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DBX/DBH timelines

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SSJRyu1

SSJRyu1

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So there is a new statement about DBX/DBH having infinite timelines that was unnoticed for the most part in the DLC 6 "Inifnte history" pack.

https://imgur.com/a/sDItIO6

They are specifically refering to past tense here, and not future tense or things that do not exist yet, or are just possibiliites, which I beleive is what a few people had issue with before in previous possible upgrade threads. It says history is made up of these deviations, as in already is, and that said history is certainly not finite being very specific. Since history is written already by definition, and is consistently portratyed as such in the game, with the whole goal being protecting the existing "history" or timelines, then logically you can't claim they are refering to not yet existant events when they refer to history. Therefore if they say history is not finite, then it means existing deviations or timelines are not finite.

I beleive this is very solid proof for the multiverse having non finite, or infinite timelines already written as history just as stated directly here.

Now what does this mean? Well becouse there are infinte timelines already existing in history, as Fu stated, this means the 2-B status of the DBX/DBH characters should be upgraded to 2-A based on this. Pretty straight forward really.

  • Note, this is something that is important and I have asked several people to comment, including bureaucrats and admins, so kindly do not close the thread until it is resolved fully. And I know for a fact that several staff, and many regulars agree with the upgrade already from talking to them to.


Edit: So I figure it best to show some other supporting evidence for infinte timelines in the games. Although this alone imo proves it there is even more to point to it.

It is confirmed that there are "Endless worlds" or timelines by Cell in Shin Budokai, which like the other games is present in Heroes. Endless means no end, or infinite quite literally. Alone one may dismiss it and low ball to say it isn't literal, but we have actual statements of the multiverses history being stated directly as non finite. above to back up the literal interpritation.

https://imgur.com/J9flgps

Also the DLC itself is literally called "infinite history" further showign the importance of the quote.

https://imgur.com/a/3PBwkZ7

Also for it's expansion it is stated that many timelines are created from the smallest of changed events in the manga. Basically ALL POSSIBLE infintie outcomes are created at once. Not just one possible alternate one.

https://imgur.com/a/0FNKN

So we have infinte deviations or timelines which exist as history according to Fu, in a ever expanding multiverse.
 
This single scan, which has been used in the previous attempts at upgrading the Xenoverse Multiverse, has been analyzed and rejected. What we have here is a typical case of taking a statement far too literally, or without any real analysis of context and meaning.

In here the character says that "History isn't linear, and it's certainly not finite". One could, perhaps - If they already seek that end conclusion, that is - interpret this as infinity history thus infinite timelines thus Multiversal+ Dragon Ball confirmed!

But that's the thing, not only does that interpretation take leaps of logic and blatant favoritism, it is ignoring basic reading comprehension. History in this case doesn't refer just to the past. Even to suggest that is hilarious, seeing as the character outright says it isn't linear. It is talking about history, the passage of events, as a whole. In the past that's happened already, in the present which is ocorring right now, and the future the present is leading to.

Furthermore, the term "Not finite" in this case doesn't mean that there is a countably infinite number of universes. Specially since that's not how the multiverse works in Xenoverse. It just means that the number of universes isn't set, like say, 12. It is a constantly expanding, ever-branching number based on time travel and decisions. It is not concrete, nor set, not definable. Thus it isn't finite. There will never be a set end.

Metaphorically speaking, imagine that you are walking down an infinite road, and drawing a line on the ground with a paintbrush that never goes dry. You will never reach the end of that road. You'll never get any closer to reaching the end, but your line will just keep growing and growing until it basically immeasurable. It's not a finite drawn line, specially as it is being drawn eternally as you keep walking... But it's not infinite

And neither is the DB Multiverse. Can we please stop using this scan now?

By the way? All of what I just said is if he is talked about multiple timelines. This same line could be referring to just one. It's purely a philosophical statement that gives us no concrete or valid information about the cosmology.
 
History by definition refers to only past events. You need to give actual specific proof they are also refering to future events not yet written since that contradicts the very meaning of the word being used to include unwritten events in "history".

