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Regarding our Standards for Multipliers

Dragonmasterxyz

Dragonmasterxyz

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So this is something brought up during the Nanatsu no Taizai Upgrade and something that was brought up a lot in the past. This has lead to many verses getting downgraded due to said controversy of multipliers alone, from many verses being compared to others due to this.

The common complaint is that, "if Dragon Ball, YuYu Hakusho, etc could not get said multiplier for this very reason, then this verse should not either." Many people have pointed this out as an Association Fallacy. At the same time, there is also the looming issue of falling into double standards. This is what I am worried about.

While the fan favorite answer here is case-by-case, we still have to avoid falling for a double standard here. We need guidelines that not only supports case by case analysis, but also keeps us from potentially applying double standards. In a way, us still having each verse follow their own rules, but at the same time, us being consistent with how we handle multipliers all around. And we also don't want one single verse being the single guiding light for multipliers either.

Hence here, I want to discuss standards here.
 
I have no proposition. Hence why it's a discussion on how we should write our standards. Similar to how we did Void mechanics and such.
 
I think that it should be a case by case thing. As in taking in the context of the multiplier itself into consideration. Does it unreasonably inflate results to outlier proportions? Does it just not make sense? Can it be used to abuse powerscaling? Etc etc etc.

We shouldn't have double standards, but we can't use that as a reason to let a couple of Shounen series be the absolute decider for everything. A multiplier of x2 or x4 is very different from a multiplier of 100x or other ridiculous amounts.

"But Versus, people will complain why DB or some other series don't get multipliers and then complain about another getting it"

Then we should define exactly why we don't accept a multiplier for those series, and those series alone. We have people complain about series like DB, witch is known for its incredibly toxic fanbase, all the time. I doubt this would be anything we haven't dealt with before.

This is my take so far.
 
Well one of the first things that should be noted is if the fiction even treats their own multipliers correctly. By that I mean if a character gets a 10 times boost yet their opponent is still able to keep up with them without having "holding back" nonsense, then the boost is likely not legit.

There is also the fact that most authors don't do math, so multiplying a number that they likely don't know themselves (the AP) with the boost level gives unrealistic results out of nowhere.

I don't have much of an opinion on how exactly to treat these though.

Also I call nonsense on DBZ not having multipliers when we have High 4-C based on High 5-A feats.
 
If the multiplier isn't absolutely insane to the point of inconsistency, I can see using it.

Beyond that of course, is a no.

NNT Multipliers for the God tiers, for example, are consistent, they are vastly superior to the rest of the cast to the point of cutbstomping them and the multiplier itself doesn't give off any ridiculous consistency busting stat differences.
 
My opinion is that if there is a verse with perfectly logical multipliers that are confirmed by multiple sources then they should be used. If that verse's multipliers are ignored without good reasoning behind it, then it would be bias to allow multipliers for other verses.
 
I feel that if it is a statement alone and nothing else, or if it is a statement that contradicts how it's applied against characters whose AP is being multiplied, then it should not be considered unless it is coming from a reliable source.

If, however, the statement is backed by the appropriate characters getting stomped in-verse (Kars' statement of his Hamon being hundreds of times stronger than Joseph's for example), then it can be considered to be true until proven otherwise.
 
I say verse by verse, some verses make the difference in multipliers clear. If someone literally says that another person is 4 times stronger with a 4 times power level increase. Then that is pretty clear. But if someone just goes from PL: 300 to PL: 1200 and have no new feats and are only stated to be stronger(no specifics), you can not use that to increase AP.
 
When you say multipliers, I assume you mean a certain transformation or ability granting a character something like x50 strength, right?

In that case, so long as it has been backed up canonically (ie have a character whom was unable to harm another suddenly be able to challenge and maybe even exceed them) or through word of god (have the author confirm or re-state it) then I am fine with said multipliers. All previous calculations would be multiplied or divided to fit said increase/decrease of power.

If has clear inconsistencies with said multiplier such as two characters whom were fighting relatively similarly with only minor differences in strengh, and one character recieves a supposed > x10 multiplier and is still not able to one-shot the other character, than logically it does not make sense and would downplay the credibility of said statement.

