Because why not: Master Mogul vs True Enerjak

[MYHERO]

So what's the conclusion here?

 

[Dark_Matter557]

I know that this is just your personal opinion, like you said, but just because it's your personal opinion that doesn't mean it will be free from criticism. Let's go;

Nothing to declare about the Quantum Dial, i think you came to the objectively right conclusion. Super Sonic being only Universal physically? I don't know if you are aware of this, but the physical manifestations of the Chaos Force, the Emeralds/Super Forms, do not have a difference in brute power with the Chaos Force itself. Ascending to the Chaos Forces does not increase you destructive power and resistance, only frees you from your mortal limitations, see Aurora doing an analogy to Knuckles that ascending to the force is like a sun reaching a supernova, becoming divine is its most pure meaning. And like you must know, the Force is everything and it's beyond everything, such as being above the highest plane until now (The Virtual Zone), so this would scale the Super Forms to 2-A, in addition, the Zone that was destroyed by Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles was a Special Zone, the same from the games, which is a different dimension in addition to having, obviously, its own personal time and space. About Solaris, he would consume the whole existence, like in the games too, which is a 2-A feat and ends up also scaling to the Super Forms since they defeated him, i don't really know where did you got the "Multi-universal/Low Multiversal" from this, are you forgetting that the Archieverse is infinite, dude?

No, no and no. The SGW isn't just hax but it's also made of the very physical energy of a Super Form, because the Chaos Control is what forms the base of all the powers envolving the chaotic energy, stating that this is only hax is like stating that all Super Sonic's powers are hax, even his punches (since his punches and energized by the Chaotic Power). The SGW is both AP and Hax.

 

[Foneybone1]

Sorry I haven't responded to your other reply yet, I'm getting to it.

Did you miss the "at the very least" I wrote after "universal"? Do you have a source on "physical manifestations of the Chaos Force...do not have a difference in brute power with the Chaos Force itself" because that sounds made up? The encyclopedia saying Knuckles assended beyond the Ancient Walkers after merging with the force kind of implies you're wrong. Additionally, the Chaos Force being 2A does not mean the super forms automatically scale to the same level since they don't utilize all its power. I don't know why you brought up the zone Sonic and Knuckles destroyed, I already said it would count as a universal feat. (also it's not the special zone from the games, that not how that works) Yes Solaris is 2A, and like I said Sonic has 2A warping feats, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that they affected him physically in any way.

What on earth are you talking about? The physical energy of a super form? Reality warping is hax, how is me saying that the same as saying Sonic utilizing energy projection or physical attacks are also hax? Using Chaos Control to rewrite reality is hax, it's also AP, but it's AP via hax. That's why I differentiated physical AP from AP via energy projection/hax.

In a fun twist you missed an actual mistake. Universes in Archie are not infinite, I thought I remembered reading the Void was but upon reading back over the encyclopedia, that is not the case.

 

[Foneybone1]

Sorry for the double post.

1 - If a feat is an outlier, it's effectively thrown out, whether it's PIS or otherwise. If you want to use a different definition than the site, that's your problem, not mine. If there's no increase of power when one enters the Chaos Force (this is not true but let's pretend) what difference does it make when Knuckles' power was taken? According to you, he'd have the same amount of power to steal before and after merging with the force. Please, please, just read the sca, it's only one sentence. Mogul was already one with the force, then he takes it over completely after Knuckles returns to life. How can you possibly claim it makes no sense for Mogul to take full control of the force while also arguing Sonic could erase it?

5? - Yes that is correct, it does not say they can't, but it also doesn't say they can. If it doesn't say they can, you can't just say they can on the grounds that the page doesn't specifically say otherwise. So after rereading your comment I think what you're trying to say is just because Sonic is 3 dimensional doesn't mean he can't affect the 4D Chaos Force (is it only 4D? idc) While this is technically true, if a character has manipulated concepts of a higher dimension than himself then his CM can...do that. But again, this is Sonic's only feat of doing something like this and it's the feat I'm contesting; if I argue a feat is problematic you can't use that same feat to say I'm wrong. There is also still the problem of Sonic affecting the entire force utilizing only a fraction of its power. I didn't say the SGW affected the force indirectly (I don't think it affected it at all but more to the point) I'm was saying Flynn indirectly attributes the feat to Sonic. Like I said in my CRT, I'm arguing the Chaos Force still exists and operates the same way, but Archie legally can't couldn't say it did. What you seem to be arguing is rather than erasing the force he warped it into a new form, this still presents the same problems, however, problems that just saying "he has conceptual manipulation" don't fix.