When they refer to said past events as non linear, it refers to how there are infinite deviations that make up the timelines included in the past that make up history. As in you cannot simply follow one linear chain of events, it is made up of infite paths in the past.

Not finte is infinite by definition. You assume that it includes unwritten events when it directly contradicts your assumption by saying "history" is not finite, and history refers to all past events that are written, not unwritten ones. Burden of proof is on you to show that unwritten events are history.

Simply becouse a multiverse is ever expanding does not make it finite by default, lots of expanding multiverses are also infinte, logical fallacy, so not disproving the argument.

I understand the metaphor, but this is innacurate for the situation. In this case Fu is saying you are draging your paint brush forever forward, but the line you drew is already stretching back infinitly. He was very specific in saying "history" is not finite, not the future, or possibilities, the written past of the multiverse.

In fact your whole goal is to protect all of history from changing. It is all portrayed as an existing construct, not a hypothetical future.

So I can't agree with you here since your assuming history includes unwritten events, which is directly contradictory to the way its portrayed in the game, and it's literal definition.

And yes, history in DBX/DBH refers to all timelines/ages, in fact this comes from a story arc where Fu is absorbing energy from alternate timelines.
 
  • Anyhow, it is about 2 AM here so im going to sleep now. I'll check back tommorow to see some more input on the topic and respond to anything that needs to be responded to.
 
well tbh this is straight forward in how it works. Fu said history isn't finite so it COULD suggest infinite but the thing is in what way. But the next line in that scan said countless which could mean like the ones before just uncountable but not confirmed infinite and such. Tbh i don't care either way but i feel like while it could be infinite due to the first statement the second sentence sort of put us where it started being the word countless. Feel like possibly 2-A can work but idk neutral somewhat
 
History doesn't just refer to the past, I don't know what definition you are going but you are putting far, faaaaar to much emphasis on what is purely a poetical statement that shouldn't be taken literally.

Not Finite and Infinite are also not synonymous, I also explained that to you with an example. You can't just cling to dictionary definitions and ignore context.

Just because History has been used to refer to the Multiverse doesn't mean it is in this line, which is always presented without context or further explanation. It alone isn't sufficient as proof of anything.

Expanding Multiverse =/= Infinite Multiverse. It's basic math.
 
"History isn't linear. And it's certainly not infinite. It's formed from a vast network of countless events."

This is the type of poetic line someone could say in a philosophy / world history class presentation about the real world. It's not meant to be taken literally.
 
Frankly, I'd love it if DBX reaches 2-A. I get to see people coming up with the most BS excuses to get how Goku beats Madoka or Time Devourer or Bill or Enerjak.

It's nearly 2 AM, don't feel like dealing with DB, and I've been stagnated with upgrades for the longest so seeing a verse I don't like do this song and dance while I can't sven dream of attempting this and... yeah I'm a bit spiteful ovo jk.
 
But in all seriousness, I'm not taking a stand on this. Do what you guys want. I've done my fair share of showing bias in the past 24 hour timespan.
 
@Matt

History

"The study of past events, particularly in human affairs."

"The whole series of past events connected with a particular person or thing."

"A continuous, typically chronological, record of important or public events or of a particular trend or institution."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/history

Quite literally every definition of history refers to it being of strictly the past and events that have occured.

No, the statement is very literal and specific, and calling it poetic language is not disproving it.


Infinite

"another term for non-finite"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/infinite

It literally can be defined as non finite.


The very fact it states "History isn't linear." alone shows it is not a single linear timeline, and "formed from a vast network of countless events" backs up it is not talkign about a single timeline to, (don't try to claim "countless" means it is not infinite since countless can also mean infinite and is a synonum) and the fact it is consistently used to refer to the multiverse further backs it up, and the fact the mission itself is about alternate timelines that fu is absorbing power from.


No dude. You can add to infinity to make it bigger.

http://eldar.mathstat.uoguelph.ca/dashlock/Outreach/Articles/InfPlusOne.html

Basic math.


It is very specific and technical actually. Just saying it is flowerly language is not disproving it. For the sake of a proper analysis, please dont try to claim poetic language or any variation on that to dismiss quotes.


