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Randall Flagg vs. Hatchworth

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Jinsye

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I remember this was a debate in strongest 8-C but it died.

So Imma revive it. I barely know anything about either verses so this might be a stomp, IDK.

Speed Equalized, both 8-C

Who wins?

Hatchworth: 0

Randall Flagg: 1

Hatchy
Randall Flagg Lee Bermejo art
 
"Stop breathing" won't work, obviously.

But that doesn't matter, since he actually does have magic and telepathy that can be used on machines. I'll provide quotes later when I'm not busy with other things.

I'm pretty sure last time this came up, it was said that Hatch could just bring his past and future selves in if his current self was killed or transmutated or whatever, but nobody posted any proof of that being the case. If he can do that, then the match is just Flagg one-shotting him countless times until the Walkin' Dude finally gets bored and self-BFRs. If not, then Flagg either shuts him down or seizes control of him and that's the end of it.
 
Because up until now the song wasnt uploaded anywhere. Now it is.

Still wanna see how Randall counters the Broadway Force Hatch leads with, or Hatch growing to the size of the moon, or erasing him from existence, or summoning Commander Cosmo or Cosmica or the Ghost Grinder which Randall has no answer for
 
As an off-topic note, just listened to SPG.

Holy crap they sound good.
 
Ah nice, their new stuff is really good


lol what am i saying all their stuff is really good :P
 
That's the point where I would normally suggest a good SPG song, but the problem is that all of them are really good, so I can't choose.
 
Bookmarking, but we should probably stop derailing now.
 
Anyway, yeah, it seems Randall needs a way to counter Broadway Force if he wants to win this, and if Hatchworth is allowed to use summons, Flagg is kind of screwed.
 
The band is pretty good, not gonna lie.

Hang on, though.

Felt the need for repair, or just somewhere,
to regroup your soul, get things under control

I know a place where we could go

Just follow me into a blue portal''

~ Blue Portals​
I've been there before, a thousand times a day
Beautiful, ghostly, Blue Portals

Strangely, corroding, my whole world

Open up the Blue Portal

If you don't want to waste, your dreams on sleep

Then come on help me break, the fabric of reality

Go ahead walk on through, that blue membrane

Beautiful, ghostly, Blue Portals

Strangely, corroding, my whole world

Hey now, there's no need to be afraid,

I'll have you back yesterday

Didn't you wonder, why there are infinite yous,

didn't I say it'd be okay''

~ Blue Portals agai​
All this shows is that the blue core inside him has an alternate dimension in it, and that he can use it to send himself/others back in time and (maybe) repair himself if necessary. It doesn't say anything about being linked to his past/future selves in a way that makes him aware of their physical status, or them having any way of knowing that his present self has had anything done to him. Or having any way to recover from being killed or transmuted.
 
Anyway, Hatch needs to speak in order to start up his Broadway Force. Flagg can assume control of machines without speaking.

The black stone disappeared into his clenched fist again. And when the fist opened, Lloyd's wondering eyes beheld a flat silver key with an ornate grip lying on the stranger's palm.
"My—dear—God!" Lloyd croaked.

"You like that?" the dark man asked, pleased. "I learned that trick from a massage parlor honey in Secaucus, New Jersey, Lloyd. Secaucus, home of the world's greatest pig farms."

He bent and seated the key in the lock of Lloyd's cell. And that was strange, because as well as his memory served him (which right now was not very well), these cells had no keyways, because they were all opened and shut electronically. But he had no doubt that the silver key would work.

Just as it rattled home, Flagg stopped and looked at Lloyd, grinning slyly, and Lloyd felt despair wash over him again. It was all just a trick.''

~ The Stand​
"Now you aren't very bright," Flagg said, "but you are the first. And I have the feeling you might be very loyal. You and I, Lloyd, we're going to go far. It's a good time for people like us. Everything is starting up for us. All I need is your word."
"W-word?"

"That we're going to stick together, you and me. No denials. No falling asleep on guard duty. There will be others very soon—they're on their way west already—but for now, there's just us. I'll give you the key if you give me your promise."

"I ... promise," Lloyd said, and the words seemed to hang in the air, vibrating strangely. He listened to that vibration, his head cocked to one side, and he could almost see those two words, glowing as darkly as the aurora borealis reflected in a dead man's eye.

Then he forgot about them as the tumblers made their half-turns inside the lockbox. The next moment the lockbox fell at Flagg's feet, tendrils of smoke seeping from it.

"You're free, Lloyd. Come on out."

Unbelieving, Lloyd touched the bars hesitantly, as if they might burn him; and indeed, they did seem warm. But when he pushed, the door slid back easily and soundlessly. He stared at his savior, those burning eyes.

