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Downgrading White and Red Rangers from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

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Iustitia_Prime

Iustitia_Prime

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This is the current profile for Tommy Oliver, the original sixth ranger-

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tommy_Oliver

And Jason the original Red Ranger-

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jason_Lee_Scott

All I can think is NOPE!

Let me start off by saying that I am not diametrically opposed to power scaling. Scaling is good when used conservatively if logical or needed. If too liberally applied I think it over-inflates the abilities of characters that could affect an entire verse's rankings. Power Rangers has many powerful characters and there are planet-busters, but the Green/White and Red Rangers of the original Mighty Morphin series are not as powerful as these profiles suggest. It's actually kind of cringe-worthy in my eyes that this isn't instantly suspect.

I love Power Rangers. I still have all my Ranger figures and Megazords from the 90's. I watched the show until Lost Galaxy started and I couldn't take it any more. Came back for Lightspeed Rescue until Wild Force and stopped after that. Whether I grew out of it or I couldn't take the re-used premises again and again, I was a massive fan of it. I'm just saying this as a disclaimer because I'm sure there will be accusations by someone of down-playing or hating on the series.

So yeah, I watched the show, I played the Nintendo game (Shogunzord for the ************* win), I collected the fogures. Never in my time watching the show as a child or watching reruns as an adult did I ever witness anything from the original Rangers even approaching planet-level durability, strength or attack potency. I addressed here-

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/145059#104

that the justifications for these rankings come from unjustified powerscaling from the MAGIC of the villains. To be fair, Rita Rapulsa and Lord Zedd do some crazy shit with their magic. It is my contention though that this is abusing scaling. Zedd having crazy magic doesn't mean that a punch from Zedd is planet level. It also doesn't mean that a Ranger surviving a few casual magic blasts from Zedd in a fight where he's clearly toying with him is proof of insane durability.

I'd like to appeal to the board to reconsider these rankings. There are times when power scaling is justified because of self-evident comparative stats. But Rita and Zedd having broken magic doesn't mean the Rangers are planet-level. I don't see it. It's like I watched a completely different show than is being cited. I even posted a link in the above referenced thread to a fight where the White Ranger supposedly had great showings and, again, Zedd toyed with him the whole time and there's no reasonable justification for assuming the hits Tommy took were even close to Zedd's peak magic power. Tommy was lucky to get away because Zedd's Z-staff broke after Tommy threw Saba at it.

I think we need to reexamine the scaling used for the few Power Rangers pages here and be careful importing some NarutoForums scaling. They get a lot of things right but they really applied scaling liberally to get the heroes' strength, durability and attack potency from the villains' unquantifiable magic feats.
 
Looking back at the calcs from Narutoforums, They actually seem pretty sound (most anyway). For instance, Tommy's strength calcs. There are three all of which are scaled from others. Rito Revolto landing on the moon seems accurate. Along with Zedd spinning the world (Although I wouldn't necessarily call spinning the world equal to destroying it).

The only one that should be changed is Rita Repulsa's solar eclipse feat as Rita did so using magic, and as you've said before it's a hax power. If that were to be included as a feat of strength, then I guess Princess Celestia has Star Level destruction since she can move the sun using magic, and this wiki has already gone through a whole lot of work to change that, but that's another story.
 
Untedbear said:
Looking back at the calcs from Narutoforums, They actually seem pretty sound (most anyway). For instance, Tommy's strength calcs. There are three all of which are scaled from others. Rito Revolto landing on the moon seems accurate. Along with Zedd spinning the world (Although I wouldn't necessarily call spinning the world equal to destroying it).
The only one that should be changed is Rita Repulsa's solar eclipse feat as Rita did so using magic, and as you've said before it's a hax power. If that were to be included as a feat of strength, then I guess Princess Celestia has Star Level destruction since she can move the sun using magic, and this wiki has already gone through a whole lot of work to change that, but that's another story.
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Let me be clear in that my issue is with getting strength, durability and attacking stats from magic hax. They just don't scale. Again, the attacks used by Zedd were in a fight in which he dominated Tommy, toying with him. Nothing suggests Zedd used anything close to his full power. Using Rita is even worse as it doesn't even involve Tommy. Even the page suggests Tommy should scale because he's "at least comparable to Rita" which is just not rational.

