Archie Sonic: Chaos in the Chaos Force

So, because I'm a big dummy, I originally posted this as a blog. After being given a source for a quote, I revised a couple of paragraphs most of which are noted, but aside from that, it's the same stuff here that's there.

So, I've noticed that Archie Sonic (Super Sonic to be specific) has been credited on this site as having erased the Chaos Force from existence, and not to give away my stance on this early but this feat is absolutely bogus on two fronts.

Let's get into it, shall we?

The backstory for the feat, due to a lawsuit, Archie Comics had to reboot the continuity of their long-running Sonic series. This reboot was done through the crossover event "Worlds Collide" in which Sonic attempts to restore his multiverse after it was altered by Eggman and Wily. His attempt is interrupted by Eggman, however, and this results in many characters, events, and concepts being erased from the comic's continuity.

One such concept that ceased to make an appearance in the comic is the Chaos Force, energy that exists outside of spacetime and binds the multiverse together. It is also, as you can imagine, is the source of power for things such as the Chaos Emeralds.

Writer Ian Fynn stated on his forum that the Chaos Force is no longer in the comics. shown here

Unsurprisingly, many assume that when Sonic caused the reboot he erased the Chaos Force seeing that it's no longer used. There are a few problems with this, however…

Edit: The following paragraphs were written prior to my reading the actual forum post. This paragraph is being added as a qualifier to my previous conclusion with the main alteration being that one could say the force was technically erased but is probably the most literal case of plot induced stupidity. Flynn does specifically say "'Chaos Force' doesn't exist in the comic anymore" but his reference to "the purge" (the removal of all things original to Penders' writing) and him saying, "that's the word as far as I know" implies that legally, by mandate of SEGA, they not only can't call the emerald's energy "the chaos force" but also can't specify on the energy at all. Additionally, while it may seem like splitting hairs, him putting "Chaos Force" in quotes instead of saying "the Chaos Force doesn't exist" could be interpreted as him referring to the literal phrase of "Chaos Force" being dropped, which is again supported by him elaborating on SEGA's mandate on how chaos energy works. At any rate, his phrasing makes the statement more of a matter of interpretation than being clear cut on it being erased.

A concept being dropped from the comic does not inherently mean it no longer exists. Characters such as Rob O the Hedge and Mari-An along with locations and concepts created by Ken Penders abruptly vanished from storylines due to the lawsuit prior to the reboot, but all these things still technically existed. Since I have not read Ian Flynn's exact wording, I can only go off the wording on Mobius Encyclopedia, the way it's said, it could be interpreted that the Chaos Force still exists but is merely dropped from the writing process to avoid legal issues like all other things Penders made prior to the reboot. (edit: this one is mostly interpretation)

Ian Flynn, when speaking about The Source of All also on his forum, confirms that the law of conservation of energy applies to the Archie canon meaning the Chaos Force could not have been wiped from existence entirely, it would have to have been converted into something else. Ian makes no reference to it being converted, further contributing to the possibility of it simply not being mentioned.

To further substantiate this, characters and objects that previously relied on the Chaos Force to function (Chaos Emeralds, Power Rings, Shadow, Knuckles, etc.) continue to operate the same way with no issue post reboot implying further that the Chaos Force still exists but is not mentioned for legal reasons. (Edit: this is basically what my qualifying sentence says)

In addition, the Chaos Force does not exist within the multiverse itself, it has been stated several times that the Chaos Force exists outside the realm of time and space. This means that Eggman and Wily (and by extension Sonic) reshaping the multiverse does not require that they affect the Chaos Force (except for legal reasons of course) and nothing implies that they did.

Now all of that can be seen merely as my interpretation of what Ian Flynn said, however, even if the feat actually did happen the way some claim it did, it's hilariously inconsistent.

Saying this feat is legitimate throws the power scaling of the entire verse out of whack.

Super Sonic has consistently been shown to be below the level of an Enerjak Avatar:

Master Mogul, after draining Dimitri's power, was more than a match for not only Super Sonic but also Hyper Knuckles and Turbo Tails. (Issue 56)

Dark Enerjak defeated (and for all intents and purposes, killed) Super Sonic in the Dark Mobius timeline (Issue 28 of Sonic Universe)

Sonic is able to fight evenly with Knuckles Enerjak, but only after he is severely weakened (Issues 183 and 184)

Having Sonic erase the Chaos Force confusingly creates a situation where he is both stronger than True Enerjak (who exists within the Chaos Force and gives his avatars their power) and weaker than his avatars; it also paradoxically scales Enerjak's avatars to be stronger than True Enerjak himself.

Other beings who naturally scale above Super Sonic are the Ancient Walkers, Master Mogul, and Chaos Knuckles.

The Walkers scale just below True Enerjak

Master Mogul scales to Walkers

Chaos Knuckles scales to about the Walkers

All of these characters are below the Chaos Force (the walkers exist within it with Mogul and Knuckles scaling just above and below them respectfully) and Super Sonic usurps them all with this single feat despite all other evidence pointing towards the opposite.

