting. The combined efforts of him, Hyper Knuckles, Turbo Tails, and the use of a chaos siphon were not enough to beat Mogul. Saying Super Sonic could replicate Master Mogul's feats because he "stood up to him" is a massive leap in logic. If it takes a group of characters to defeat a single character, you can't reasonably scale each member of the group to the same level as the individual the way you are with Sonic and Mogul. For example, it took the entire Justice League to defeat Darkseid in Justice League: War, therefore one cannot reasonably say each member of the Justice League is as strong as Darkseid. Could you maybe explain how the encyclopedia implies that issue 56 Mogul is stronger than issue 150 Mogul because I think you read a different encyclopedia than me? Superman having 30 outliers was an approximation (iirc it's 27 but I didn't feel like looking up the exact number) they're listed on Joke Battles Wiki and depending on who you ask the sheer number would make them consistent, but this site considers them outliers and places Superman at solar system level. PIS feats are also outliers, they actually happened the same as any other outlier. Calling them PIS is a way to identify what kind of outlier it is. For example, Red Hulk decking a watcher is both PIS (closer to WIS honestly) and an outlier.
3 ― well…cool then
5 ― Are you referring to how beings that aren't one with the force can still have a connection to it? Because on top of being downright confusing (afaik the term is never used that way in the comics) it's not really relevant.
Destroying the Chaos Force would absolutely destroy beings who are one with or scattered within it, they act almost as aspects of the force. Even if that wasn't the case, the force is above all of those characters, for Sonic to erase it puts him above those characters by proxy, which just doesn't work. You need a better explanation than adding your own terms to the narrative or just because you said so.
For Ad Infinitum
I see what you're getting at, but the seven Chaos Emeralds (not the Seven Servers) were made using the emeralds from only a single universe. Other alternate universe's emeralds (such as the Anarchy Beryl) still exist and channel chaos energy all the same. They are described as being the physical manifestation of the Chaos Force, but just like the physical manifestation of The Source of All, they aren't it in its entirety. The Master Emerald's existence and its ability to neutralize the other emeralds shows they aren't the force itself.
Dark Matter
1 ― I want to clarify that when I said "Sonic 'did it'" I was referring to the Chaos Force feat, not defeating Mogul, I realized later that the way I wrote it was a little confusing. Super Sonic does not scale to Master Mogul the way you are suggesting. The combined efforts of him, Hyper Knuckles, Turbo Tails, and the use of a chaos siphon were not enough to beat Mogul. Saying Super Sonic could replicate Master Mogul's feats because he "stood up to him" is a massive leap in logic. If it takes a group of characters to defeat a single character, you can't reasonably scale each member of the group to the same level as the individual the way you are with Sonic and Mogul. For example, it took the entire Justice League to defeat Darkseid in Justice League: War, therefore one cannot reasonably say each member of the Justice League is as strong as Darkseid. Could you maybe explain how the encyclopedia implies that issue 56 Mogul is stronger than issue 150 Mogul because I think you read a different encyclopedia than me? Superman having 30 outliers was an approximation (iirc it's 27 but I didn't feel like looking up the exact number) they're listed on Joke Battles Wiki and depending on who you ask the sheer number would make them consistent, but this site considers them outliers and places Superman at solar system level. PIS feats are also outliers, they actually happened the same as any other outlier. Calling them PIS is a way to identify what kind of outlier it is. For example, Red Hulk decking a watcher is both PIS (closer to WIS honestly) and an outlier.
3 ― well…cool then
5 ― Are you referring to how beings that aren't one with the force can still have a connection to it? Because on top of being downright confusing (afaik the term is never used that way in the comics) it's not really relevant.
Destroying the Chaos Force would absolutely destroy beings who are one with or scattered within it, they act almost as aspects of the force. Even if that wasn't the case, the force is above all of those characters, for Sonic to erase it puts him above those characters by proxy, which just doesn't work. You need a better explanation than adding your own terms to the narrative or just because you said so.
For Ad Infinitum
I see what you're getting at, but the seven Chaos Emeralds (not the Seven Servers) were made using the emeralds from only a single universe. Other alternate universe's emeralds (such as the Anarchy Beryl) still exist and channel chaos energy all the same. They are described as being the physical manifestation of the Chaos Force, but just like the physical manifestation of The Source of All, they aren't it in its entirety. The Master Emerald's existence and its ability to neutralize the other emeralds shows they aren't the force itself.
