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MCU - Masters of Mystic Arts magic AP

Graf_Thorsdottir

Graf_Thorsdottir

2,417
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I have several problems with the justifications for the AP of the Masters of Mystic Arts (MoMA) with magic. Let's go through them one by one

Strange: Doesn't consider Ultron a threat

=> After Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War, we know how MoMA deal with these kinds of threats: throwing them into portals (Loki and Cull Obsidian). They have nothing to do with AP. Neither do the durability-ignoring portal cutting. One statement that they don't consider Ultron a threat without going into details how they would defeat him, and the usual ways they deal with such threats (portals) cannot automatically translate into them having higher AP via magic than Ultron.

Wong: Harmed Ebony Maw in Combat, aided Iron Man and should be comparable to Pre-Key Doctor Strange

=> Harming Maw who has Wall level durability is meaningless. Wong also hurt Maw by sending his own spikes at him by portal. He also did not "aid" Tony, merely sending Cull into a portal before he could attack Tony again. I already addressed the problem with Stephen.

Kaecilus: Fought against the witch that covered London in a storm alongside Wong, Master Minoru, and Daniel Drumm, providing 1/4th of the power needed to overpower her

=> Are we even certain the witch covered London in a storm? In this page she mentioned "Darkness" and the next page implied she covered the area in darkness. Later in this page the MoMA discussed that the relic she held Feeds of the physical light and pulls all light from within while also amplifying doubt and fear. Wong, Kaecilius, Daniel and Minoru later defeated her by releasing so much light magic that the relic was pushed to its limit. So I don't know why we treated the power of the relic as anything remotely storm-related. The witch's feat is a non-quantifiable darkness hax feat and also an Environmental Destruction feat like the Mirror Dimension - the environment is altered, but does not translate into direct combat-applicable AP.

TL;DR:

  • Strange's scaling from Ultron assumes Strange's magic AP > Ultron, based on a single statement of him not seeing the robot as a threat, without taking into account the way MoMA deal with similar threats - non-quantifiable portals.
  • Wong has a lot of faulty justifications with scaling from people that don't matter (Maw) or people he shouldn't scale from at all (Tony)
  • Kaecilius/ The Witch: The feat of covering London in darkness was assumed to be a storm for no reason at all. The feat itself is more or less a "Covering an area in darkness" feat that would not be quantifiable
 
>Non-quantifiable hax environmental destruction

Oh boy, one of those.

No, her feat 100% scales to her other magic, that much is certain. We actually see clouds of darkness cover the sky and thus we can quantify it.

And it's not a single statement, Strange and other Masters' magic makes them superior to the likes of the Avengers, that much is a consistent idea throughout the MCU. Just the fact that he threw Loki into a portal in a joke scene doesn't mean he'd deal with every single threat like that.
 
I have not read the comic, so I am not sure if it is a storm feat or not.

I am not sure how you decide whether the sorcerers are "consistently" stronger than the Avengers though. And it's not just Loki in a joke scene, Wong did it to Cull Obsidian in Infinity War too. There is no evidence saying that the sorcerers are superior to the Avengers in terms of AP.
 
Is not a single statement, IIRC, in SD's movie is said that the Avengers are nothing compared to the MoMA and they fight threats far more powerful.

I also agree with Matt that Portals are not always the way to fight different threats, and honestly, say that the MoMA think of themselves to be superior because of just that technique is sorta dumb, there has to be more reasons for them to think that Ultron and friends are not human-wipers.
 
They fight threats far more powerful because they have far more powerful magic.

Portals are not the only way to fight threats, but portals are also not the only way that is not quantifiable by AP. There isn't any evidence that sorcerers can defeat Ultron via AP.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No, her feat 100% scales to her other magic, that much is certain. We actually see clouds of darkness cover the sky and thus we can quantify it.
Click to expand...
And it's fair to assume that the cloud of darkness is made out of water?

Or that the artifact scales to her magic to begin with?
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
They fight threats far more powerful because they have far more powerful magic.
Portals are not the only way to fight threats, but portals are also not the only way that is not quantifiable by AP. There isn't any evidence that sorcerers can defeat Ultron via AP.
Click to expand...
Yes, and that is were their AP came from.

I know that they have more options, but what Graf is implying is that "They only defeat them because of portals", which is not complete true.
 
I guess I should've worded my first point better.

Yes, portals are not the only option to defeat an enemy. But a statement of not considering Ultron a threat, without any details about how such a confrontation would end up, does not automatically mean their magic AP > Ultron's AP. The MoMA demonstrated that their magic is more hax than AP in nature throughout the movies they have been in. Mirror Dimension, Transmutation, Portals, Spatial Warping or Astral combat are not quantifiable. The only thing I remotely remember that can be quantifiable for AP before IW is the zealots' transparent blades, that do not scale to any other MCU characters. Wong also said the MoMA deal with mystical threats while the Avengers deal with the physical kind. Their opponents being of different natures do not mean a tier jump.