When it comes to stacking multipliers, I think that's where issues begin. I believe we would just add said multipliers in the order they were applied (such as fusions using Super Saiyain in DBZ. Since they logically fuse first, and then go Super Saiyan, we would apply the fusion dance multiplier first and then the Super Saiyain multiplier.), but if there is no clear order in which they were applied, then I propose using feats to determine said outcome.
 
Rocker1189 said:
I say verse by verse, some verses make the difference in multipliers clear. If someone literally says that another person is 4 times stronger with a 4 times power level increase. Then that is pretty clear. But if someone just goes from PL: 300 to PL: 1200 and have no new feats and are only stated to be stronger, you can not use that to increase AP.
Click to expand...
This pretty much.

We consider Meliodas' Full Counter multiplier legit because it is shown extremely consistently that the reflected attack is much stronger than the original.
 
Also, should the number also be an issue in this? Such as we have someone with a 300x multipliers, yet it is consistent with absolutely everything, statements lore, etc, are those to be ignored simply due to the extremely high number or?
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Also, should the number also be an issue in this? Such as we have someone with a 300x multipliers, yet it is consistent with absolutely everything, statements lore, etc, are those to be ignored simply due to the extremely high number or?
Click to expand...
If it is blatantly consistent then there is no reason for it to be ignored.
 
If there's nothing contradicting them possibly being whatever times stronger. Than I'm not against it. But as I said, context matters.
 
So, how about this?

"For multipliers that grant incredibly large boosts from hundred to even thousands, there must be a significant amount of evidence showing the consistency of these multipliers for them to be accepted"

Wording could use some work, but eh.
 
A common example is Jin Mo-Ri who actually has an accepted 250,000x multiplier to his stats. And I think it's seen as consistent as well.

Of course similar to our void feats page, I would prefer we at least have some examples of accepted multipliers as well as reasons given to what made them reasonable enough to be accepted.
 
What Prof said, if the multiplier is shown not to be true then we just simply wouldn't count it. On the other hand if the character said that and does oneshot the opponent along with the opponent being unable to damage him and the character is the type who wouldn't make up a random high number then we should count it.
 
It likely doesn't need to be said, but non-canon multipliers are not to be accepted.
 
I personally feel the OP makes sense. I should note the reason Dragon ball has High 4-C characters is because of the whole roughly where in between they are from High 5-A to 4-B Because everyone being at least High 5-A possibly far higher seems even worse. Especially since Cell's weaker forms are legit closer to the latter than the former. But yeah, Multipliers being in the hundreds to thousands really seems iffy if they don't suddenly oneshot their opponent. I also agree that many authors really don't know math all to well.

That being said, simple multipliers do feel case by case. Though, I generally feel video game powers ups that multiply/divide damage should preferably be treated as game mechanics rather than AP/Durability multipliers. Though if the best feat in the verse is this one feat, and we have characters who scale from having a multiplier above that, then having Tier jumps seems, iffy at best.
 
Multipliers are usually very iffy, since, as it was already said, authors usually don't think of calced numbers when saying that someone is "x times stronger".

Despite multipliers being a case by case thing, I feel like they should only be accepted if the verse already has >= feats of the same proportions. So if someone is 3x stronger, and we already have a God tier in the verse who is above that, then the multiplier should be enough evidence. Otherwise, I feel like it's too unreliable to use, and could create outliers/unreliable statistics.
 
The problem already lays in the name. Multipliers.

What exactly is it we have to multiply?

When things like "upgraded by factor of X" are brought into question the first thing we always have to do is to determine what exactly is it which will be upgraded and then check whether or not this is a specific thing or a general thing.

For example a general multiplier which is said to increase a characters power x10 is nothing we should simply accepts as a given.

How is his power compunded? How much of the x10 multiplication are distributed to his strenght? How much to his speed? His elemental affinity (magic power) or his actual physical prowess?

General multipliers have been rejected for a long time because they dont distinguish between these factors. It would mean without further details we would randomly multipy literal all these things by the given factor (x10 in my example).

