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Zelda: Massive Revisions

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@Dust

I find the feat itself a vague, but don't really have too strong of an opinion for or against it, right now. Other people can decide on that.
 
@Dust

I think we need a new translation for that. People argued in the last thread that the translation wasn't right and that Demise still states that he created it. Someone should ask Sera about that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I still want to hear Cal's input; though, he's admittedly bean through a lot with other Zelda revision threads, and I too have been rather tired of them.
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Does that mean I can't post the 4-A upgrade? I've already finished writing it ovo
 
TriforcePower1 said:
@Dust
I think we need a new translation for that. People argued in the last thread that the translation wasn't right and that Demise still states that he created it. Someone should ask Sera about that.
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I see. In that case then yeah we need to confirm if that translation is wrong or not.
 
TheNekrozOfMokey said:
I should ask here, people here seem to agree that the moon was created by the mask but what is the evidence for that? I don't recall, best I could find immediately would be claims that the mask created Termina. If that is the reason why, I'm not sure why the rating isn't higher exactly because iirc Termina is a parallel universe and contains stars and stuff. Idk if I outright support that idea though.
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I asked this before and idk if the answer is obvious, but it wasnt necessarily answered.
 
Majora can outright control the moon, and once he goes inside of it he re-activates it after the giants stop it making it go down stronger. Adding on to his defeat makes the moon dissapeaar.
 
Between this and the Low 2-C and 3-A Triforce threads I don't wanna see another large scale Zelda revision thread for a while lol.

I don't think High 4-C Majora and Triforce is going anywhere from the majority opinion, Demise is still uncertain since there's apparently conflicting translations about the orignal japanese text. The High 5-A feat also needs discussion since some people think it's completely legit, others don't, and others don't know what to think of it.
 
I have some qualms with it I think

Using a song from another game that is a massive time skip as evidence for it not being time manipulation is eh

Apparently there are ingame quotes suggesting it is time manipulation

Makes sense since you cannot use the Song of Passing at all when it happens

Other than that idk
 
Does the translation even matter? Doesn't Demise control that entire dimension anyway?

Like, didn't he change the sky with a wave of his hand?
 
He made a massive storm in the sky while in there and I think Fi makes a comment about the place being under the magical influence of Demise. The former doesnt mean much but the Fi comment could be a good indication of Demises control over the dimension.
 
Dust Collector said:
He made a massive storm in the sky while in there and I think Fi makes a comment about the place being under the magical influence of Demise. The former doesnt mean much but the Fi comment could be a good indication of Demises control over the dimension.
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Which proves further that he might have created it
 
So I actually looked at the translation link, I don't get what the OP is trying to imply. Why should we suddenly listen to the new translator instead of the NoA translation? Nothing in that link even mentions that Demise creating it was outright wrong:

"The final battle with Demise takes place in Demise's "mazoku no yo", which means "Demon Tribe's World". From what I understand and Yamikawa's interpretation, this seems to pretty much be a "more complete" way of saying "makai".

The "Demon Tribe" part of the curse was left out in the NoA translation. I could be wrong, but it seems like part of the curse is that not only will Demise's hatred haunt those with the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero, but so will the Demon Tribe (mazoku). It's like saying that the Demon Tribe has declared eternal war on the Gods' Tribe."
 
SansTheSkeleton101 wrote It's like saying that the Demon Tribe has declared eternal war on the Gods' Tribe."

That sounds ******* cool and it makes the sheika's wayyyy cooler since they are thw guardians of the God's tribe and every other main antagonist link fight's are either influenced or are parr of the Demon tribe o_O
 
SansTheSkeleton101 said:
Why should we suddenly listen to the new translator instead of the NoA translation?
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Because a lot of the NoA translations are trash. We've stopped using their translations ages ago.
 
Dust Collector said:
Because a lot of the NoA translations are trash. We've stopped using their translations ages ago.
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Has there been anything speficially shown with this NoA translation to denounce it? Arguing because other translations were bad therefore this one is sonuds like a huge association fallacy.
 
May as well bump this since the Demise and High 5-A stuff haven't been truly resolved yet. Plus apparently BOTW Link is still 5-A for a feat that never happened (Calamity Ganon moving the moon despite the game itself making it very clear he only becomes more powerful during a blood moon rather than causing it).

I also want to add something else to the High 5-A "feat". We're assuming that Ganon rotates the planet only when someone gets close to his fortress and then for no reason rotates it back when they leave and his stopping of the planet's rotation for the endless night only ended because he decided to leave the planet alone when Link got the third pearl. All of this because of a statement made in a game released several years before Wind Waker and assuming the series is being 100% consistent to make a massive assumption of planet rotation.
 