This also creates another problem as Hyper Knuckles, who is shown to be Super Sonic's equal, should scale to this ludicrous feat making his hyper form stronger than his chaos form not only making the chaos form superfluous but also contradicting feats and statements saying otherwise.

And what's probably the most heinous example of this feat not holding up to scrutiny when scaled to other characters, after events that aren't pertinent to the conversation Mammoth Mogul was able to take over the Chaos Force in its entirety, not a large part of it, the whole thing, the whole outside-reality-existing multiverse-binding thing. It was stated that, before being defeated by Titan Tails, he was the ultimate power in the multiverse. Him being the entire Chaos Force logically means that he is stronger than anyone else who utilizes the force except, of course, Super Sonic due to this feat.


Source that he had taken over the entirety of the Chaos Force

Source that he was the ultimate power in the multiverse like Tails before him

The Chaos Force existing on a higher plane of reality alone should be enough to show that Sonic is not powerful enough to erase the force. As stated before, the Chaos Force would have had to be converted into another state had Sonic affected it. Doing so, however, would go far beyond what Sonic has been shown capable of and go beyond what he should reasonably be able to since he is powered by the Chaos Emeralds, which are only a fraction of the force's power. Sonic cannot logically erase a fundamental aspect of the multiverse by using only part of that aspect. Sonic and Mega Man, who are both being powered by the Chaos Force, are able to resist the effects of the Super Genesis Wave. However, when Sonic utilizes chaos control to undo the wave's effects he's somehow able to overpower and erase the very thing he draws his power from.

Them not being affected by the wave

in case that was ever in questio

In conclusion, this feat is wildly inconsistent with what has been previously shown going against the very nature of the comic in addition to being dubiously factual, to begin with. This leaves one with two options:

A. this feat did not actually happen

B. this feat is an enormous outlier

Thank you for reading.


EDIT: Maverick Zero X provided the source for Ian Flynn's statement.

The Chaos Force has been erased from the continuity of the comics, but also in the context of the story itself. The motives: Ian Flynn in his forum, said that SGW rewrote everything, used MaginaryWorld, No Zone, Universes and etc as examples. The essential ontology of the emeralds / chaos energy changed in the Post Gen Age (Dark Gaia and Light Gaia / Ixis & Chaos Titans). In addition, we have Master Mogul (Super Mogul, not Chaos Force Mogul) mortally affecting the Ancient Spirits, which are one with the Chaos Force (databook confirms), which is not at all absurd to say that Super Sonic would be able to modify the Chaos Force also. Law of Conservation of Energy exists, but what is the problem? In the Post Gen Age, this law could simply be another, not Chaos Force anymore.

While I don't go over Flynn talking about the other universes that were affected by the SGW, I basically go over the rest of this.

Mogul used the last of his power to blast the walkers with chaos energy. How on earth does that mean that someone with less power than him can rewrite a stronger force than the walkers?

The Chaos Force needing to be converted is the problem. Sonic does not have the power required to perform such a feat. Altering reality is not the same as altering the force as it exists outside of reality. My argument is that it is still the Chaos Force they just can't legally call it that anymore.

Again, Chaos Force is no stronger than Ancient Walkers, they are already Chaos Force. Once you enter the Chaos Force, you become one with her. No, no exists more Chaos Force because now the origin of emeralds (within the context of history itself) the same as in games. Again, Chaos Force is no stronger than Ancient Walkers, they are already Chaos Force. Once you enter the Chaos Force, you become one with her. No, no exists more Chaos Force because now the origin of emeralds (within the context of history itself) the same as in games. Another thing, Enerjak, Aurora and Athair are one with the Chaos Force, soon the Chaos Force are them and vice versa, in short, at the time Post Genesis Era, there is no longer any member of the Knuckles clan and Knuckles is the last descendant , soon Enerjak, Aurora and Athair never existed, soon to Chaos Force never existed because the Chaos Force is them. Another thing, Enerjak, Aurora and Athair are one with the Chaos Force, soon the Chaos Force are them and vice versa, in short, at the time Post Genesis Era, there is no longer any member of the Knuckles clan and Knuckles is the last descendant , soon Enerjak, Aurora and Athair never existed, soon to Chaos Force never existed because the Chaos Force is them

One point leads to another, and it is with these causal points that you discover that the Chaos Force has been erased in both things: continuity of the comics and in the context of the story itself

I think you accidentally wrote everything twice.

I don't think you're understanding the difference between all those characters being "in the force" and Mogul "being the force" similar to other works of fiction such as the Speed Force from DC of the Force from Star Wars characters can exist within "the force" without "the force" as a whole also being them. Nothing ever implies anyone besides Mogul or Titan Tails possessed the Chaos Force in its entirety. I don't know any other way to explain this.

"infinity + infinity = infinity,there's nothing more to gain when you have everything" -Ian Flynn.

Just taste that the statement "become a power of the chaos" does not mean that he has melted completely with it, for this is well obvious.It simply has nothing to talk about, the strength of chaos and he became one, understand?