Now im getting tired so I am actually going to bed now lol, but I will check on teh progeress of teh thread tommorw and rebuttle to what needs to be rebuttled to.
 
You can throw dictionary as many times as you want, but all you are doing is provide no context or proof related to the actual game and just argue based on literalism and semantics. The line isn't meant to be taken literally.
 
Prove it dude. You say its not literal, you need to prove it. It is perfectly specific on non finite history and not ambiguous at all like with saying countless or something like that.

Show that history includes unwritten futures, show that we can't take the line literal despite it being very specific and not contradicted ever, in fact substantiated by other games etc. if anything.

Sorry dude but burden of proof is on you since you are saying the scans are taken out of context, show the scans that say otherwise and completly change the context if thats the case.

Now im goign to sleep and will be on tommorow, and if you still wanna argue this please actually provide proof that it is not literal, that unwritten futures are history and that the scan is out of context by providing the context which changes the meaning.
 
I already addressed at length in multiple posts, you are the one who have to prove your assertion, don't invert the burden of proof on me. The phrase is blatanty poetic and not literal. History isn't just the past in this case.

This is so obvious it's painful to have to explain, and nothing really suggests more than one timeline in that scan alone beyond your word which I don't trust. If you really have arguments you should bring scans from the game that prove infinite universes, not go for a bizarre literal interpretation of a line that doesn't say there are infinite universes or timelines in the slightest.
 
SO your just going to not provide any proof that it is hyperbole like you calim, well i gave multiple supporting statements to back up my stance, and ignore the actual definitions of words in favor of your incorrect definition of them, all without any actual proof of your claims that history includes unwritten futures on top of it despite that never being said and contradicting the word itself.

I have nothing to hide, and frankly you don't need to trust me since ive proved everything I said, you just keep trying to avoid it as "flowery language". Here is the entire DLC 6 for you to scan through if you think it is out of context. Go ahead, they clearly are dealing with the multiverse and alternate timelines the entire time, and the statement is what is seems.

https://youtu.be/rR2ltx08Rhk?t=646

Anyway, you clearly aren't willing to actually make an analysis and are jsut trying to dismiss the quote as flowery language, so if thats your opinion I don;t need to hear it anymore, it's noted. I'll be interested in hearing what others have to say tomorrow.
 
I have provided proof, it's in my first post which I addressed, and also in the multiple threads which had this scan brought up. All of which were rejected.

I have argued my interpretation / analysis of the phrase, but you just insist on literalism that isn't supported by nothing, and using dictonary to debate. So the only one ignoring context is you.

Cool, seeing the line the dude is just talking about how traveling in time changed the future. It's talking about how history is always being changed by time travel and stuff like that. It's not saying that there's infinite timelines.
 
In proper context they are in an alternate timeline created by Fu it is not changing the main one, they are making new ones. Fu absorbs the timeline after btw. Like I said, im transparent, its all right there that they are dealing with alternate timelines and history refers to all the timelines, not just one.
 
Yes, they made a new one by changing the past. So what exactly is your point? They are talking about how time travel makes timelines.

The past being infinite is literally impossible unless you want to say that the universe existed forever. The future being infinite is also illogical unless you want to say universes in dragon ball won't experience entropy and the death of stars.

The multiverse's history being infinite? Again not possible as in DBX, universes are created through changes in the time brought about by time travel interference. Multiplication of finite numbers, even exponential, won't ever reach infinity.

There is literally no physical way that History can be infinite. Ergo, the quote is just what it is. Non-literal poetic talk.
 
History, in any interpretation outside of a logic-discarding one, cannot be infinite. If referring to a single universe's history, it can't be infinite. A universe has a start and an end unless the stars can be re-ignited and space-time doesn't collapse. Even if history refers to progression, it wouldn't be infinite.

Similarly, even if you had exponential growth of universes via a change in the universe, even a single particle moving a single Planck length qualifying as a change would never reach infinity. Infinity has to be reached in one shot or not at all; it can't be reached over time.
 