As for the Rito calcs, neither Tommy nor Rito show anything close to FTL speed in combat. I know there's a calc on NarutoForums but doesn't this place have a strict view of lightning-dodging? Even the calc on NarutoForums for his speed is based off another calc for Zedd's lightning. Which could be considered calc stacking. Even then, aim-dodging doesn't mean he trades blows FTL nor that Tommy does. Not that it matters, because I don't really care about the speed calcs. Nobody would suggest that Power Rangers aren't superhuman and they clearly have higher strength and speed than the average person.

That said, getting island level for Tommy because he fought someone who crashed into the moon? The justification for Tommy being Large Island level in attack potency and durability is that he "fought evenly with Rito Revolto and Goldar" First off, why is Goldar even mentioned? Is Goldar an island-buster? Goldar is a mook. What am I missing here? And why does simply fighting evenly with the idiot brother of Rita make Tommy island level? Did he kill him? No, clearly not. Did he seriously injure him with one or two blows that clearly exceed the durability scaled from that moon crashing? Rito's actual attacks are like city block level and they destroyed the Tigerzord.

Speaking of which, can we just admit that's it's irrational to assume the MMPR are planet level when their main weapons don't even reach island level? I can't write that off as just PIS/CIS. Forgetting to use your one-hit KO sword to kill the monster until after he grows gigantic and starts fighting you? Yeah whatever. Using giant robots in the first place when apparantly one ranger alone could kill a giant monster with a planet-level punch? That's insane.

Let's look at the Tigerzord. The Tigerzord is Tommy's main tool against Zedd's forces, and it has a power output of 75,000 Megavolts. MV=V*1e+6, and J=V*C. The Tigerzord's main attack is the White Tiger 'Thunderbolt'. If we assume 350 Coloumbs, we get 2.625e+13 for J or 6.27390057361 kilotons of TNT - town level. And this is assuming 350 Coloumbs which is a high-end for thunderbolts. In reality most thunderbolts are around 15 Coloumbs, which would yield only 268.88 tons of TNT, only multi-city block level and frankly more realistic. But I'd accept town-level Tigerzord over large planet White Ranger any day of the week.

I mean these are questions that I think ought to be asked instead of just accepting calcs from other sites. I posted calcs here for Transformers characters where I've had to be conservative and correct their math because they make some unjustified assumptions. If the most well-known pages receive intense scrutiny so should the less known ones. You can't get stats for one character from another's magic that isn't even used against them.

So... yeah, again I'm not especially outraged by the speed scaling. While that's iffy the other major stats are way over-inflated. Like it bothers me that it's not immediately called out.
 
The Everlasting said:
Uhh, yeah, that's because you made it and you disagree with Tommy's rankings. Not really the best example to use.
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I made it using actual facts. I didn't abuse power scaling to make a multi block level robot into a large planet level robot. That's the point. Tommy's rankings are way above where he should be including where he'd be with his mechs. I can't speak for him in Dino Thunder, but in MMPR he isn't that powerful. And as I've shown, the only thing given to justify it thus far is bad scaling from an enemy's magic that he didn't match to begin with.
 
That figure comes from the original specs released for the Tigerzord in 1994.

Ok, thanks. Just wasn't sure. Anyways, Iustitia Prime, can I ask you this? Do you agree with the concept of Attack Potency and how it's used in this wiki? It seems that this argument on Tommy and the rest of the Power Rangers's power could be a misunderstanding on how Attack Potency works.
 
Untedbear said:
That figure comes from the original specs released for the Tigerzord in 1994.
Click to expand...
Ok, thanks. Just wasn't sure. Anyways, Iustitia Prime, can I ask you this? Do you agree with the concept of Attack Potency and how it's used in this wiki? It seems that this argument on Tommy and the rest of the Power Rangers's power could be a misunderstanding on how Attack Potency works.

