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PreTimeskip Bleach Speed

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LordAizenSama

VS Battles
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Ok, so for those that don't know, Currently Bleachs pretimeskip speed is rated at mach 29 for all relevant/high level characters of that time, even though they all speedblitz eachother endlessly over and over. Now, over the timeskip we get much better showing for speed, and powerscaling to that may break that "Mach 29" cloud that hangs over the pre time skip.

Now the focus will be on Shunsui and how hes rated post time skip. Shunsui is powerscaled to Lille in terms of speed, so thats MHS+. Now we see no training or reference of it from anyone besides Hitsugaya and Renji, it's extremely likely Shunsui didn't increase his power at all.

Now before you say "well absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence", Aizen brought this up back in SoulSociety a long time ago, about the limits of a Shinigami's strength , and he made it quite clear that the only way to bypass the limit once you reach it, was hollowfication. and it wasn't exaggeration or anything, because this was his whole reason for leaving Soul Society to begin with, to bypass his own limits. Now Shunsui was a senior captain amongst the Gotei 13, and the Current Captain Commander. Considering his position as one of the strongest and most senior of captains, being a captain for at least 210 years back,as 110 years before pretimeskip Shunsui mentions himself, Ukitake yamamoto and Unohana being captains for over 100 years prior, He is extremely likely to have reached his limit.

As for how Shunsui is powerscaled to Aizen and a few other pretimeskip characters,there are a few ways. Stark was comparable To Shunsui, with stark possibly a little faster, and Aizen is obviously above Starrk. now The other way he scales is he blitz's four captains including shunsui at once. and even though Shunsui was battle worn, He could still keep up with a fresh stark.

and before people bring up the gin mach 500 bankai, I believe it would be discarded in this case for a unquantifyable amount faster, and should just be put at MHS+ attack speed. it's no different to other series saying they can move at supersonic speeds, then we have feats of them moving at hypersonic or above feats.

This would also fix some current alive characters, who according to this profile have high hypersonic stats going up against MHS+ opponents..

This upgrade would affect the following Characters

Aizen and subsequent forms

Dangai Ichigo

Stark

Gin Ichimaru

Yoruichi

isshin Kurosaki

Urahara Kisuke

Remember, just because pre time skip bleach didn't have the feats to back up these speeds, doesn't mean that they weren't capable of it, and that this should be discarded because of such reasoning. In fact, isn't the lack of feats the reason for powerscaling in the first place?
 
Well it makes sense logically, speedblitz is the most common thing in bleach like DBZ. And no way Shunsui is now MHS+ magically from hypersonic in part 1. They have the same speed but there was no feats. However to put them at a lower speed in part 1 woud imply that they receieved power up, which is not the case They always had this speed as we're not aware of any power up

So I agree with the speed increase. Before hax was introduced speedblitzing was the most common thing in bleach. So I think speed upgrade is due
 
Not to mention their current stats has retconned whatever their previous stats were, so it's no point keeping their old self to the slow speed
 
Didn't you already make this thread?

Anyway, I think that you're taking Aizen's words too seriously. There may be limits to the overall power some Shinigami are capable of achieving (which is why powerscaling in Bleach is faulty most times) but that doesn't necessarily mean that someone can't train and become faster, especially since Flash Step is a speed technique.

And Gin's Bankai can't be ignored in this case. It was literally the fastest thing pretimeskip seen in Bleach and no one could tell that it wasn't really mach 500, even transcended Aizen. Powerscaling wouldn't work in this case because of that.
 
you are right, I made it before but it got completely derailed, and i brought up this point far 2 late inbetween a mass of walls of text and messages.

his whole plan hindered on the fact there are limits to shinigami strength. Why would we doubt someone as smart as Aizen, who had planned it for 100 years at least in advance, be wrong. it's his literal reason for leaving soul society, you'd be arguing with the plot.

and as for the picture, it says movement, not restricted to flashstep. not that it really matters because they both correlate anyway. would be silly to think their normal movement speed is faster than shunpo.


Gin's bankai can be ignored, while he did hit Aizen who had his guard down (obviously gin held his sword, his only weakness, no homo) and a sneak attack

for example, we don't take yamamoto's claim of 15 million degrees seriously as its absurd

or candice with her building level 5 gigajoules claim as it's way to low

in this Case Gin would be the same, obviously the author doesn't draw these to be scaleable. and feats>statements accordingly
 
Post time skip Shunsui who is MHS+ via scaling to Lille (his profile needs updating to reflect that, the jugram description is outdated)
 
I don't remember what exactly we got for the Elite Sternritter/Royal Guard, but it was certainly MHS+ yes
 
Because i'm tired of having to deal with this matter every now and then listen what we're going to do, you guys are going to find as many speed feats from pre time skip bleach as possible and i'm going to calc them.