Something was placed in his hand. The key.

"It's yours now, Lloyd."''

~ The Stand​
He can psychically seize control of several at once. Here's him manipulating hundreds of speakers in order to order someone around:

She was surrounded by poles, steel poles like sentries, each of them five feet high, each bearing a matched set of drive-in speakers. There was gravel underfoot, but grass and dandelions were growing up through it. She guessed the Holiday Twin hadn't been doing much business since the middle of June or so. You could say that it had been kind of a dead summer for the entertainment biz.
"Why am I here?" she whispered.

It was only talking aloud, talking to herself; she expected no answer. So when she was answered, a shriek of terror pealed from her throat.

All the speakers fell off the speaker poles at once and onto the weed-strewn gravel. The sound they made was a huge, amplified CHUNK!— the sound of a dead body striking gravel.

"NADINE," the speakers blared, and it was his voice, and how she shrieked then! Her hands flew to her head, her palms clapped themselves over her ears, but it was all the speakers at once and there was no hiding from that giant voice, which was full of fearful hilarity and dreadful comic lust.

"NADINE, NADINE, OH HOW I LOVE TO LOVE NADINE, MY PET, MY PRETTY—"

"Stop it!" she shrieked back, straining her vocal cords with the force of her cry, and still her voice was so small compared with that giant's bellow. And yet, for a moment the voice did stop. There was silence. The fallen speakers looked up at her from the gravel like the rugose eyes of giant insects.

Nadine's hands slowly came down from her ears.

You've gone insane, she comforted herself. That's all it is. The strain of waiting... and Harold's games ... finally planting the explosive ... all of it has finally driven you over the edge, dear, and you've gone crazy. It's probably better this way.

But she hadn't gone crazy, and she knew it.

This was far worse than being crazy.

As if to prove this, the speakers now boomed out in the stern yet almost prissy voice of a principal reprimanding the student body over the high school intercom for some prank they had all played together. "NADINE. THEY KNOW."

"They know," she parroted. She wasn't sure who they were, or what they knew, but she was quite sure it was inevitable.

"YOU'VE BEEN STUPID. GOD MAY LOVE STUPIDITY; I DO NOT."

The words crackled and rolled away into the late afternoon. Her clothes clung soddenly to her skin, her hair lay lankly against her pallid cheeks, and she began to shiver.

Stupid, she thought. Stupid, stupid. I know what that word means. I think. I think it means death.

"THEY KNOW EVERYTHING ... EXCEPT THE SHOEBOX. THE DYNAMITE. "

Speakers. Speakers everywhere, staring up at her from the white gravel, peeking at her from clusters of dandelions closed against the rain.

"GO TO SUNRISE AMPHITHEATER. STAY THERE. UNTIL TOMORROW NIGHT. UNTIL THEY MEET. AND THEN YOU AND HAROLD MAY COME. COME TO ME."''

~ The Stand​
Now she was in the alley the cars drove through to get into the drive-in and the ticket stand, looking like a small toll-booth, was just ahead of her. She was going to get out. She was going to get away. Her mouth softened in gratitude.
Behind her, hundreds of speakers blared into life all at once, and now the voice was singing, a horrid, tuneless singing: "I'LL BE SEEING YOU ... IN ALL THE OLD FAMILIAR PLACES... THAT THIS HEART OF MINE EMBRACES ... ALL DAY THROOOOO ... "

Nadine screamed in her newly cracked voice.

Huge, monstrous laughter came then, a dark and sterile cackling which seemed to fill the earth.

"DO WELL, NADINE," the voice boomed. "DO WELL, MY FANCY, MY DEAR ONE."

Then she gained the road and fled back toward Boulder at the Vespa's top speed, leaving the disembodied voice and staring speakers behind ... but carrying them with her in her heart, for then, for always.''

~ The Stand​
These speakers were also dead, btw. The only location with running power in The Stand was the city of Las Vegas, and Nadine wasn't there when this happened.

The act of him so much as speaking can cause circuits to blow out when he's not restraining himself:

He had sat on a hundred different Committees of Responsibility. He had walked in demonstrations against the same dozen companies on a hundred different college campuses. He wrote the questions that most discomfited those in power when they came to lecture, but he never asked the questions himself; those power merchants might have seen his grinning, burning face as some cause for alarm and fled from the podium. Likewise he never spoke at rallies because the microphones would scream with hysterical feedback and circuits would blow. But he had written speeches for those who did speak, and on several occasions those speeches had ended in riots, overturned cars, student strike votes, and violent demonstrations.
~ The Stand​
And if that's not enough, Sheemie Ruiz, a fairly mid-tier psychic by DT standards who's decidedly not in the same league as Flagg, could use his powers to quite easily reanimate and control one of the Old Ones' robotic horses that the Crimson King's minions had scavenged for their cause.

