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SMT Revisions 2.0

Yobo_Blue

Yobo_Blue

31,701
5,478
Continued from https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1639933#344

Okay, a few things need a bit of sorting out

1. The canonicity of demon fusion and including abilities from fusees. Multiple demons refer to it and want you to summon them using demon fusion specifically.

2. High 2-A. The Expanse is constantly treated as being above the multiverse and a higher plane which many demons affect, as well as the kanji (ÚÜÄ) being used in the original indicating trancendence of planes rather than parallel worlds.

3. Protagonists who become demons, like Demi-fiend and Abel. Should they have High Godly regen, since they are demons, and would they still have the ability of observation? Furthermore, Abel's page is of poor quality and likely needs a update.

4. Krishna's tiering and scaling.

5. Whether YHVH's manifestation heads are actual things or just a SMT IVA retcon.

6. Merkabah and Lucifer's tiering and possible 1-C tier for making up half of Satan's power, as well as Johnathan and Walter being able to fight YHVH.

7. YHVH being scaled to Polaris and Canopus..... why?
 
I'm just going to put my opinon here since I am a fan of SMT in general.

3. since they did become demons they both should have High Godly and not have observation since that is specifically for humans and they both descarded their humanity into demonhood.

6 The really shoulnd't be 1-C if only because if they become 1-C then a whole lot of character will become 1-C, since both of them are at least comparable to the Divine Powers and a whole bunch of other angels and demons. That's gonna be messy if that goes through. I'm not truely againts it just very nervous on when that happens.
 
^

3 : gonna disargree with you on that point. True Demon Demi-Fiend was made to be a key to flip the balance of eternal war between Law and Chaos, so he should be able to kill the demons like any other human. Not to mention, Kagutsuchi is dead for good (arcross entire past-future and present)after getting killed by Demi-Fiend. So the humans after become god/demon/transendence should be able to retain their Observation power

Another evidence would be Vishnu-Flynn. Flynn is Divine Power's God Slayer, and even after Krishna fused with Flynn, he's still confident that he could take out YHVH with this new God Slayer body.
 
I guess that coincides with Stephen considering the protagonists messiahs, so humans that become demons should keep observation
 
Most of them are good (i still have some issues with current High 2-A rating tho.) Except for this :


Speed: At least Superhuman movement, Immeasurable reactions and combat speed (Is able to fight beings like Metatron and assembled an army against YHVH in one ending)

This doesnt make any sense. You are already fought a being who have immeasurable speed (and even omnipresent) and you only have superhuman movement ? He should have full immeasurable speed
 
Clockwork Cookies said:
Most of them are good (i still have some issues with current High 2-A rating tho.) Except for this :


Speed: At least Superhuman movement, Immeasurable reactions and combat speed (Is able to fight beings like Metatron and assembled an army against YHVH in one ending)

This doesnt make any sense. You are already fought a being who have immeasurable speed (and even omnipresent) and you only have superhuman movement ? He should have full immeasurable speed
Click to expand...
I do too, but it is what it is.

I should probably add that though.
 
K, I've updated my blog with the stuff decided about Regenerationn here, should I message a staff to open the profile?
 
1. Demon Fusion is definitely canon. As Krishna literally lends you his power so you can fuse him in Apocalypse. Unsure about giving them abilities from their fusees though

2. I disagree. Simply being in a higher plane of existence above the Multiverse is not enough to be High 2-A. Madoka resides on a higher plane of existence, yet we don't have her at High 2-A

3. I don't see any reason for them to not have High-Godly Regenerationn, as they explicitly became Demons. Observation is a Maybe, Hallelujah is a half-demon and still has his Observation abilities

4. Not sure on what to do with Krishna

5. Indifferent regarding this. But i think that them being a real thing is a possibility, since they basically say that each Head = A Universe

7. It is just very hard to believe the main threat of the entire franchise would be so vastly weaker than the Antagonists of a single game. Heck, Brahman and Canopus existing fits with a translation from Megami Tensei II where YHVH says there are beings like Him governing their own "Universes" separate from his own
 
I agree with you for the most part. However.

2. Like I mentioned before, there are characters like the Eldrazi who are at High 2-A for that very reason. It seems like one of those things that can swing either way.
 
^

1 : Well, there is gonna be a problem when people want to ask about ã░hether the fusioned demons are strong as their original counterpart (obviously, i will answer no. What about you guy?)

7 : not sure how you can say YHVH is weaker. He is obviously the strongest among them with the 1-C tiering. Canopus's tiering is still arguable, he could be downgraded to 2-B anytime soon. Also, i remember the lines YHVH said in MT2 is "infinite cosmos", not "infinite universes". Gotta check that out again :p
 
Yobobojojo said:
2. Like I mentioned before, there are characters like the Eldrazi who are at High 2-A for that very reason. It seems like one of those things that can swing either way.
Click to expand...
I though the Eldrazies have solid higher dimension feat ? Are they not ?
 
Yobobojojo said:
They have High 2-A for existing on a plane above the multiverse.
Click to expand...
Emrakul's profile say it's true self is residing in a hogher dimension...