Also, I still strongly disagree with treating the witch's feat as a storm like Thor's, just because she summoned what LOOKED to be a swirling mass of black. We have to take into account the MoMA's analysis of the power of the relic as well, instead of simply drawing an assumption from visuals that are not always crystal-clear. If the MoMA analysed the relic's power to be darkness-based, why do we treat the mass of darkness as a storm? They are 2 different things with different properties.
 
I can see wind (or a tornado) coming out of the staff to make the darkness but that's maybe because the art style is pretty terrible. I mean sure styles important but when the reader can't tell if it's a cloud or a city consuming darkness that's when you go back to the drawing board.

  • My god auto correct sucks
 
Their magic is anything but unknown, the idea that Doctor Strange has no AP whatsoever is laughable if you look at either his own movie or Infinity War where he matches Thanos AP wise. There's no reason to downgrade him to unknown.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Is it even said that it is a cloud tho
Click to expand...
If it looks like a duck, moves like a duck and quacks like a duck, what is it?

Also, it is literally gaseous matter in the sky that blocks the light of the sun. It's not unquantifiable incorporeal magic.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
If it looks like a duck, moves like a duck and quacks like a duck, what is it?
Click to expand...
Except the MoMA analysed that duck to be something else entirely? That analogy doesn't work when the only similarity it has with cloud is that it is a swirling mass of black.

IW Stephen is another can of worms entirely that would only apply to his IW key and probs Ancient One anyway. We're talking about your standard MoMA
 
They literally don't define anything about the darkness' other than that it absorbs light and feeds on fear. They don't debunk my claim at all, it's a false equivalency to act like it can't have those properties as well.
 
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This is as far as I can tell (though the art style is vague as hell) is a tornado. That would indicate that this is a cloud.
 
A43B9970-5D1E-48CD-B136-D1D6079EBC23
A more detailed reason I find it to be a tornado is because as shown with the blue circle it is 3D and reflects light, and with the red circles it has twirls in it that indicates it's spinning.
  • Edit Fixed
 
A swirling mass of black does not automatically equal a storm forming. And I still don't know how you associate a relic constantly referred to as having darkness-based power to storms. At all. You can't just say "It LOOKS gaseous and swirly, so it must be a storm." You can see in the panel just before your so-called storm that it is not a storm at all. She casts a spell and darkness starts to gather. The first panel of the very next page strongly implied the gathering darkness covered the area, rendering it completely dark before she teleported away. This page shows absolutely no hints of storming.

@Keeweed

What exactly indicates spinning here? A few pixels?
 
And even if, how in the hell do you assume that it's made out of some mass, let alone water? Because that is a must for the calc to work.
 
Graf does have some good points. What do you think Matthew? Perhaps we have made a mistake.
 
It is clearly a cloud, it's solid, it's gaseous, it made a tornado and it covered the skies. The whole argument here seems to revolve primarily on semantics, like claiming that because something wasn't specifically stated, it can't be it.

Not to mention the environental destruction fallacy being applied to both it and the Mirror Dimension feats.
 
"like claiming that because something wasn't specifically stated"

This is verbatum the oposite. We are claiming it is what they are claimed to be, darkness. Assuming that it is the same as water seems fallacious at best, and it forming a tornadoe does everything but help that idea.

Also, again, why does the artifacy scale?
 
And also, what about those obvious gaps in-between the "clouds"?

Also, the reason she got beaten was that she couldn't wield it properly and it failed to contain the energy pushed into it. How does that translate to their power being equal to it when they define it as too powerful to be used?
 
Here's the article for not considering Ultron a threat thing. They actually do state this in Infinity War, as Tony Stark questions Strange about his lack of help, so the latter replies that he's been protecting Earth from threats to reality.

"There are people inhabiting the same world that are stopping buildings from falling down, robots from doing this, aliens from doing that ― these people in this movie are stopping inter-dimensional forces from wiping out all of reality.

So although it doesn't necessarily come up, we've always assumed that the sorcerers have bigger fish to fry when they hear there's something in a city or there's a bank being robbed. They're not thinking about it. They're thinking if we don't keep vigilant our sense of reality will disappear, and there won't be a bank to rob and there won't be a city to be conquered.

I don't think he does a lot of hanging out, necessarily. No, he usually gets involved when ― as I said, he's not going to intervene in the bodega crime down the street. But as things get bigger and as threats get bigger he can serve a very good purpose and can make his presence known."

Also, it's fairly erroneous to assume that they just use hax, as there's also things like durability, and it's not like they just constantly use portals in fights, those are shown to require incantations that someone as fast as Ultron can intercept.

Edit: I didn't see this was from 8 days ago.
 
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