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Simple Dragon Ball Question

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Ryukama

Ryukama

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I'm not trying to suggest any revisions or whatnot right now. Calm down. I just have a simple question.

This scan was used to help justify Xenoverse and DB Heroes current ratings. However this is from the canon Dragon Ball Z manga. So why don't we use this regarding canon Dragon Ball?
 
But like

What does this even affect for canon DB? There's no character besides arguably peak Infinite Zamasu who can bust all timelines or hell, even multiple ones.
 
How on earth would Infinite Zamasu be able to bust all timelines but not Zeno? This idea that Infinite Zamasu is some supreme god tier in the series needs to end. God of Destruction levels and up are far more powerful than him.

Zeno's profile states that part of his rating comes from being able to destroy all of existence. The manga (which we can accept if nothing contradicts it) also states that Zeno can destroy all of existence.
 
From our own profile "Whis stated that Zen'ō could easily completely erase all of existence if he wanted to" and the manga, which we has direct involvement from Toriyama, deem as secondary canon and have agreed could be used if the main doesn't contradict it, also says Zeno could completely erase all of existence as we know it.

Infinite Zamasu consuming the entire Dragon Ball reality and surpassing Zeno based on the fact that he showed able to spread to another timeline is NLF and pure headcanon. So no it wouldn't do anything for him.
 
Infinite Zamasu was becoming 2-C because he was fusing with the Future Timeline and was going to fuse with the Main Timeline as well... but Zeno killed him.

Zeno's 2-C because he can erase all of DB existence if he wanted to like Ryu said.

So no this doesn't change Zamasu.
 
If it were to affect Zamasu, then wouldn't it effect characters like Jiren and Beerus, and those comparable to or stronger than him?
 
Zeno can only erase all of existence within a single timeline, this is pretty evident by there being a zeno for every timeline, plus he hasn't displayed anything more than the destruction of a timeline with 12 universes. Also not sure why this would even affect zamasu he never destroyed all timelines or anything, he just would have taken over another one.

Overall this has no effect on canon db.
 
There being a Zeno for every timeline does nothing at all to disprove that Zeno can destroy multiple timelines. Or else I guess Demonbane can no longer bust multiple timelines. Or any character who can destroy the entirety of the verse yet has equal/superior characters to them have to be downgraded. Perhaps Xenoverse Goku should be downgraded since there are alternate timeline versions of Goku as well.

Our own profile claims Zeno can destroy all of existence with that anime statement. The manga, which is still secondary canon and has arguably more input from Toriyama than the anime, has a statement (uncontradicted and possibly even supported by the anime) that Zeno can "completely erase all of existence as we know it".

Whis and the gang, as shown in that same arc, are fully knowledgable of the existence of alternate timelines. In an arc that's all about travelling to alternate timelines, someone being stated able to "completely erase all of existence as we know it" is far more likely to be referring to, just that, all of existence as they know it. Which would include all of the alternate timelines that the same arc this statement comes from is centered around. As opposed to just one single timeline.
 
@Ryu Hmm, you do have a point, however the erase all of existence comment is from the manga and the anime only says he can erase the entire world.

Plus we have been keeping the anime and manga separate cause while they have the same overarching plot, the details are different ie no goku absorbing ssg in base, no infinite zamasu in the manga etc.

Then again you can say well, when whis said the entire world, he really meant everything, all timelines, zeno is suppossed to be the top dog after all, meh neutral on this, fine either way, leaning more towards agreeing though.
 
I know that. However it was agreed that the manga is still canon, just that its secondary and the anime takes precendece when there are differences. To which, this statement isn't really contradicted in the anime. Nothing in the anime states or shows Zeno couldn't destroy all the timelines. And depending on interpretation, that anime statement might be in support of this idea. Our current profile explicitly supports that interpretation.
 
Ryukama said:
There being a Zeno for every timeline does nothing at all to disprove that Zeno can destroy multiple timelines. Or else I guess Demonbane can no longer bust multiple timelines. Or any character who can destroy the entirety of the verse yet has equal/superior characters to them have to be downgraded. Perhaps Xenoverse Goku should be downgraded since there are alternate timeline versions of Goku as well.
Our own profile claims Zeno can destroy all of existence with that anime statement. The manga, which is still secondary canon and has arguably more input from Toriyama than the anime, has a statement (uncontradicted and possibly even supported by the anime) that Zeno can "completely erase all of existence as we know it".

Whis and the gang, as shown in that same arc, are fully knowledgable of the existence of alternate timelines. In an arc that's all about travelling to alternate timelines, someone being stated able to "completely erase all of existence as we know it" is far more likely to be referring to, just that, all of existence as they know it. Which would include all of the alternate timelines that the same arc this statement comes from is centered around. As opposed to just one single timeline.
Click to expand...


... It actually does change something: Whenever Zeno erased something, like the universes in the ToP, everything related to that universe, even objects or being outside of it are erased 8example, the various fighter and Obuni's peadant.

Hwever, in the Black arc, when Zeno erased the timeline, Future Trunk and Mai were not erased when they travelled to the Present timeline.

That's why I think that Zeno's powers can't go beyond timelines.
 
Zeno can erase pretty much whatever he wants in whichever manner he pleases. During the Tournament of Power he primarily wanted the crappy mortals gone, so it makes sense he'd destroy the mortals and everything alongside them. Against Infinite Zamasu, Zeno just wanted to get rid of IZ himself, not everyone or everything associated with that timeline. So it makes sense those who left would survive.

Though in most likelihood it's all for plot. Obuni's locket being erased was to visiually represent that this family was erased. Trunks and Mai surviving was cause they needed a happy ending.