Welp, since i am no MTG expert, it's probally the best to ask Azzy about this
 
Clockwork Cookies said:
Found it
Endless cosmos
Click to expand...
There is like. Two translations for that line. One where he says he is a part of an entity which controls all of existence and one where he says that there are beings similar to him in other universes

Although I definitely wouldn't mind if he returned to 2-A
 
Never though there were 2 translations :v

But aside from tier. Another thing i found silly is... This :

-Conceptual Manipulation (Scalling from lesser entities capable of administrating all concepts that comprise the world and define it's past, present and future as if they were merely Information on a computer program)

-Void Manipulation (Characters far weaker than Lucifer can completely destroy beings of nothingness with nothing but normal attacks, and control the primordial void of nothingness that consumes and erases everything that comes in contact with it, even concepts and the fundamental Information that comprises all of reality)

You can find these in most high tier demons. I really hope these are not refer to the administrators from DeSu2... Because if it's true then this is wrong. Those multiversal authorities are not their own power, it's the Heavenly Throne's power. One thing you can see for sure when playing Triangulum arc is how powerless is an administrator (Arcturus) is without the Throne. They possess no power over the multiverse when outside of the throne, so scailing from them is a bad idea. Furthur more, if administrators are demonic entities like in mainline SMT then i suppose you can get something from them, but these are some aliens... The megami tensei wiki list them not as "demons" but as "invaders"
 
I was uncertain about that when I thought about adding it too

Although. I personally think it should scale. Reality Warping is a 100% general ability that all powerful Demons in Shin Megami Tensei have, as it is a passive consequence of the act of them existing (as shown in the original Megami Tensei Novels) which certainly depends on their own Powers

It wouldn't make sense for them to be incapable of reproducing feats that inferior entities / artifacts are capable of accomplishing, especially since the scale of their Reality Warping depends on their sheer potency

Nerermind that... We already have Demons who are capable of manipulating the "Data" that comprises Reality outside of the Mainline. Brahman is one of them
 
Well, the only problem is that the administrators are not demons. I perfectly 100% argree about higher power demons should be able to do what the lower scail demons could. But these are just some freaking aliens :v

Anyway, if you say so about Brahman then i think there woild be no problem. But gotta change those descriptions to avoid confusions :p
 
Didn't Matt say Kagutsuchi was infinitely above baseline 2-A? If so, wouldn't that put him at High 2-A (or at least possibly High 2-A)? That would be better grounds for making many of the 'at least 2-A' entires at about High 2-A rather than scaling to Canopus.
 
Being infinitely above the destruction of an infinite Multiverse isn't 5-D. Adding infinities won't give you another axis of movement
 
The Eldrazi have a more explicit statement than that, not a great comparison to make. Ugin likened the true forms of the eldrazi to a guy sticking his hand in a pond, where the pond represents the MTG multiverse. What they did by sealing the Eldrazi is likened to driving a stake through the hand, which prevents him from just getting up and leaving but is ultimately inconsequential to the full being. The MTG multiverse is referred to as flat compared to the true Eldrazi, and that they're generically higher dimensional. 5-D is used as a lowball.
 
I know nothing about SMT, just wanted to clear up the usage of that example for clarity's sake.
 
1. The Fusion between demons is something canon that is from the first work of all Megami Tensei, like the levels.

2. I always believe that The Expanse exists above the multiverse / Amala.

3. They must have both H-Godly Regen and Observation, Hal of SMT4: F is an example of this being the son of a demon and a human being.

4. In Vishnu and its avatars I have my doubts, I have understood that Krishna in a story or something of the mythology Indu, transcends all forms of time-space, dimensions, logic, philosophy and mathematical rules as physics or something like that(I dont remember).

5. I do not think that it is a Retcon, I think that YHVH's head in SMT2 is one of the infinite that governs over the countless universes / multiverses, SMT4: F only increases more the Level of the work and that it is only a representation or infinite manifestation of the true YHVH that is everywhere, ruling over the creation, observing, moving the threads, etc.

6. I do not believe that Lucifer and Merkabah have that level, what is shown only reaches High 2-A

7. For me, Canopus is inferior to YHVH the true one, and only one head / manifestation of this = a Canopus possibly if it does not surpass Canopus
 
@Extreme

About 3

"Their theologies are generally centered either on Vishnu or an avatar such as Krishna as supreme. The terms Krishnaism and Vishnuism have sometimes been used to distinguish the two, the former implying that Krishna is the transcendent Supreme Being"
 
Can we get low level demons like Rukh, The Elementals, All Fairys, Raiju, Kohryu and the celestial creatures in Chinese constellation, etc?
 
The Elementals should all be at least 8-A due to being somewhat scalable to the wind Elemental who should be able to make tornados... Which are 8-A and all..

Raiju should be at least 8-C due to being cloud to ground lightning and supposedly comparable to tutorial Flynn

Celestial creatures should be... 2-A?

I know this is weird, but going by Myako Hotsuin Fate system, she gets Koryu (One of the celestial creatures in Chinese constellation... After she gets Sandalphon, who is pretty much Metatron Twin brother and thus should be comparable to him... Not to mention that on Strange Journey, you need to fuse Aniel and Kazfiel (Two Cardinal Angels) to get him... So yeah, Chinese stuff is 2-A if I am not wrong as hell, which I may be.)
 
Persona doesn't even have that feats for demons there, the shadows are pretty much featless on that verse except that one liner that they usually have on the compendium that not always means something
 
I was more talking about the Fate System and the Demons you summon.

They don't scale because they are in-game summons who are Stands with no personality, and are basically caricatures of the real thing. They literally play no part in the Plot of the game at all and are never bought up in any way, we can't scale anyone to them simply because they are in the game (As part of what is literally a Game Mechanic at that)

Nevermind that I am pretty sure the DeSu2 in-game Demons are said to be Data from the Akashic Record
 
oh okay then, Raiju should be 8-C with Massively Hypersonic by going at his profile of "riding lightning' and being comparable to tutorial Flynn.

And the elementals should still be comparable to Aeros, if any of the others Elementals didn't make a better feat.
 
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