No, about the 5-A feat, a character refers to the fact that that the blood moons started to appear only 100 years prior to the start of the game, AKA when the Calamity first attacked. It's the same NPC that tells which nights a blood moon appears iirc.

I may not remember very well, but Link obtaining the third pearl broke Ganon's curse or something. And while Zelda isn't always 100% consistent, we can't use said excuse to reject feats.
 
I'm not saying that being inconsistent is the sole reason to reject feats, but when we're trying to use a single statement to justify a large assumption that isn't backed up in the game whatsoever and letting a older game take precedence then we have problems. The pearl breaking the curse also points towards this not being a legit planet stopping feat, this is just some magic spell that makes eternal night as a result of a curse that can be broken.

For the blood moon stuff it's way too contradictory with itself to make a definitive conclusion. Zelda says that whenever a blood moon happens it increases Ganons power, and then that Hino dude says the blood moon has only been happening for 100 years which implies he's the one causing it, so we end up with a scenario where Ganon somehow uses his power to cause an event to happen that only increases his power for a set amount of time. We often go with the highest possible interpretation for Zelda feats with frankly flimsy reasoning to back it up.
 
Dust Collector said:
We often go with the highest possible interpretation for Zelda feats with frankly flimsy reasoning to back it up.
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I agree with this. Or at least they try to use the highest possible interpretation for upgrades.

Like the recent "Ganon has the power to destroy Hyrule = Ganon can bust the country whenever he feels like it".
 
@Dust

I'm just letting Cal handle the WW stuff as he has proved to be better than me in that regard.

About BOTW, Zelda only references that the hour of the blood is also the time when Ganon's power rises. Nothing in the entire game references that the blood moon enhances his power, just that it happens at the same time. And even disregarding all that, what do you think it'd be? That the moon just so happens to move at 5-A energy and become red completely at random?

I agree with this. Or at least they try to use the highest possible interpretation for upgrades.

Like the recent "Ganon has the power to destroy Hyrule = Ganon can bust the country whenever he feels like it".

Because we absolutely don't do that with any other verse. And as I said, I was neutral and just wondering if it could be used to upgrade him. Once you disagreed, I just closed the thread without arguing. If we truly did that, the TF would have been 3-A a lot of time ago, mid-tiers would be 4-A, the TF would have a ton more hax etc. Choosing a high interpretation = Going with the highest possible interpretatio. Especially when it's the most probable, or sometimes even the only, possibility.
 
The BOTW stuff just needs better clarification, Ganon moving it isn't a stretch but as it stands our current justification for it is "He moved the moon don't question it". Something like "Its been said the blood moon has only been happening since Calamity Ganons return, so it's likely his doing" would be much better. I'm fine with 5-A, but we need more discussion about it as to how we should handle and what interpretion to go with since there's a lot of disagreements with how we're meant to treat this.
 
Dust Collector said:
I'm not saying that being inconsistent is the sole reason to reject feats, but when we're trying to use a single statement to justify a large assumption that isn't backed up in the game whatsoever and letting a older game take precedence then we have problems. The pearl breaking the curse also points towards this not being a legit planet stopping feat, this is just some magic spell that makes eternal night as a result of a curse that can be broken.
Click to expand...


I think there is a misunderstanding going on. I presume the statement you are refering to is the Composer Brothers sun song, right? I think I was the one who brought it up in the last thread.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1949363

The Composer Brothers statement certainly wasn't the main arguement here. Ganon has never shown time manipulation nor was there ever proof that Ganon has had ever time related abilities. This little statement about Ganon trying to steal the sun song serves as a little support as of why Ganon using time manipulation to do the Forsaken Fortress feat is implausible and should be ruled out. Even without this statement, there would be no proof that Ganon did it via time manip.. Darkness Manipulation was also out of the question for Cal's reason.(sun and moon are visibly moving).

So the only options left are straight up TK(which I disagree with btw.) or an automatic curse set by Ganon (supported by Red Lion statement) since both are powers that have been displayed by him before.

Also I disagree with the pearl breaking the curse indicating anything. A curse has so many varieties, really, death curse, darkness curse, destruction curse ect....

Also i told myself to leave this wiki but here I am arguing again, arggggh.
 
Dust Collector said:
Between this and the Low 2-C and 3-A Triforce threads I don't wanna see another large scale Zelda revision thread for a while lol.
I don't think High 4-C Majora and Triforce is going anywhere from the majority opinion, Demise is still uncertain since there's apparently conflicting translations about the orignal japanese text. The High 5-A feat also needs discussion since some people think it's completely legit, others don't, and others don't know what to think of it.
Click to expand...
what is the uhhh

low 2-C stuff
 
The translation you linked still outright calls that place "Demise's Demon World" according to the translator(and this is assuming that translator in question is just suddenly more reliable the NoA translator).
 