Ok?
 
look, I know you don't like powerscaling, but it is acceptable here. explained in the OP, if you can give me a good reason why it isn't acceptable, and a reason that i didn't already sought out in the OP, ill concede.
 
Well we already had a thread about the same thing and it went nowhere, that's why i would prefer calcs rather than powerscaling people to their future selfs.
 
^^Well if the past self are not upgraded that would be a contradiction since they didn't receive any significant powerup. And this wiki is based on logic and logically their past selves should be at least near in speed, regardless of the feats. You can explain the lack of feats but not the bump in speed for no reason.

Or do you have a reason why they got faster? Author's wish isn't good enough imo since Bleach is not a gag manga
 
you mean my thread? or you mean that Hokage thread about mach 600 ichigo,anyway this particuluar point i used waaaay to late in that last one, and it got lost in the tidal wave of text. nobody ever put fourth a argument for this
 
Faisal Shourov said:
^^Well if the past self are not upgraded that would be a contradiction since they didn't receive any significant powerup. And this wiki is based on logic and logically their past selves should be at least near in speed, regardless of the feats. You can explain the lack of feats but not the bump in speed for no reason.
Or do you have a reason why they got faster? Author's wish isn't good enough imo since Bleach is not a gag manga
Actually they have a good reason to get faster.It's an unwritten rule that verses get more powerful as the story progresses.

Anyway i won't discuss this further ,i suggest you ask the rest of the staff for input and if they agree with what you are saying then i'm fine with it.
 
Faisal Shourov

Didn't Renji get significantly more powerful in 17 months in order to fight against Aizen?

Whose to say that everyone else didn't do the same? This is why the powerscaling doesn't seem reliable in my opinion.
 
^ if you read the OP, I mention why that can't be the case

also to that point bleach had a 100 year timeskip between aizen leaving and present pre timeskip, and it didn't make anyone stronger.
 
Well the unwritten rule is not really a good explanation. And there must be a logical explanation as to how they got massively faster within 2 years without any notable training or power upgrades.

I will wait for other stuff members as well...
 
I'm surprised that people are actually saying that Shunsui's actually gonna get over a hundred times faster after just 2 years...

If he's stayed at mach 29 for the whole of his life of what 1000 years he shouldn:'t get that much faster after just two years...

Now regarding the thread I'll have to properly look at everything before giving my opinion on it....
 
also @Non-Bias renji is a pretty special plot case for his training so yeah. although i did mention it in the OP.

EDIT: i thought u meant the royal guard training. nevermind. But renji didn't get notably any stronger in them 17 months either.
 
Elite Sternritters are MHS+? The only one with a MHS+ feat was Bazz b for catching Ichigo off guard but that was when Ichigo wasn't even focused on anyone but Yhwach and Bazz B"s attack got deflected by a MHS Renji pretty easily.
 
You can read the details here and before this gets derailed into talking about their speed amongst other things, id like this thread to stay on topic to avoid having the same fate as the last one, thanks.
 
Non-Bias said:
Faisal Shourov
Didn't Renji get significantly more powerful in 17 months in order to fight against Aizen?

Whose to say that everyone else didn't do the same? This is why the powerscaling doesn't seem reliable in my opinion.
Renji is a vice captain who has potential for growth, Im mainly talking about shunsui who's over 1000 years old and has been a captain for a long time. I really don't see an established captain getting 100 times faster in 2 years when not much happened in 1000 years.

And Shunsui not being as strong in the past would be a contradiction since he got no powerup and I really doubt he had any reason to train like Renji. Shunsui said Toshiro would become as strong as him in 100 years or so IIRC, so 2 years is nothing really
 
It seems like random circular power scaling here.The Zero division got taken out by the elites but what even made them MHS+ scaling from ichibe who ranks above them or do they have MHS+ feats I'm not aware of here?
 
Shunsui being 100x faster than base aizen makes no sense. Scale shunsui post timeskip to aizen pre time skip.
 