 

[Foneybone1]

Woah, look at that, a triple post.

Since Dark Matter and I have been talking past each other for three weeks and have gone way off topic, I'd like to make a desperate attempt to end this freaking thread.

1. The reasons cited for Enerjak's victory are invalid. (and by extension all his votes) Hyper Knuckles never resists Mogul's mind hax because Mogul never attempts to mind hax Hyper Knuckles. Furthermore, Enerjak taking over Chaos Knuckles is hardly impressive when you realize it took years to do so, and when he did take over it was because Knuckles gave in willingly. Dark Enerjak defeating Super Sonic is an irrelevant feat in this discussion since the weaker first Master Mogul A. is at least as strong as an Enerjak avatar and B. is also shown to be capable of defeating Super Sonic. This same weaker version of Master Mogul also mortally wounds the Ancient Walkers, which is more impressive than the walkers needing the weaker Aurora's help to scatter Enerjak.

2. Reasons Mogul wins, put as simply as I can manage: Mogul=Chaos Force, because reading. Enerjak>Chaos Force because, being a part of a concept, naturally, puts one below said concept. Therefore, Mogul>Enerjak.

 

[Dark_Matter557]

Minimum? Dude, the minimum of the minimum is ininite, not universal. About the Chaos Force, there is a increase in power, yes, but there's not a big difference, like Chaos Knuckles having a comparable power that those of the Ancient Spirits before ascending to the Chaos Force, Turbo Tails fighting the same Chaos Knuckles and Turbo Tails fighting Master Mogul(that fought Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles). Is this enough source for you? It seems that you forgot about these things. Yes, it's the Special Zone from the games, want me to bring a scan?

Wrong again. The SGW isn't AP via Hax, it's hax and AP. The Super Charged Chaos Control in Worlds Collide is basically the essence of the Chaos Control, and again, the Chaos Control is the basis of all of the powers envolving Chaotic Energy. The SGW is considered hax because it warps reality and just because of that, but it can also be used to destroy. The SGW has two main uses, rewrite and destroy, the first being hax and the second one being pure AP. You saying that all the destruction (AP) that the SGW causes is just hax is sincerely alienation of what "hax" means. Universes in the archieverse aren't infinite...so? It still has infinite universes. 1- And you know what's funny? Outlier means exactly what it proposes:Something out of the line. Where would that be discarded? Since the etymology of the word does not refer none of this (Unless the site describes it like this, but that would be the site's fault, not the etymology). About Mogul stealing Chaos Knuckles' power, I've answered that in the first text. What happens is that you say that the feat is problematic based on NFL(which it isn't) and inconsistency. Well, about this, this is just guesswork, if you think that this feat was attributed by Ian Flynn indirectly is a personal opinion of you that does not compact in anything here. And just because the "conceptual manipulation" doesn't correct? What's so hard to understand that he only altered the source of energy (Chaos Energy)? What's the Chaos Force? It's a plane beyond the physical and spiritual realms that unifies the whole Multiverse and it's the source of all the chaotic energy in existence. What did Super Sonic do? Altered the Force with the SGW in a way that the source of Chaos Energy isn't considered like the Chaos Force, a plane beyond everything and everyone that unifies everything and everyone, but like something distinguished, not only this but the emeralds also were expressed in a linguistically different way. He didn't altered the Chaos Energy the Plane, and the assignment of the plane and how the Chaos Energy is treated.

 

[Dark_Matter557]

The first point is right, but not the second.