I agree with how it's described on its respective page, that it's the amount of damage one character can do in actual destructive yield or injury to another character with comparative durability. I do not agree with how it's being presented here, that merely fighting someone with stats in certain fields automatically grants a character the exact same level in strength, durability and attack potency.

If Frieza can survive a planet blowing up in his face, it's not hard to say he has planet level durability and that by killing him Trunks had planet level striking power or attack potency. It's another thing to say that Tommy Oliver who's pretty super human is large planet level in attacking power because he fought a guy with planet level magic even if that power wasn't used in their fight. Or that fighting jabronis like Rito and Goldar makes him Island level just for having fought them.

As I've made clear, I am not against power scaling. I am against abusing it. It's a useful tool when used appropriately, but it's an inflationary one when incorrectly. Tommy does not have planet or island level attack potency. He just doesn't.
 
I, honestly, see nothing wrong with the stats. There are many other characters/items who recieve stats for similar feats, even when they are holding back or restrained such as Naruto without his . On top of that, it's not like it took that much energy for Zedd to performed the Planet level feat in the first place and Zedd was throughly angry after Tommy gave the final blow with Saba retreating. Scaling a character from several directly blows, both physically and through means of energy attacks, isn't powerscale abuse.
 
Dino Ranger Black said:
I, honestly, see nothing wrong with the stats. There are many other characters/items who recieve stats for similar feats, even when they are holding back or restrained such as Naruto without his . On top of that, it's not like it took that much energy for Zedd to performed the Planet level feat in the first place and Zedd was throughly angry after Tommy gave the final blow with Saba retreating. Scaling a character from several directly blows, both physically and through means of energy attacks, isn't powerscale abuse.
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Yup seems like there's a lot of people here that see nothing wrong with inflated stats. After having it pointed out why they're wrong. It's quite literally mind-boggling that this is the response I'm seeing.

You're defending a logical fallacy. Two wrongs make a right. Just because other bad examples of scaling exist doesn't justify ignoring these horrendous ones I'm pointing out right here and now.

And your point on Zedd? My point exactly. It's unquantifiable. We have no idea how much power he used. It can be reasonably assumed that it wasn't anywhere near planet level since all it did was knock Tommy around. It didn't affect any heavenly bodies, it didn't affect the cosmos. Zedd blasted Tommy casually and tauntingly. He wasn't trying.

Rewatching the Earth-spinning episode as I type this....

Mad. I am legit mad now. Zedd didn't even do what the calcs say he did. Zedd used his magic to activate another power source, a mcguffin called the Rock of Time. That's what turned back time. I am so annoyed that all it took was five minutes to find this out yet people are lined up to support scaling MMPR to this shit.

No. Lord Zedd didn't demonstrate that kind of power and even if you want to be generous and scale Zedd to the Rock of Time it still doesn't change that Zedd's plot in this episode is carried out with a completely different demeanor than his one-sided trolling of Tommy. This is so absurd that I can't believe it.

The Mighty Morphin Power Rangers are not island, planet or large planet level and all this scaling is not only ilogical but also causing a huge inflation of rankings. This needs to stop.

I mean jeeze people, I just rewatched it. Zedd outright says he's going to wait for the Rock of Time to do the supposed feat, and literally has a monologue after that while he waits for it to finish happening. Goldar then goads Zedd into speeding it up, and Zedd does the same thing, using his power on the Rock of Time. So Zedd needs a magic mcguffin to do this feat, and Zedd's magic itself in this episode is still unquintifiable, and we're going to condense these facts as "OMG LARGE PLANET ZEDD" then ignore that his magic doesn't scale to Tommy in a fight where the latter got trounced in order to get "OMG LARGE PLANET TOMMY".

This is as bad as when Death Battle got the White Ranger's speed stat from his lifting strength after scaling from a completely separate series. This is that bad. Maybe worse. At least they had Tommy at 2 tons and supersonic reactions which is better than FTL planet-buster. So I guess my question is if any of you that didn't see a problem with this scaling before see a problem now? If people want to keep denying that this is scaling abuse then I don't know what to say. This is why I'm saying that these NarutoForums calcs need to be scrutinized and examined before copying and pasting them here and potentially inflating an entire series' ranking. It took me five minutes to debunk this feat and all I had to do was watch the episode being cited. There's no excuse for this level of laziness.
 