I haven't read Bleach, but from what I know they blitz eachother a lot and somehow their all still Mach 29 which is rather weird. So I support this I guess.
 
Take a look at this.


High Hypersonic (Mach 25-50)


High Hypersonic+ (Mach 50-100)


Massively Hypersonic (Mach 100-1000)


Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1000-8810.2)


^ Do you see the problem with this? There's a big gap between the speed that's safely used because of the lack of actual speed feats and the one being suggested via powerscaling. Furthermore powerscaling the Espada to Quincy is very inaccurate and I'll explain why.


First off, Gin's Bankai simply can't be ignored here because he had a Bankai that focuses on its speed in order to execute its true power. He had an on panel statement that said it was Mach 500, which wasn't unbelievable because of the increase in power a Bankai supplies its users. That means that Gin's Bankai was in the middle of MHS. However, Gin lied about the the actual speed of his Bankai to an unknown degree which means that it could be anywhere between mach 100 - mach 400, or even less. I've said this before to Hokagevox, but trying to figure out all of this is entering the realm of assumptions. Use the safe number in order to avoid using all those assumptions.


I'd like to also point out that Bleach achieved lightning timer characters not so long ago, which is regarded as an important speed feat for most series when it comes to speed. Said Lightning timer characters were the Quincy, who were vastly superior to the Espada as seen in the manga.


(For example, Base As Nodt nearly killed Byakuya who could have easily killed Zommari if he didn't hold Rukia hostage. Shunsui lost his eye to Robert and Starrk could only hurt him seriously once he was distracted.)


Because of that, no powerscaling can be applied to them (or rather Starrk) even if you powerscale a weaker version of the character they fought.


At best you could argue that they are at the highest part of HHS+. I wouldn't go any higher though personally unless there's more things I'm not considering.


Aizen being 100x slower than Shunsui isn't a real argument due to Aizen always fighting with his Shikai's ability. Gin may have said that Aizen kept the Espada in check due to how powerful he was, but even Aizen made it a point to say that he relies heavily on his Shikai ability in order to prosper in fights. Therefore there's no real way to determine most of his actual stats (including speed) until he fought against characters who wasn't under his thrall. Even when he blitz Shunsui and everyone else, they had to be distracted in order for him to pull it off.


Actually, the best way to determine all of this is to gather all the speed feats that happened pretimeskip and calculate them like Kkapoios said in order to avoid random powerscaling in my opinion. But I doubt anyone is going to do that lol.
 
I can't say I really like Bleach at all, but yeah mach 29s blitzing each other that often doesn't seem right.
 
"There's a big gap between the speed that's safely used because of the lack of actual speed feats and the one being suggested via powerscaling. "

Lack of evidence is a reason for powerscaling, not against it. Also There is also a big gap between the group of people who had not gotten stronger, or done any training over the timeskip, or did but did it offscreen and not got stronger, yet somehow got so much faster, according to this.



I also explained why Gin's Bankai can be ignored, for the same reasons we ignore yamamoto's bankai which focuses on 15 million degrees, or Candices 5 gigajoule building level claim. it would simply be discarded in this sense.

although this is pointless i may aswell add this point, gin said he lied to Aizen, and not to Ichigo who he said it's mach 500.


"Aizen being 100x slower than Shunsui isn't a real argument due to Aizen always fighting with his Shikai's ability. "

it is a real argument, unless you think base shunsui's power is over Aizens.which would be funny, I don't think you will find much support on that. not to mention he dodged Shunsui's sneak attacks while chatting to hitsugaya casually.

there is also the Starrk>=Shunsui (also dodged Shunsui's attack while distracted) and Aizen>Starrk.


but when Aizen blitz'd shunsui KS was not active Shunsui was distracted by hitsugaya, ok, but if he was 100x faster he could practically close his eyes, spin around, do handstands, and still react to him in time in that case. keep in mind Aizen had the time to blitz soi fon shinji and hitsugaya at the same time. you can't just palm off Aizen's stats because of his Ability, that's just wrong.
 
CHILLVIBEZZ said:
WestWood7 said:
Gin lied to Aizen, not to Ichigo, his Shikai is Mach 500
He lied about his bankai he even told Aizen with the Ichigo fight flashback "it doesn't extent as long as I said nor does it extent as fast as I said" -https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3oReXfVBUXo
This is the anime.

There is no flashback in the manga, Gin says to Aizen 'I told you about my bankai a long time ago', he wasn't reffering to what he said to Ichigo
 
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