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1 - Of course that is scalable, if the Super Sonic can individually maintain itself with Master Mogul (even if it more weak) then it scales yes. The Justice League case is different because you did not specify if each league member could keep up with him. If you have 30 outlier's, then you should not more outlier as this is consistent. Answering his question, Master Mogul (first appearance) is superior to Master Mogul's second appearance as he stole the power of an Avatar Enerjak while the latter stole that of Chaos Knuckles. This answer already summarizes the entire text of this point
5 - The term is never used that way in comics, so what do you suggest? That Master Mogul (first apparition) has come into unity with the Force? Do you have a better idea? Even the base Shadow has a strong connection to Chaos Force and this is quoted more than once, but it does not mean that it has merged with Chaos Force. These are quite different conclusions
This is a matter of logic, an example: If I change Eternity with my power, which is the embodiment of time, am I changing time or Eternity? Eternity, for it is the embodiment of time, not etymological time, for it is not even sentient to begin with. Another example, a character is quoted as the personification of the author, does that mean that destroying the personification is to destroy the author? That is, this would be fallacy of the composition, for it does not mean that X thing has characteristics of something that this something is etymologically Z. And Enerjak and others are not aspects of the Force, aspects of Force are Super Forms, in general. Enerjak and the others are not aspects, they are literally embodiments of her
5 - The term is never used that way in comics, so what do you suggest? That Master Mogul (first apparition) has come into unity with the Force? Do you have a better idea? Even the base Shadow has a strong connection to Chaos Force and this is quoted more than once, but it does not mean that it has merged with Chaos Force. These are quite different conclusions
This is a matter of logic, an example: If I change Eternity with my power, which is the embodiment of time, am I changing time or Eternity? Eternity, for it is the embodiment of time, not etymological time, for it is not even sentient to begin with. Another example, a character is quoted as the personification of the author, does that mean that destroying the personification is to destroy the author? That is, this would be fallacy of the composition, for it does not mean that X thing has characteristics of something that this something is etymologically Z. And Enerjak and others are not aspects of the Force, aspects of Force are Super Forms, in general. Enerjak and the others are not aspects, they are literally embodiments of her
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Jesus Christ so much wall of text your comments.
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What's the current status for this thread? Is it grace?
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well guess bullshit cut out read your Wall of Text because argue their people voted.
we need Grace ends already!
we need Grace ends already!
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1 - I'm not sure you read issue 56, Sonic is not shown being on Mogul's level, he's very clearly much weaker than him the same way the League is weaker than Darkseid. I'm not the one saying Superman's feats are outliers, the consensus of the site is, you're argument on this point is not with me. I'm almost positive you didn't read issue 149, yes Mogul absorbs Chaos Knuckles' power but on top of Chaos Knuckles not being significantly weaker than Enerjak anyway Mogul then proceeds to (for the tenth time) takes over the entire Chaos Force. Mogul in issue 149 does not just have Knuckles' power, I don't know how you don't get that.
5 - What do I suggest? Um not misusing terms? I know characters don't need to be one with the force to be connected to it, I literally said that. I'm trying to understand what YOU'RE talking about.
Both of your examples have someone affecting a personification/embodiment of something instead of the something they are embodying/personifying. The opposite is the case with Sonic erasing the Chaos Force, as it is the thing Enerjak, Aurora etc. embody. The semantics of "aspect" aside, if they embody the Chaos Force then the force being greater than them is pretty inarguable. Therefore Sonic is both weaker than these characters but stronger than the thing they (and Sonic for that matter) draw their power from, ergo, inconsistent.
5 - What do I suggest? Um not misusing terms? I know characters don't need to be one with the force to be connected to it, I literally said that. I'm trying to understand what YOU'RE talking about.
Both of your examples have someone affecting a personification/embodiment of something instead of the something they are embodying/personifying. The opposite is the case with Sonic erasing the Chaos Force, as it is the thing Enerjak, Aurora etc. embody. The semantics of "aspect" aside, if they embody the Chaos Force then the force being greater than them is pretty inarguable. Therefore Sonic is both weaker than these characters but stronger than the thing they (and Sonic for that matter) draw their power from, ergo, inconsistent.