No it isn't. All it requires is infinte possible alterations resulting in a timeline for each. For example if I could move anywhere in 3 dimesnions I would have infinite possible directions to move if you include all variations down to the smallest numbers, if each possible direction resulted in an alternate timeline then infinte timelines. Or the infinte number of possible constants for the universe during it's start could result in infinite permutations for the finite age multiverse if each is a timeline. Thats just two examples, im sure i could think of tons more with infinite versions of events. Point is it's directly stated, and you don't have to understand it for it to be true in fiction anyway, like how DC multiverse is a finite age yet has infinte timelines, or how Noein is the same expansive model with finite age yet infnite.

See above.

You need actual proof to show it is hyperbole. This flowery language stuff isn't proof.
 
There is no possibility in where infinite permutations could be generated in terms of either a universe or a multiverse. What you are saying right now frankly just doesn't make logical sense. You can never reach infinity, not even if every plank length moving in a plank time would spawn a different universe. Which is not how it happens in Dragon Ball Xenoverse. Creation of timelines is done via interference with history. It's like Back to the Future.

DC Multiverse doesn't have a finite age, it has realms which exist outside of linear time. The universe has a finite age of 20 billion years. Not the multiverse.
 
We are refering to a multiverse in this case man, a multiverse can logically have infinite timelines in it's history if there are events which could have had infinite outcomes resulting in infinite timelines.
 
See above. You can have events with infinte outcomes. numbers can grow smaller infinitly therefore tehre are literaly infinte directions you could move, and there are an infinite number of possible numbers for universal constants which could result in diffrent universes. There are infinte possible events in the universe. Either way it is stated directly so whether you understand it or if it makes sense is irrelivent since it is directly sated there are non finite amount of timelines in history.
 
SSJRyu1, you cant have infinite outcomes and there aren't infinite directions for you to move. It is so basic. You re-stating an objectively, scientifically incorrect claim over again won't make it right.

Also weren't you going to sleep?
 
Why is everything above 3-A a headache to discuss? x.x anyway are that statements about the verse being described as "infinite" instead of just having infinite events? That would probably be better.
 
Yes you can have infinite outcomes. Simple one, what is the universal constant for gravity? What if it were to be something else and result in another universe? How many possible numbers are there for it to be resulting in possible universes? Infinite.

How many directions are there to move? Well, how many points on a sphere for which you could move toward? Infininte. Planck length is just how far we can measure, technically there is an infntely small size resulting in infnte points or directions.

And yes, I just keep getting asked questions which I wanted to make clear my stance on before leaving.

Anyhow, I will check back tommorow.
 
Yes, it is being described as infinite timelines in "history", as in infinte existing timelines that already are written, not future events that haven't happened.
 
But infinite past events can't have happened without the universe itself being temporally infinite.
 
In one universe true, but this is a multiverse, if you have an event with infnite possible outcomes, like teh constants for teh universe which are numbers, then if each possible outcome makes a seperate universe you could wind up with infnte diffrent universes each with a diffrent set of constants. Thats one example of an infnte multiverse being born from one event. So it is possible. Also they directly say it is not finite so even if it were illogical they say it outright, and fiction doesn;t always follow logic.
 
@SSJRyu There is no event with infinite possible outcomes. Without pre-assuming an infinite number in an equation, infinity cannot be reached.
 
how many possible numbers could be given to universal constants? infinite. How many directions are there when goign down to points? infinite. So there are examples of infinte possible outcomes in events. Either way it doesn't matter since it is directly stated that the number of timelines in history is not finitie, so we take what is given in the source over our personal RL interpritation anyway.
 
@SSJRyu

1. How many possible numbers could be given to universe constants? A very high yet finite number.

2. How many directions are there when going down to points? Objectively and measurably finite. The smallest possible length in the universe is a Planck length. The smallest possible unit of time is the Planck time. Even if you have access to the entire universe within a single Planck time (which would make you obscenely FTL to an insane degree) you would have 5.516x10^185 possible locations to go to. Finite.

Therefore there is no possible way that any event can have infinite outcomes unless one of the variables in the equation is already assumed to be infinite.
 
To get it upgraded Ryu.... You are going to need a statement so ludicrously simple that there isn't any way to debunk it, like a blatant statement that explicitly says Infinite Timelines/DImensions. Sorry, I'm not standing behind this.
 
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