As I mentioned in the other thread Zedd had to use the Rock of Time to spin the Earth backwards and Master Vile had to use the Orb of Doom. The fact that they required help from these items would indicate that they could not have done it by themselves.


As for Rita ecylpsing the Sun we never acually see the moon when she is doing it. It's possible that she used some other means to block the light. Even if we did assume she did move the moon it would be easy to assume that's an outlier since she never did anything else on that scale.
 
DarkMastero said:
As I mentioned in the other thread Zedd had to use the Rock of Time to spin the Earth backwards and Master Vile had to use the Orb of Doom. The fact that they required help from these items would indicate that they could not have done it by themselves.

As for Rita ecylpsing the Sun we never acually see the moon when she is doing it. It's possible that she used some other means to block the light. Even if we did assume she did move the moon it would be easy to assume that's an outlier since she never did anything else on that scale.
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I'm inclined to agree, partly because you're right but also because I know I'll get angry if I have to go watch another episode only to find it's the exact opposite of what's being claimed by fans. I didn't want to use the 'W-word' but this is wank.
 
I think that all of the above sounds very reasonable, and obviously agree that glas cannons with reality-warping hax and similar do not somehow automatically scale to physical statistics. Othervise any regular mook capable of knocking out Haruhi Suzumiya would be level 2-C. If the rest of the staff are fine with it, you should feel free to appropriately adjust the Power Rangers pages.
 
Hmmmmm, yes yes, fair and valid points your bring up...

I was thinking of removing the Green Ranger tier anyways since it didn't sit well with me that Green-White Ranger had a power increase like that, and the explanation on Rita's feat is nice. I will add Green Ranger to the White Ranger and other's tier and bump up Jason's tier a bit as he did match the Green Ranger (let's also not forget with the Tommy clone that the Green and White rangers seemed evenly matched).

I will, however, not fix the other stats as I still feel they are accurate to what is displayed in the show. Also Rita is being knocked down a fair bit to her destroying the island in that one episode instead of the solar eclipse when I make her profile. Thank you, goodbye.
 
Pikachu was apparently the one who wrote the current statistics. He also wrote the old solar system level versions for certain My Little Pony characters...
 
Antvasima said:
Pikachu was apparently the one who wrote the current statistics. He also wrote the old solar system level versions for My Little Pony...
Click to expand...
I've actually been meaning to make a thread about that, but I can leave you a message on your wall so as not to clog this thread with something unrelated.
 
I didn't actually make the original Star levels if you wanna look at the original versions that had Continent level at highest, and even then it was a maybe. I was only changed when people kept showing me all these different calcs that I didn't agree with. I agree with the PR calcs though.
 
Because even if the downgrade gets passed Tommy's Black Dino Form still has a Galaxy level feat of beating ToL Zeltrax who handily beat Triassic Ranger before he went Battlizer to make it a stalemate, and Triassic Ranger created the Triassic Dimension which held more than a galaxy.
 
Pikachu942 said:
Because even if the downgrade gets passed Tommy's Black Dino Form still has a Galaxy level feat of beating ToL Zeltrax who handily beat Triassic Ranger before he went Battlizer to make it a stalemate, and Triassic Ranger created the Triassic Dimension which held more than a galaxy.
Click to expand...

Good point, this is When Tommy was at his best, and most badass.

But there is problem for DarkSchneiderKing.
 
Well that escalated quickly.

Looking over the profile it's even inconsistent with itself. Under Powers and Abilities it says that unmorphed he has the strength and speed of a highly trained martial artist, which he does. But then the stats say he's large island level and FTL unmorphed. Now how many highly trained martial artists have FTL speed and island-busting strength?

I feel like whoever was involved with these profiles should either refrain from editing them further or be forced to revise it line by line. Like, I don't know where their knowledge of Power Rangers comes from, but what kind of hardcore fan leaves out his sword Saba? Saba shoots lasers, can fly, communicate with humans and other species and is sentient.