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1 - He is not of the same level as Mogul, but has a level sufficient to deal damage. If you do damage to someone in a particular tier, that already qualifies you for the particular tier, that's very objective. The site considers as outlier does not aggregate into anything, you are passing the impression that if one is the cause of another, then the other will also be so. This does not exist, it is a particularity of the site, it considers like this and is this. Wrong, Mogul absorbed the power of Chaos Knuckles and then he used that power to rise to Chaos Force. Chaos Knuckles when he had the stolen power was not yet in unity with the Chaos Force plan
5 - I am pleased that you have understood
On this, it is a fairly simple case. Conceptual manipulation, as I had said before. Sonic does not have to have a greater power than Enerjak, Aurora and Ancient Walkers, it simply destroys the platonic concept (Chaos Force) to which they are linked. Also, conceptual manipulation will ignore your stamina even if you are at a higher level because the purpose of conceptual manipulation also is this
5 - I am pleased that you have understood
On this, it is a fairly simple case. Conceptual manipulation, as I had said before. Sonic does not have to have a greater power than Enerjak, Aurora and Ancient Walkers, it simply destroys the platonic concept (Chaos Force) to which they are linked. Also, conceptual manipulation will ignore your stamina even if you are at a higher level because the purpose of conceptual manipulation also is this
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1 - Mogul literally swats Sonic and Knuckles away, the only times they hurt him are when they catch him off guard. I'm not saying they don't scale at all, I'm saying they don't scale to the degree you say they do. I literally have no idea what you're saying about Superman's outliers; what I was trying to get across to you was that if a feat is an outlier it doesn't matter that the character actually performed the feat because it's effectively discarded. Yes, Knuckles was not one with the force when his power was absorbed, but that's so irrelevant I don't know why you brought it up. If you read the sca you'll see Mogul used the imbalance caused by Knuckles' revival to take over the entire Chaos Force meaning he has more than just Knuckles' power. Any power Enerjak has is less that Mogul in this instance because he has 100% control of Enerjak's power source.
5 - yeah, sure thing
So after reading the page outlining conceptual manipulation, I don't think it works the way you think it does. CM does not let one bypass a difference in power, if someone's CM is only shown to be 4C then they can't use their it to affect a 3A being. On top of that, saying Sonic's CM fixes the issue with this feat is a self-fulfilling prophecy since this feat is Sonic's only showing (afaik) of having CM. (not to mention that since Sonic is attempting to alter reality and is only indirectly said to have affected the Chaos Force via WOG it seems to fit the site's explanation for not even being CM) You're using the very feat I'm contesting as evidence for the feat's validity. Not that any of that even matters anyway, CM does not solve the problem this feat creates. Sonic, even with CM, cannot logically affect the Chaos Force due to it being his source of power. It's completely nonsensical for Sonic to use only a fraction of the Chaos Force and completely rewrite it, this is like saying a AA battery has more power than a 12 volt. Sonic and Megaman passively resist the reality warping of the SGW, how is Sonic using the same level of power as the SGW to erase an infinitely greater force than himself not assinine?
5 - yeah, sure thing
So after reading the page outlining conceptual manipulation, I don't think it works the way you think it does. CM does not let one bypass a difference in power, if someone's CM is only shown to be 4C then they can't use their it to affect a 3A being. On top of that, saying Sonic's CM fixes the issue with this feat is a self-fulfilling prophecy since this feat is Sonic's only showing (afaik) of having CM. (not to mention that since Sonic is attempting to alter reality and is only indirectly said to have affected the Chaos Force via WOG it seems to fit the site's explanation for not even being CM) You're using the very feat I'm contesting as evidence for the feat's validity. Not that any of that even matters anyway, CM does not solve the problem this feat creates. Sonic, even with CM, cannot logically affect the Chaos Force due to it being his source of power. It's completely nonsensical for Sonic to use only a fraction of the Chaos Force and completely rewrite it, this is like saying a AA battery has more power than a 12 volt. Sonic and Megaman passively resist the reality warping of the SGW, how is Sonic using the same level of power as the SGW to erase an infinitely greater force than himself not assinine?
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That's...an amazing point. Super Sonic <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Chaos Force, yet Sonic somehow erases it.
Damn, Sonic profiles are full of circular reasoning.
Damn, Sonic profiles are full of circular reasoning.
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Yes I am quite beautiful ovo
Is this a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure reference?
