Infinite Speed: Voids and Consistency

Here we go again. But this does need be figured out. Last time around we left the qualifications for the Infinite Speed ratings via Void feats in murky waters, with some questionable and even paradoxical reasoning. Brought up again here.

As is, we usually accept Infinite Speed for being born in or primarily inhabiting a timeless void, yet do not accept infinite speed for temporarily existing in one.

But temporarily or any length of time doesn't work if the void has no time. Any time spent there would pass instantly, and thus it would not matter if it is one's "natural habitat" or not. To quote Dino Ranger Black,

"I believe everyone here is still missing the big issue in the room and that is the fact that there still isn't a proper way to determine the Infinite speed. Because so far, the only argument against Super Dimentio and his speed feat is the fact the user does not exist within the void or time-space to begin with, which was not notified in this speed page. Several characters in this wiki such as Time Eater (Sonic) and Death (Discworld) does not originate from it and yet they still receieve the rating for the same exact reasons that applies to SD and yet this is the only factor for downgrade. I'm perfectly fine for the downgrade if the reasons are established but the fact it's not nor revised makes the acceptance completely selective and used against certian characters of choice.

Reviewing the speed page and note, in order to to qualifiy for the speed, one must be able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis. The Tribe of the Ancients and Darkness can freely exist outside universes. They created Flipside and Flopside, realms between universes, for beings below them to be able to travel between them and they created the Pure Heart to counter the Chaos Heart. Count Bleck is a member of the latter and SD should be superior to him and logically can survive The Void and can also recreate them. Speaking of which, The Void itself is omnipresent with nothingness and completely destroy time, space, and just anything that exists. We clearly see this with the aftermath of Sammer's Kingdom. All this clearly fits the bill and we just seem to ignore it over an unofficial rule we have yet to established. Not to mention this will affect other character within the same Speed tier."

Similarly, I express my thoughts, also taken from the same thread.

"I'll be 100% real with y'all right now. Infinite Speed for existing outside of time, while it may make sense logically, isn't really something that fiction acknowledges. Just because something is able to exist in, live in, or be born into a timeless realm doesn't mean that said timelessness carries over to a realm with time.

The only characters that come to mind that are legit infinite speed without trying to reach logically are Zoom and Dormammu. I am sure there are others, but just because someone comes from the Dark Area (Digimon) or the Void (many fictions) doesn't mean that they can move at infinite speed. If other characters that have never shown any inkling of infinite speed can move with and comprehend said characters WITHOUT the character CISing his way into being seen or comprehensible, then that character should NOT be infinite speed if all other logic points to the lack of infinite speed.

Take the Spirit Beast. It tunneled through a universe and destroyed portions of it, leaving a void without time or space. Narratively, the Beast has a timer on when it will finish the tunnel and arrive in the real world. If the Beast left time to inhabit a timeless realm of its own creation, there should be no timer, however. It would be in the real world instantly. Similarly, the World Guardia is capable of interacting with and containing the Beast in the Spirit World, yet has never shown any hint of infinite speed.

If the character hasn't shown an indicator of being able to achieve infinite speed outside of a timeless realm, that character shouldn't have infinite speed, imo. This solves the "natural habitat" or "most of their lives" issue and cuts out some beings who really haven't displayed the ability to move at such absurd speeds."

So I will propose this: We take a more strict approach the infinite speed in regard to voids. A character should only receive infinite speed if it is mentioned or backed up by other feats or statements. For characters who were spawned in a timeless void but then show no sign of retaining such speeds, in either scaling or narrative, they should not have this speed rating.

Objection: "This will make infinite speed far more exclusive and hard to reach. This is too demanding of the fiction."

And yet we demand exceptional evidence for Lightspeed feats, Mass-Energy conversion feats, black hole feats, among others. We have higher standards for lightspeed than we do infinite and immeasurable speed, despite the latter two being infinitely faster than a light dodging feat (and literally everything else, too).