2.Wanna walk in circles again? Because i already proved why Enerjak and others=Chaos Force. Since the Ancient Walkers, Neo Walkers e Enerjak are one with the Force, this means that they incorporate the force, and are not just parts of it. You said yourself that "Taking a place in the chaos force" and "Becoming one with the Chaos Force" are used as interchangeable terms

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Actually Mogul's plan was to mind hax the Triple Threat,but they had 50 rings,one shows that it can break Mind Hax,Knuckles also shows resistance to Mind Control from Dimitri with Chaos Energy in Super Special #7 & he's not even in a Super State then. The Only reason Enerjak takes over Knuckles is because of Finitevus' Hex,which is something entirely different.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

To be fair, Ian Flynn has effectively retconned the very idea of an "entirety" of Chaos Energy,Infinite is Infinite & it loses meaning after 7 emeralds,mastery is the only thing that matters at that point & Mogul's 2ND form is no more mastered than his 1ST. However there are some things that can be interpreted differently,like more Chaos Energy,more power,but than you have to factor in the Great Harmony for scaling.

 

[Foneybone1]

His plan was to mind hax them, but unless I missed a panel or something, he never actually attempts it once they return to fight him. Are you supporting my side with the rest of your comment? This almost seems like an anti-feat compared to what ShadowWarrior said.

Is there a source on Flynn retconning power becoming irrelevant after 7 Chaos Emeralds? Because WOG or not, that contradicts A LOT of what we're shown. If it's taken from the ∞+∞=∞ quote (l haven't seen the full quote so I wouldn't know) it doesn't even really make sense at all because it implies 1 emerald is equal to 7 since it's all infinity, which is directly contradicted in Flynn's own writing.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Flynn does state that Mogul is far better versed in Chaotic mastery than the triple threat,but IMO not to such an extreme degree that they're infinitely below him. Super States when younger,inexperienced, & before they even know Chaos Control are at least Walker level since they battled a Master Mogul with full power & didn't get mortally wounded.He seriously harms the Walkers with the dying embers of his power & they're embodying a higher dimension than Space-Time of infinite universes.Super States are at least infinite 4-D(or 5-D,but not on this wikia).I do think think this scaling is fair,but it can be contested.

 

[Foneybone1]

I feel like I'm getting worse at this not taking three days to respond thing.

Not to impose my own view onto what he said, but it's more likely he means in a general sense (like how power levels were dropped in Dragon Ball) than literal. Logically, it doesn't make sense for power to increase with each Chaos Emerald but cap at 7 for no reason. The issue 56 fight is also a lousy example for him to use since Mogul's power is primarily what formed the Master Emerald, which is stronger than the Chaos Emeralds, meaning, experience or not, he had more power than Sonic and Co.

Flynn's own writing doesn't even support this interpretation. Enerjak being drained of power shouldn't matter since his experience is the same but Super Sonic is able to fight him despite future/more experiencedSonic failing.

Putting aside that the comic directly contradicts the idea that only experience matters past a point. If the power of every super form and chaos entity becomes a matter of experience, then the scaling between characters become impossibly arbitrary. This fight, for example, is Enerjak more experienced than Mogul? What's our basis for that? The walkers needed Aurora's help to defeat him, but Mogul was able to mortally wound them, at best you could argue this fight being inconclusive.

Not to mention, taking power out of the equation doesn't really fix anything, it only creates problems. What's the difference between Chaos Knuckles and Hyper Knuckles? If their power is the same, why couldn't he control one of them? What even are Ultra Sonic and Hyper Tails? There's the whole Enerjak debacle I mentioned and Sonic somehow being more experienced than every other being in existence despite not having centuries of...experience. And what do we do with statements of power that go against experience like Tails, Knuckles, Mogul, and so on? Or that Mogul is stated to be less experienced than the walkers yet is able to kill them?

Additionally, if Flynn's ridiculous retcon of power beyond 7 emeralds is accepted, then him retconning the walker's death to being when Mogul stole Knuckles' power instead of when he was freed from the Master Emerald must also be accepted. (not that that matters since according to this scale, the power is the same)

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

I absolutely understand where you're coming from,everything gets wonky because of different writers,for instance Flynn completely retconned Issac's observation that the Gene Bomb created the Green Chaos Emeralds.Gallager wrote with toon force in mind,Penders & Bollers Wrote with More Emeralds=more power in mind, & Chacon only wrote 5 issues in the entire run & is the one who wrote "The Chosen One" arc. I think thats where the contradictions come from ultimately. I guess this is an example of Word Of God vs Death of The Author.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

One thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is that only 14 Emeralds,a Chaos Syphon,Locke & Sabre resulted in the creation of the Master Emerald,yet countless Emeralds guided by Turbo Tails & Super Shadow then Forged by Feist is somehow less impressive. It makes no sense.