Sheemie reanimates a mechanical horse 1 (Sheemie's Tale)
Sheemie reanimates a mechanical horse 2 (Sheemie's Tale)
So yeah, I think it's fair to say that Flagg could easily just take control of him and do whatever he wants after that. And even if another Hatchworth comes along (which, for above-mentioned reasons, I don't see happening), then he can just order the first one to attack him and then leave them to their business. Or take control of that one alongside the one he currently has under his thumb. And if that goes on infinitely, then soon enough Flagg will have dozens of Hatchworth clones at his disposal and will be able to just teleport to another city (or even another country/continent) while all the robots sort things out amongst themselves.
 
Well for one, even the art for the song shows hm interracting with alternate versions of himself without even fully going through a portal. He blatantly states that he goes through portals around 1000 times on a daily basis just for the sake of doing so. Also no, he only needs to start music for his broadway force to kick in.

The first quote you posted actually wouldnt work on Hatch as he's a steam robot powered by Blue Matter, not electricity.

The second quote doesnt even seem to apply to actually manipulating a machine...? He's just unlocking a door.

Not sure how projecting his voice through a bunch of broken speakers could translate to doing anything to Hatch in the third and fourth quotes.

Does Flagg have any actual feats of doing something like that though? You really cant say he can do something just because another person did if he has no actual feats of his own.

Still waiting to see how Flagg counters broadway force, plot manip, existence erasure, getting paradoxed, or getting punched by 8-Dimensional superman
 
And he can somehow still do that even if he's been shut down, transmuted, etc.? From what I can see, there's no evidence that he can.

First quote and second quote are literally from the same scene. It was an electronically-powered locking mechanism for a prison door, and Flagg deactivated it and caused it to unlock. The "key" (which is just a stone that's been turned into one) is only a symbolic thing. Flagg didn't actually need it. (The man he's freeing even comes to the realization that the key itself is just Flagg's way of ******* with him)

Psychically controlling multiple machines without need of a power source doesn't translate to psychically controlling one solitary machine regardless of its power source?

I just posted feats of him controlling machinery, and Sheemie, a similar but weaker psychic with nowhere near as much of a handle on his powers, can do the same. If Sheemie could psychically commandeer a robot, then Flagg should easily be capable of the same thing.

If the Broadway Force doesn't have a chance to start up, then it becomes a non-factor. And from what I remember from the last time this was done, the plot manipulation, existence erasure, etc. is tied to said Broadway Force.
 
Anyway, if it wasn't clear, I'm voting for Flagg. I already gave reasons for why.
 
I will respond to this when I get home but I have a debunk for pretty much all of your arguments
 
Unless Randall can overpower a 2-C power source, he's not shutting Hatch down. And yes, Flagg isnt transmuting time, he's transmuting one Hatchworth while another can take his place due to his time travel and paradox immunity and the canonical existence of an infinite number of Hatchworths in the SPG multiverse. This is of course assuming he leads with transmutation in the first place instead of one of his numerous other abilities that wouldnt work on Hatch but that Randall has no idea wouldnt work on him. He has a much, MUCH greater chance of not leading with the few things youre arguing than he does at leading with them. And considering two big weaknesses of Flagg are arrogance and underestimating the opponent, chances are he's not hitting Hatch with something that would actually kill him before Hatch starts his music.

O...kay? And?

Yes, that is correct, especially considering none of those machines were able to actually fight back.

Does Randall have any feats of controlling a machine that is capable of fighting his control?

Considering two big weaknesses of Flagg are arrogance and underestimating the opponent, its very likely that he wont take an outwardly silly robot with a guitar seriously, especially without knowing that he's capable of erasing him from existence if he so much as starts to play a song.

Basically, They face each other on the battlefield, Flagg questions if this is seriously the opponent he's meant to be facing while Hatch starts to play his guitar, and Flagg gets killed by the physical embodiment of death, crushed by Hatch turning into the moon, splattered by 8-Dimensional Superman, or erased from existence.
 
It isn't automatically stronger = I can use your powers to the same extent, but if you are a better mind manipulator than someone who can mind hax robots you can mind hax robots
 
She didnt mind hax a robot though, she just made an automaton horse work again by touching it. From what King posted, there are no actual mentions of mind haxxing machinery.
 