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What level is Archie Super Sonic to you,Foney?(Power,Speed,Durability,Hax)
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Well sonic grown up to be the literal embodiment of chaos, have you guys heard of rule of thumb?The real cal howard said:
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1 - Super Sonic and Master Mogul hurt Master Mogul unawares? Oops, it came to the point that I wanted, that already closes the question. What? No, absolutely not. Outlier does not rule out *nothing*, what rules out is the PIS, again, Outlier only means *done off the line*. If you base yourself on the page, fine, but I base on the real meaning of Outlier. Of course it has relevance, becoming one with the Force has much more difference in the level of existence because you get rid of mortal limitations and become divine in the purest sense of the word (but does not change the power). And no, Mogul absorbing the entire Force of Chaos only means that he came into unity with her as well as Enerjak, Neo Walkers and Ancient Walkers, Mogul can not simply acquire all control of the Force and leave the others "behind" since the others also embody the Force, what you said did not make sense
5 - In the page of conceptual manipulation does not say anything about characters inferior to the specific concept can not destroy it. SGW did not affect Chaos Force indirectly, it simply *affected everything* (space, time, matter, energy, laws of physics, and concepts like Chaos Force and Illumina). As for that, it's quite simple, Super Sonic has only affected its power source with a specific power for such a thing, the Chaos Energy source still exists, but the source of that energy is no longer treated as a transcendent higher plane, but as something else, and again, conceptual manipulation still bypasses this; For example, it is not because a character is material that he can not change the concept of matter (he will undergo changes, but only a resistance against conceptual manipulation, as in the case of Emeralds, staying immutable even when the concept that represents you is altered / destroyed)
And @Cal, incredible point why? Why is it biased for you? The old Cal, who always makes stupid replicas on the verse of Sonic thinking that it is a "Mister Debunk" .. Anyway, do not mess up, the adults are talking. Then after daddy comes to refute you (this if you have, now, stupid replicas)
5 - In the page of conceptual manipulation does not say anything about characters inferior to the specific concept can not destroy it. SGW did not affect Chaos Force indirectly, it simply *affected everything* (space, time, matter, energy, laws of physics, and concepts like Chaos Force and Illumina). As for that, it's quite simple, Super Sonic has only affected its power source with a specific power for such a thing, the Chaos Energy source still exists, but the source of that energy is no longer treated as a transcendent higher plane, but as something else, and again, conceptual manipulation still bypasses this; For example, it is not because a character is material that he can not change the concept of matter (he will undergo changes, but only a resistance against conceptual manipulation, as in the case of Emeralds, staying immutable even when the concept that represents you is altered / destroyed)
And @Cal, incredible point why? Why is it biased for you? The old Cal, who always makes stupid replicas on the verse of Sonic thinking that it is a "Mister Debunk" .. Anyway, do not mess up, the adults are talking. Then after daddy comes to refute you (this if you have, now, stupid replicas)
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I'm sorry, what?
ShakeResounding
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@Dark That was unnecessary. Cal doesn't have a blind hatred for Sonic (even if he does have a meh record with the series). Even if he did, belittling him and referring to him as a child isn't how to go about it.
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It's also a good way to get banned. People forget that I can and will do that, and insulting anyone, staff or otherwise, is against the rules.
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The only major points of contention I have are him erasing the Chaos Force and him having passive fate manipulation.ED INFINITUM said:
The only possibly dubious feat for base is the Quantum Dial only because it's really vague on what he actually does, but that's not something I really contend, the feat's just weird in its portrayal. Even then, it would only be his AP as his durability is already astronomical in base; not even counting the Quantum Dial as 4B durability, he still gets launched almost a million lightyears only to fall asleep, and in the next issue take a beating from Super Sonic, and Super Scourge way later.
Super Sonic physical AP is universal at the very least, personally, I consider the zone him and Knuckles destroyed to be a pocket dimension rather than a full-blown universe, but that doesn't really matter since pocket dimension such as the Special Zone can also be infinite in size, so it would still be universal. (there's an argument to be had that he's only planetary but I don't think it holds very well) He does get stronger after that event though and has the off-panel feat of defeating Solaris. Even though we don't see how they defeated Solaris I'd probably put him at multi-universal (is that the same as low multiversal? this stuff gets confusing)
His hax are at least multiversal (for obvious reasons) My argument is in exactly how powerful his hax are, but it's definitely 2A.
His durability should be the same as his AP/hax. He and Knuckles did tank the universe exploding but they lost their super forms; they do become stronger later however, I think Solaris also works to show his increased durability. He also passively resists the 2A reality warping of the SGW (I'm not going to pretend to know if his durability scales to that or just his hax resistance tho)
This ended up being a lot longer than I intended. I probably also forgot something here or there.
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