Even if we don't go with my suggestion, we do need a well defined criteria that doesn't allow for constant revision threads and opinion. It has been long enough for us to see that this is too inconsistent to treat as case-by-case in the way we have.

@Assalt

Ant advised if a thread like this were to be made, it should be Staff-Only. He stated so here

@Bluetrekking

And Ryukama said he wouldn't make a staff only thread, even for this. Unless a problem arises that is caused by normal users (we have had problems in the past but it has been staff-caused) I see no reason to lock this behind an authority wall.

What of a character who is able to bypass time stop through speed alone? That's been counted as justification for infinite before, would it still be now? Would all the characters who have that rating either have a speed scaled to them or would they become unknown?

Just going to say this will probably restrict Infinite speed to literally no one.

Literally, I don't know a single verse that specifies the criteria like we do.

I mean, some characters have statements of infinite speed, but those are probably about it.

@Everlasting

Zoom and Dormammu off the top of my head. Zoom is directly stated to be able to move at any speed he pleases due to his detachment from normal time. Dormammu exists in a timeless realm and when time is introduced he is actively affected by it as a major plot point.

Also I would rather nearly no one have this than tons of people have it. It would be like if anything with a "beyond space" statement instantly shot up to 1-A. We are very strict about AP, yet extremely lenient handing out 2 out of the 3 absolute highest speed ratings.

Or maybe we just consider Void feats valid, while noting that if it contradicts the rest of the verse's speed feats (tl;dr: it is an outlier) and is a PIS, it shouldn't be used. There.

Kepekley23 said:

Or maybe we just consider Void feats valid, while noting that if it contradicts the rest of the verse's speed feats (tl;dr: it is an outlier) and is a PIS, it shouldn't be used. There.

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As pretty much every current verse does indeed depict.

I am perfectly fine with someone being infinite via being timeless if they actually show qualities of being timeless (i.e. moving at any speed they choose, ignoring time stop due to speed, etc.).

From what I can tell, characters with this always seem to either be speedsters or tier 2+. It often doesn't seem too outlierish. Stuff like the Flash and Dragon ball being really MFTL isn't acknowledged by the fiction either, but still works. I don't see why this is too different.

What about a verse like Undertale, they have only 3 infinite speed feats (per each of the characters that are infinite). But they aren't contradicted by anything.

Yeah.

This seems legit.

ByAsura said:

What about a verse like Undertale, they have only 3 infinite speed feats (per each of the characters that are infinite). But they aren't contradicted by anything.

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If they are never contradicted by logic or narrative then there isn't a problem. The problem here is people like the Digimon, Solaris, and more, that are supposedly infinite yet are fought within time, narratively work within time, and fight beings that previously have zero hint of infinite speed.

Ok.

Being honest, I think being too strict about our Infinite speed ratings IS the problem.

Of course we shouldnt make it just so that everyone and their mother can just hop on the infinite speed train, but we shouldnt be restricting it to like 2 people at best out of everyone else. Im sure there's a middle ground for this we can agree on. Keps suggestion looks very good.

We're against using authorial intent to determine feats. So the "well, the author didn't mean that as a speed feat so we shouldn't either" is incorrect here. Feats > word of the author > intent of the author = word and intent of the reader.

If this argument is "fiction doesn't really pay attention", I'm against it. Sorry.

"Also I would rather nearly no one have this than tons of people have it. It would be like if anything with a "beyond space" statement instantly shot up to 1-A. We are very strict about AP, yet extremely lenient handing out 2 out of the 3 absolute highest speed ratings."

@Assaltwaffle Honestly, after that last thread, I agree with you. It seems like we just upgrade and downgrade the highest known speed related feats in how we see fit as many characters have similar related feats but rated differently for selective reasons.

@Kep

If it defies everything in the story and logic for someone to have infinite speed, why exactly do we want to hand it out? We aren't giving out 1-A if someone says they are "beyond space."

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Being beyond space isn't a 1-A feat, though, period.

Although I do agree that being affected by time-stop would void the feat.