There's two things to consider for scaling,the fact that no one used all 7 post harmony Chaos Emeralds until Worlds Collide, & variable tier like in Sega Canon.If the former is taken into account than Super Sonic as of Worlds collide is likely more powerful than Master Mogul(Chaos Force) & True Enerjak since only 12/14 emeralds can perform 2-A feats.If the latter is true than there's reason to believe they can reach that level anyways via better understanding of "Dreams to Reality" & kinda sorta reactive evolution the Emeralds have. Zonic also states that Sonic Prime is destined to become champion of all realities,which may have been foreshadowing the surpassing of all the other Chaos Entities.

@AD

No, Sonic in the fight against ADAM jumped in the middle of the whirlwind of emeralds and used his power

Technically all seven were used in the Genesis story but due to the altered reality shenanigans of that story, I can understand not counting it. It's also never implied (as far as I'm aware) that the post harmony emeralds are more powerful than the pre harmony emeralds to any significant degree. It's obvious that they weren't simply merged together the way the Master Emerald was or they'd each be hundreds of times more powerful than it.

But anyway, I completely fail to see the logic in Mogul with 100% of the Chaos Force somehow being outclassed by not only the Chaos Emeralds but also Sonic who only uses some of the emerald's power. Even if the post harmony emeralds had all the power of the hundreds of pre harmony emeralds it doesn't make any sense for the emeralds from a single universe to have more power than the chaos force as a whole considering it's their power source.

Edit: So ironically, that Ian Flynn quote you posted is him confirming the pre and post harmony emeralds are equal, so there goes that argument.

I also forgot about your other point so here we go. Any understanding Sonic gained of the emerald's power would be inconsequential compared to Mogul's centuries worth. Zonic's statement being foreshadowing of something that's only implied via WOG is conjecture, sooo yeah.

Yes, your last answer to AD is right.

Except Super Sonic's SGW feat is equal to or greater than Master Mogul's zone by zone destruction,Titan Tails performed the literal exact feat after absorbing the Chaos Force,IMO that supports Sonic's scaling to Mogul,Enerjak,& The Ancient Walkers,& since infinity is infinity,Mogul's 1st & 2nd forms would be equal since he gained no further mastery in that period of time.

@Foneybone1

So what level do you propose downgrading Sonic to? Small planet level like Ultraguy?

The entire Brotherhood of Guardians lived for centuries aswell & they have some of the best understanding of Chaos Energy,yet Knuckles was the only one who could ever reach a Super State.You're acting like the lore is airtight.

The Great Harmony is still also up for debate,there's really no proof that Locke & Sabre are infinitely more powerful than Turbo Tails & by extension Feist.The connotations of the event could very easily qualify as Death Of The Author.

Yeah I commented several times.Wanna fight about it? ovo

You can leave the multiple comments. I'm not going to ask you to edit them all together or anything.

The problem with the ∞=∞ statement is it implies all things/characters with infinite power are equal, and we see this is not the case throughout the series. All Chaos Emeralds are said to be infinite but having more clearly equals more power, Eggman and Wily couldn't alter their realities to the extent they wanted with one emerald, they needed all seven. Super Sonic, Hyper Knuckles, and Turbo Tails together are all bellow Master Mogul. The Master Emerald is stronger than the Chaos Emeralds and they're both infinite. Yes, Mogul's understanding/mastery is the same, but he has far more power in 149-150. How do you not understand that 12 emeralds are weaker than the entire Chaos Force? Titan Tails overpowering Mogul doesn't create the same inconsistency as Sonic erasing the force since Tails doesn't use chaos energy to do so. Super Sonic also doesn't scale to Titan Tails, like at all. Sonic is consistently below an Enerjak avatar, (or an equivalent in Master Mogul's case) but using Chaos Emeralds that aren't any stronger than before he's able to defeat True Enerjak, something even the Ancient Walkers couldn't do, how is this not inconsistent?

Didn't Ultraguy redact most of that blog? I remember there was a discussion about it and he joined, but I didn't keep up with it. Either way, the only issue I take with this feat is the claim that Sonic is above the Chaos Force, I have no problem with him altering the multiverse. Literally, all I want is this inconsistency removed (and the fate hax thing but one CRT at a time)

Did you forget the part of Knuckles' backstory where he was genetically altered to be a living chaos emerald? He has a far greater connection to the force than any other guardian. Yes, they had better knowledge/understanding but he had more raw power.

Inconsistency? What is inconsistent when this is simply conceptual manipulation for the purpose of destroying abstractions? What is inconsistent when Chaos Knuckles, before joining with the Force, was quoted as having the same power as the Ancient Walkers? There is no difference in power between the super forms and beings of Chaos Force, what makes both different is the level of existence, not of power

Do you want a real inconsistency? Sword of Acorns killing the Ancient Walkers. That's a big PIS, Archie's biggest PIS

@Dark To be fair, they were already weakened. The SoA was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

@Shake Weakened yet having infinite power and still being many degrees beyond the physical plane