Sheemie is a dude

Sheemie was controlling the machine with his powers. You see it right in the scan that he's still psychically controlling it by the fact that it's glowing with his psychic energy, and if you really want to go into the details, it still would have been incapable of moving on its own if Sheemie had done nothing but jumpstart its circuits again. This is all but stated to be the same robotic horse that got its head sliced off by a light-stick in Wolves of the Calla.

Moreover, I haven't even gone into how Dinky Earnshaw (another psychic weaker than Flagg) mentioned how easy it was for psychics like him to actively burn out the Old Ones tech that the Warriors of the Scarlet Eye were using. And as for how Earnshaw ranks on the scale of his verse, the guy is on the same level as Ted Brautigan, who considers Sheemie's powers to be outright remarkable.

Flagg has a history of simply using his hax against people, arrogance be damned. He turned a man into a dog just for annoying him, turned three gunslinger officers into dogs when they attempted to arrest him, threatened to do the same to a few subordinates just because they were slacking off, regularly uses command-attacks against people who can't hope to defeat him anyway just because it's a fast way of taking them out, blasted Alain Johns out of a lucid dream just for attempting to rescue Roland from inside of it, and drove a man insane because he messed up one job. One of the people he mindhaxed was literally mentally handicapped, two others were children, and a third and fourth were Jake's completely unremarkable parents. Arrogance means nothing when the man's history is full of examples of him just not caring in the end. There are reasons that Roland & co. are still alive after meeting him, and in this case it's not because of his own hubris. And even then, SBA = in-character, but willing to kill, so this shouldn't have been brought up to begin with.

He's also not stupid. In fact, he's probably one of the most intelligent non-cosmics in Stephen King's mythos, and as shown quite a few times, he certainly knows the limits of his own powers. Soon as he's faced with a literal robot he has to fight, he's not going to bother with telling it to "stop breathing" or hitting it with a flash of light or making some other rookie mistake. He's going to do the natural thing and either take control of it or transmute it. Likely the former.

Flagg needing to affect Hatchworth's core in order to transmute him has plenty of logical holes, but the biggest one that I can see is...why would he need to transmute the core when transmuting the exterior would be enough to incapacitate? Even if the core stays the same, the body is unusable.

Same with "overpowering" Hatch's core in order to shut him down. On general principle, you don't need to "overpower" a machine's batteries in order to shut it off, and unless you can provide proof that he's a special case in that regard, said principle applies here as well. Even then, thanks to lack of resistance, Flagg taking control of Hatch means he can't do anything, and if he really needs to put the robot down, he can blow out his individual components just by speaking.

You still haven't provided any proof that Hatchworth's alternate selves will somehow know out of instinct (or whatever) that this particular version of him is in need of any assistance. All the song's lyrics show is that he has an alternate dimension in his core and that he can time travel, not that he can use those abilities to bring new versions of himself into his time period while he's not even functional in order to do so.

In the end, it boils down to Flagg's psionics letting him manipulate machinery as he pleases, weaker psychics easily doing the same, Hatchworth having zero resistance to such, Flagg having the mindset to go right for the good options, and Hatchworth losing in a quickdraw. That's my vote, and I'm sticking with it.
 
...

What?

A moment ago you were saying Hatchworth has a million ways to put him down.

He still does. The big reason he even loses is because Flagg is guaranteed to start with the thing that takes him out.
 
All of Hatch's abilities are tied to his broadway force which he cant access if, by what youre saying, Flagg would just do everything to him right from the start before Hatch can even try anything. So no, going by your argument he doesnt have any ways to put him down.
 
So this is a stomp because Flagg wins with 1/2 abilities that he'll use right away? That's like saying every Legends!Star Wars win is a stomp just because the SW characters mindhax right off the bat. Such a thing hardly qualifies as a stomp at all. At most, it's just a decisive victory.
 
Its a stomp because Flagg thinks and Hatch is dead in a dozen different ways, or if not dead he's prevented from using his abilities that could do anything at all in another dozen.
 
And if it weren't for Flagg's psychic powers, then he would be the one dead, in a far higher number of ways.

It's literally just "who fires first?", with Flagg being the one capable of doing so. I highly doubt that constitutes a stomp. In fact, I've seen plenty of matches added to profiles despite fitting that exact description.
 
Not really, because Flagg still has his machine controlling powers, transmutation powers, and all the other abilities you listed that arent psychic

Its not a 'who fires first', it a 'Flagg thinks and wins ten times over and Hatch cant fight back or do anything to stop him', which is a stomp. Those matches should be removed then.
 
It also doesnt help that since theyre staring 4 km apart, Hatch would have no idea where Flagg is while Flagg would know exactly where Hatch is and can casually thought snipe him from 4 km away
 
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