 

[Foneybone1]

I agree with the post harmony emeralds thing. It would have been so easy to have explained it too. Something as simple as Feist using up a majority of the emerald's power to stabilize the zone or him absorbing a lot of the energy so he'd still be nigh omnipotent even if all 7 emeralds were taken. As is, they're weirdly made of more pre-emeralds than the Master Emerald but still weaker than it.

 

[Genericstickman]

So grace has been over for awhile so can this be added?

 

[Foneybone1]

I mean, I questioned the reasons for Enerjak's victory everyone voted for, but Ed and I more talked around that. The comparison ShadowWarrior made is invalid since Hyper Knuckles resisting Mogul's mindhax didn't happen, and Dark Enerjak defeating Super Sonic is irrelevant since Mogul was beating Hyper Knuckles and Super Sonic.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Hard to say,Mogul was knocking them around but he didn't beat them into complete submission the way Dark Enerjak apparently did, then again we don't even know what happened in that battle as it happens off panel. Other Than that,Foneybone has given me alot to ponder,I guess I vote inconclusive.

 

[Awsometime]

Mogul due to the fact that a weakened MM1 was able to mortally wound the ancient walkers. True enerjak could not do this and the ancient walkers are so far above Chaos Knuckles that he can't even comprehend their existence, as stated by Aurora. Mogul's feat is simply far more impressive. Enerjak 1 rivaled them, mogul flat out surpassed them while fatigued in his first tenure.

 

[Awsometime]

I mean, I questioned the reasons for Enerjak's victory everyone voted for, but Ed and I more talked around that. The comparison ShadowWarrior made is invalid since Hyper Knuckles resisting Mogul's mindhax didn't happen, and Dark Enerjak defeating Super Sonic is irrelevant since Mogul was beating Hyper Knuckles and Super Sonic.

Really doesn't make much sense to me either. Turbo Tails was stated to have far surpassed super sonic and hyper knuckles. Mammoth Mogul was vastly above turbo tails at his peak. Beating super sonic means nothing in DE's favor and I've already proven above that his ancient walker feat was more impressive than enerjak's

 

[Genericstickman]

Grace has been over for awhile now, I should probably get this requested to be added

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

@Awsometime

If the Ancient Walkers were mortally wounded by weakend first tenure,than the Triple Threat is on a higher level since they battled MM when he was at full power without even being beat into submission. I've already given most of my reasons why alot of the scaling can be interpreted differently & your scaling chain is no exception.

 

[Foneybone1]

The triple threat being above the Ancient Walkers, I think, is an unintended inconsistency. Not to say the scaling doesn't work on paper because it does, but the lore definitely implies that's not the case. There's also Ian Flynn changing Mogul's feat to taking place after absorbing Chaos Knuckles' power in the encyclopedia, which makes much more sense in universe.

 

[Awsometime]

Yeah I'm aware of that retcon, that's why the feat makes more sense. I made a CRT on Mogul and his relatives being upgraded last week but so far no one's reviewed it. Mogul, the Walkers, and Titan Tails should all be 5D.

 

[Awsometime]

@Awsometime
If the Ancient Walkers were mortally wounded by weakend first tenure,than the Triple Threat is on a higher level since they battled MM when he was at full power without even being beat into submission. I've already given most of my reasons why alot of the scaling can be interpreted differently & your scaling chain is no exception.

Not really much of a chain. Enerjak 1 lost to the Ancient Walkers and is never said to have inflicted any lasting damage, Mogul mortally wounded them. Both these feats are totally backed up by the encyclopedia as well. I'm not really "chaining" anything here, Mogul's feat is just blatantly more impressive unless you can prove otherwise.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

That's why I said INTERPRETED.The Encyclopedia is one way of looking at it,the events are another,if you're going down the WOG route than you must accept that Flynn retconned all levels at & past 7 emeralds as the same infinity.Mogul's 1st & 2nd tenures are literally the same level as he gained no significant mastery between the two transformations, so him being supposedly superior to Enerjak is irrelevant by this logic.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Aurora-La+Ancient Walkers "scattered" Enerjak,he was too powerful to be destroyed outright.