A difference are unique or specific multipliers. Often these kind of multipliers dont carry over to the individual in question as a whole but are clear and cut determined by one single attribute.

In case of Nanatsu no Taizai (using this example due to it being in the OP) the Full Counter multiplier is a perfect example. It does not care about speed. It does not care about elemental affinity and it does not care about any form of actual physical prowess whatever user might or might not have. It is explicity and solely stated to work on one thing only: incoming atk power is reinforced by at least factor 2 and send back to point of origin. There is no questionable other multiplication involved.

-

This is a very crucial distinction we have to make. I am opposed to random multipliers when we have no reason how these multipliers will be distributed among the beneficiary - which is often not explained in detail.

I am in favour of explicit multipliers which get a proper explaining.
 
I remember someone used multipliers to get MFTL Naruto. When I say MFTL, I mean like in the undecillions. Even if we accept multipliers in general, we would still need to check each multiplier's logic before allowing that specific one.
 
I think it's ok if it's not contradicted without justification. I mean, we accept 4-A Jin Mo Ri via kiing quadrillions of 4-Cs with one attack, as it's not contradicted elsewhere. I don't see how God's being 8x stronger than the next strongest being is inconsistent. I don't think the number itself should factor in, just if it's consistent or not. I mean, look at 2-A and 1-A scaling for some verses. Infinities stacked upon infinities are accepted because they are consistent. This should be ok.
 
I think it should work this way. If a multiplier is specifically explained to multiply a certain thing like speed or strength, then it should be used as such. If it's just a general statement of "My power is ten times greater!" then we would only use what that multiplier has been shown to boost. For example if the guy with the 10X boost wasn't shown to be faster than before, just physically stronger then we would just apply the multiplier to AP. If the guy is not only shown to be stronger, but fast enough to blitz people that were on his level before the boost then we would apply the multiplier to speed as well.
 
Yeah, i agree. Those multipliers of power will generally be referring to AP though.
 
I'm just gonna speak for DB but the logic inherent in my argument should also apply to other verses that have consistent large progressive escalation of power essentially as a core mechanic.

It's bizarre to me that like 3-As not scaling to Low 2-Cs they fight is accepted on the basis that the difference in power between the two within a geometric dimensional tiering system being infinite is not considered by the writers...but the use of multipliers is dismissed because they'd cause inconsistencies and necessitate too great of a disparity in power of characters from one arc to the next (or within any given arc).
 
Kinnikuman Burning Inner Strength seems to multiply all his stats like the DBZ powerups.
 
I would say for the most part that when someone is say 250,000x stronger then it means AP as being stronger doesn't really imply speed. If said multiplier is given when someone is lifting something, I'd say lifting strength.
 
But to what would stronger scale? To his physical prowess? To his magic power? Can he now just punch someone harder? Or have his fireballs also more potency behind? Is it both? If its both, why has he not said "more power"? There are a lot of things wich are unclear in terms of a lot of multipliers.
 
I have seen people discussing that SSG Goku should be 3-A, SSB Goku being High 3-A to Low 2-C in the ROF Frieza to Goku Black Arc and UI 2-C to MUI 2-B in Tournament of Power with the UI stuff because of the fan-multipliers theories.
 
There is no need to think so deeply about it, it just overcomplicates things. If they are x times stronger and said character has shown to have equal power in both physical prowess and say magical prowess, it should multiply both. If the context from the multipliers are magic based, then it is magic oriented. If we are talking about a physical fighter, then obviously it's their physical stats. Context matters.
 
This is an important issue.

Especially for me and Litentric working on the KHR revisions.

The verse has consistent multipliers and up-scailing which would upgrade a lot of them from 7-A to at least High 7-A and the god tier would be 6-C.
 
That may cause danger of multipliers being abused in my eyes. When we do not critically scrutinize the details of multipliers we open the doors to many forms of multiplier related upgrades without calcs to back them up.

Calc A -> Multiplier X -> New Base -> Someone new being "twice as strong" -> New base etc. etc.
 
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