@Zephyros The Low 2-C stuff was about an attempt made to upgrade the Triforce to Low 2-C a while back that was rejected due to the evidence not being convincing.
 
SansTheSkeleton101 said:
The translation you linked still outright calls that place "Demise's Demon World" according to the translator(and this is assuming that translator in question is just suddenly more reliable the NoA translator).
Click to expand...
It actually calls it the demon tribes world which 1. Implies he didn't make it/it isn't his and 2. According to my (limited)knowledge of Japanese is more accurate than the other one
 
after looking through the thread I can't find a reason for why everyone assumes the things floating in demise's realm and the moon in majora's mask are considered stars.

I remember people talking about the color of the two "stars" in question and relating them back to our own sun, but I see no reason why this would be the case. Just because the object in question produces white light doesn't necessarily make it a star. While it's been well over a year since i've done anything more complicated then basic algebra, but allow this amature astronomer to bore you with some dumb science stuff.

I assume that when people are talking about the color of the star in majora's mask and skyward sword they are talking about the Apparent Magnitude of these two objects, except this is very inaccurate as for a number of reasons, one being your using the human eye a very imprecise measuring tool, another being that your using your(link's) current locations which leads to a wide variety of results depending on where someone is positioned, also this only really works at night.

If you want to find out the actual color of the star your would need to find the color of the wave lengths the star produces on the electro magnetic specturm then figure out the black body radiation as a function of wavelength using after that you would use Wien's Law to find the temperature of the star. Finally you would take the temperature found using Wein's law and place it on the Hertzsprung―Russell diagram to find the size of the star. Our own sun is a type G star with a temperature of 5,800K.

I made a mentioned earlier about the electromagnetic specturm, using the color of the star in question you could use Absolute Magnitude to calculate the luminosity of a star assuming it was 32.6 light years(10 parces) away from you and then use the stellar luminosity calculator to find the size.

Once you find one piece of information about a star someone can pretty reliably math out the rest. Just one problem though, I have no idea how you would find any information about either object in majora's mask or skyward sword and I know someone is going to say something like of course Eiji Aonuma and Tayaka Imamura wanted them to be stars I just don't feel comfortable calling something a star when for all I know it could just be a giant lightbulb.
 
Why wouldn't it be a star?

If something looks like something (in this case, a star) and acts in the same manner as something, do you immediately assume that it isn't that something?
 
other that producing light we have no idea if this is anything like a star as I pointed out in the second part of my previous post
 
Desmond253 said:
other that producing light we have no idea if this is anything like a star as I pointed out in the second part of my previous post
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Other than produce light and heat, what does a star do from that far away in the sky?

Why would you assume it isn't a star? It produces light and is far off into the distant sky like a star, following Occam's Razor, we should assume that it is a star.
 
Once you find one piece of information about a star someone can pretty reliably math out the rest. Just one problem though, I have no idea how you would find any information about either object in majora's mask or skyward sword and I know someone is going to say something like of course Eiji Aonuma and Tayaka Imamura wanted them to be stars I just don't feel comfortable calling something a star when for all I know it could just be a giant lightbulb.

you clearly didn't read my post
 
I just wanna know why we're just assuming that Majora and Demise decided to randomly create light bulbs in the sky that produce both heat and light and have it far away enough in the sky so that it's shimmering. Like, I wonder what the thought process was for this. "K so I'm gonna make this shiny light that looks like a star but it's gonna not be a star, it's just gonna be light and heat produced".
 
Desmond253 said:
Once you find one piece of information about a star someone can pretty reliably math out the rest. Just one problem though, I have no idea how you would find any information about either object in majora's mask or skyward sword and I know someone is going to say something like of course Eiji Aonuma and Tayaka Imamura wanted them to be stars I just don't feel comfortable calling something a star when for all I know it could just be a giant lightbulb.
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you clearly didn't read my post
I did read your post...it was nonsensical.

All I'm trying to do is understand your logic.

WHY would it be a giant light bulb? There is nothing that would indicate that as something that can be assumed when in the context of the scene.

I'm questioning your reasoning for your judgment that the light in the sky that looks and acts like a sun is apparently not a sun.

Your post isn't based on reason or logic. And like I said earlier, following Occam's Razor, we should assume that it is a star.

Did you read my post, or did you assume since I'm disagreeing with you that I didn't read yours?
 
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