Why are only his Green and Black Ranger items listed under equipment but arguably his most iconic and long-held White Ranger form's aren't? And considering I just made the first profie for a mega/zord on this site, I have to ask, why is there no mention of any of his zords? The absense of which makes me suspect literally everything on here may have been ripped from NarutoForums' tier list topic that excludes all zords and megazords.

I feel like we'd have better Power Ranger profiles here if they were straight up ripped from the PR wikia.
 
I will explain. Tommy's and Jason's profile were originally made a while ago with very low stats, and I simply edited in the new ones and minorly edited the Powers & Abilities and Equipment, though I did not want to add every specific equipment he has and Saba left my brain at the moment I was editig the page.

We decided Zords would get their own pages so we kept them off the Ranger pages.
 
Pikachu942 said:
Because even if the downgrade gets passed Tommy's Black Dino Form still has a Galaxy level feat of beating ToL Zeltrax who handily beat Triassic Ranger before he went Battlizer to make it a stalemate, and Triassic Ranger created the Triassic Dimension which held more than a galaxy.
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Could you post these here for us to analyze?
 
I'll get them later. It should be noted that Kira, the Yellow DT ranger, was in the battle of Tommy vs. Zeltrax, but she did little if anything in the fight to help Tommy overall and was a relative nonfactor.
 
Pikachu942 said:
I'll get them later. It should be noted that Kira, the Yellow DT ranger, was in the battle of Tommy vs. Zeltrax, but she did little if anything in the fight to help Tommy overall and was a relative nonfactor.
Click to expand...
Yeah sure I know, I read the same NarutoForums topic you're getting your stuff from.

Don't even bother later. After googling, wikiaing and more googling I found the episode I needed to watch and I did. The Triassic Ranger didn't create the Triassic Dimension, the Shield of Triumph did. Except that might not even be true since the Triassic Ranger uses it to teleport Terrorsaurus (monster of the week) into the Triassic Dimension. And then even after prolonged fighting with several rangers, it still took two "full power" hits from the Shield of Triumph to kill Terrorsaurus.

Meaning all this galaxy scaling is bullshit. What, is Terrorsaurus galaxy level to the fourth degree at minimum for taking two full powered attacks from a shield supposedly capable of creating a dimension with at least two galaxies? This is more magic mcguffin bullshit, hax and deus ex machina scaling. So no, Triassic Ranger isn't galaxy level for having a shield that can take people to another realm, Zeltrax isn't galaxy level for fighting him, and Tommy isn't galaxy level for fighting that guy. UGH.

I can't ******* believe this.
 
SpecN said:
Welcome to NarutoForums Logic, Prime.
Click to expand...

It's unreal. Half the time I'm in awe of the dedication guys there have to quantifying things with physics, math and equations I could never hope to understand, and the other half of the time I'm dumbfounded by the - and I'm using mild language here - absolutely ******* idiotic assumptions made to yield stats for characters that are either featless, have feats that are just unimpressive, or already have good feats but people want to buff them anyway.

I just can't believe this shit.
 
Power Rangers Mega Force was the most powerful incarnation of the team right?

Even they had trouble with random robot mooks that came up in hordes of like 12. Does this mean continent-busting mooks?
 
We do not powerscale fodder to the main characters, because that's what they are, fodder. They are only meant to pose a challenge to the heroes and be nothing else, unless you honestly want to powerscale basic Shadow Heartless from Sora.
 
Regardless, Tommy isn't island, planet, large planet or galaxy level. Neither are Jason or any other PR with a page here. All these pages need to be revised.
 
Iustitia Prime said:
SpecN said:
Welcome to NarutoForums Logic, Prime.
Click to expand...
It's unreal. Half the time I'm in awe of the dedication guys there have to quantifying things with physics, math and equations I could never hope to understand, and the other half of the time I'm dumbfounded by the - and I'm using mild language here - absolutely ******* idiotic assumptions made to yield stats for characters that are either featless, have feats that are just unimpressive, or already have good feats but people want to buff them anyway.
I just can't believe this shit.
Click to expand...
Real talk? Even the math is quite dubious. Well, for most DC calcs anyway (And I mean MOST.). Don't even get me started on it.
 
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