Basically, we evoke the Law of Conservation of Feats. The feats of an isolated fiction shall remain constant. If other feats contradict it, and consistently so, it is an outlier.

Assaltwaffle said:

If they are never contradicted by logic or narrative then there isn't a problem. The problem here is people like the Digimon, Solaris, and more, that are supposedly infinite yet are fought within time, narratively work within time, and fight beings that previously have zero hint of infinite speed.

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I mean, theres a 1A with time stop on this site, yet he hasn't been downgraded from 1A. This is a contradiction of logic, but because of everything else its accepted. Technically, 1A's shouldn't even experience change due to being entirely beyond the concepts of dimension and time, yet many still do. Idk about Digimon, but with the solaris example everyone is in the same atemporal state, acting as an equalizing factor of sorts. Infinities can still differ from one another, and this would be one such instance. If one were to do this, how are 1As doing things to be explained?

If I were to agree on one thing it would be the leniency of Immeasurable speed.

This is doing too much. I agree with Ever.

The Everlasting said:

Being beyond space isn't a 1-A feat, though, period.

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How is it not? Taken right from our definition of 1-A:

"Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained."

Dimensions are space. Being absolutely above all spatial dimensions (space) is 1-A.

Plainly "beyond space" doesn't automatically translate to "beyond all spatial dimensions". They're different things.

Also, your examples of people who would still fit Infinite speed under your criteria still wouldn't fit it as far as I can tell.

That is taking an extremely vague statement and blowing it out of its foundations, though.

Conventional space is 3-D, so "beyond space" can simply mean you transcend three-dimensional space.

Its gotta be established that its beyond the concept of space. Often, when characters are just stated to be beyond space or time, they clearly aren't superior to the concept, which is what ever was referring to. If every statement like that was taken at face value, a lot of tier 2s would be 1A.

Depends on the context. There are characters who can be stated to be above space and time, and it's only in reference to 3-D space. "Being beyond space" would be a vague statement that I wouldn't imagine being compared to all space, all dimensions, etc.

@Ever

Being beyond spatial dimensions is being beyond space. Space is spatial dimensions in regards to dimentionality; it is the same thing.

I don't see how those two don't fit under a more strict rule set.

As Kep said, you're making a very vague statement and taking it to the maximum possible interpretation.

What about MCU Dormammu makes him Infinite besides the Dark Dimension lacking time (Mind you, Doctor Strange can defend against his attacks and he can be bound by a time loop)?

Kepekley23 said:

Or maybe we just consider Void feats valid, while noting that if it contradicts the rest of the verse's speed feats (tl;dr: it is an outlier) and is a PIS, it shouldn't be used. There.

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This. It ain't hard at all.

I also agree with Ever and the others. Also the analogy with "Beyond space" being 1-A is ridiculous.

It would work if being beyond time gave everyone Irrelevant speed.

It doesn't.

It only gives you at most Infinite speed, on its own.

@Matt

What verse that has an infinite speed rating via voids is said infinite speed not an outlier?

A lot. Seeing as almost all involve Tier 2 characters.

Assaltwaffle said:

@Matt

What verse that has an infinite speed rating via voids is said infinite speed not an outlier?

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Any sort of verse with a tier 2 set up as omnipotent would fit the bill.

Kepekley23 said:

A lot. Seeing as almost all involve Tier 2 characters.

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Being tier 2 =/= being infinite, and can you give a legit example, not "a lot?"

@Assaltwaffle

Tons....or so they claimed. Solaris, Death, Super Dimentio, Time Eater, a crud ton of Digimon, the list goes on.....according to the threads for them.

I didn't say that.

In verses where the characters are Tier 2 and thus 4-D, infinite feats are to be expected.

@Matt

Aren't there characters who are beyond space but are only Tier 2-B to 1-C at most? Forgive me but I have a hard time determining characters being around Tier 1.

@DRB

According to the threads, sure, even though we had direct issues with Solaris.