Either way I don't think some vague minor detail like that should immediately be used against Zeno being able to destroy multiple timelines, despite highly reliable sources explicitly saying he can.
 
Whis directly contradicts this when he's talking about the height of Zen'o's power and says he could "destroy the whole world if he wanted to," which is translated in English to mean "Multiverse". I think it's assumption to think Zen'o could destroy more than his own reality, when his power, if he really meant "World," as in all of existence would have immediately destroyed the present as well, which it didn't. This is only helped by the Mai and Trunks argument. Aside from that, the Demonbane argument is silly. You really expect me to believe one Demonbane could destroy the impossible Demonbanes it called?
 
World in Japanese does not translate to multiverse in English. All we know is that "world" has to be referring to something beyond a universe. Though what it means is up to interpretation.

However when a (while less so than the anime) canon source with more input from the original creator than the anime directly says "all of existence as we know it" I think it can be inferred that this is what "world" is meant to indicate in that scene.

You basically have the anime saying a statement that has different interpretations, however the manga with greater input from the original creator explicitly states one particular interpretation for that statement. So I think that interpretation is safe to use. Our profile apparently thinks that as well.

Trunks and Mai not getting erased alongside the timeline doesn't somehow disprove that Zeno can erase multiple timelines. Especially when Zeno can selectively choose what does and doesn't get erased. Such as Zeno not erasing the angels alongside their respective universes. That doesn't now disprove that Zeno can erase multiple universes.

What? My Demonbane point is that although there are alternate timeline versions of Demonbane, Demonbane can still destroy multiple timelines and all of existence. Again, let's downgrade Xenoverse Goku since there's a Goku for each timeline too.
 
The English dub *literally* calls it a multiverse; I genuinely think that this was their intended range as the dub crew now has official access to the original Japanese and likely can clear up meaning confusion.

And we don't use the manga as a modifier here. That is definitely cherrypicking to use one of its statements as valid when we don't with others, like Vegetto being intended to be above Beerus, etc.

And I don't see how it doesn't. He may be selective with what he was trying to destroy but in that case it was the entire multiverse which would have included Trunks and Mai by default, as what with happened to Obuni.
 
The English dub *literally* calls Goku the hope of the universe. It doesn't matter what the dub says when world does not actually translate to multiverse, and the manga with more original creator input than the anime and especially its dub calls it otherwise. Not like the multiverse even necessarily has to refer to just a timeline. A collection of timelines can also be accurately called a multiverse.

Yes we do. The manga is deemed as secondary canon and can be used when there is nothing in the anime which directly contradicts it. I think what's actually cherrypicking is using a dub with no input from the original creator at all, which Sean Schemmel admitted they can do basically whatever they want with regardless of the original intent ("muh localization!") with an objectively inaccurate translation as opposed to the manga which has the highest amount of input from the original creator.

When Zeno has explicit statements that he can erase multiple timelines, Trunks and Mai not being erased for the sake of plot when he erased one universe/timeline does not disprove the statement that he could erase multiple timelines if he wanted to. Especially when it's proven that not everything has to be erased alongside a universe when Zeno erases it.
 
The DBZ dub =/= the DBS dub. That holds a lot of assumptions in it. If we're just going to go with what the manga says, why not also upgrade Vegetto to Low 2-C? The manga and the anime don't hold the same canon, they're created via liner notes Toriyama gives Toei and Toyotaro, and the latter can ALSO do what he wishes in regard to the story.

Zen'o explicitly says "This world must disappear" when he destroys the timeline. This influence, if referring to all of existence like you say, would not have simply destroyed one timeline, but seeped through the visible hole between realities that Zamasu made, which simply disappeared when Zen'o destroyed Zamasu.

Nothing contradicts Vegetto being Low 2-C in the anime, it just doesn't confirm it. Note that I am not trying to get Vegetto upgraded, I'm merely pushing an important point.

And assuming that he *can* destroy multiple timelines when there's no evidence of it except for a translation that may or may not be entirely accurate is definitely not safe. He's never shown to destroy more than one, and even then, he didn't destroy the timeline itself, but merely its contents, as if he had, Goku and Trunks would have had nothing to go back to.
 
The point stands that when a dub is objectively inaccurate to its original Japanese, it doesn't matter what it says. World does not translate to multiverse. It doesn't matter if the dub turned it to that. Again, it's not even as if multiverse has to mean just one timeline as opposed to the collection of all of them. Also the DBS dub you're referring to is made by Funimation just like the DBZ dub, and Sean Schemmel said they can do whatever they want when regarding the DBS dub.

When did I ever say Zeno destroyed all of existence during then? He destroyed U7/one single timeline there. Not all of existence of course. He isn't stated to have destroyed all of existence when he destroyed a single universe/timeline then and is clearly shown not to.

The fact that SSB Vegito struggled against an opponent far weaker than a character Beerus is stated to be stronger than does. This site agreed long before I got here that the manga could be used when the anime doesn't go against it. SSB Vegito being stronger than Beerus is gone against in the anime.

During the Tournament of Power Zeno wanted to destroy the universes cause he wanted to kill their crappy mortals. Against Infinite Zamasu he wanted to just destroy the world itself, and didn't want to destroy Goku and the gang. In the former instance it makes sense for him to actively target all the civilians in particular and the latter for him to only be after the world itself.

But again, Trunks and Mai not getting erased doesn't somehow prove that Zeno couldn't erase multiple timelines or couldn't erase them if he wanted to, when there are explicit statements Zeno could. Especially when it's shown that not everything associated with a universe has to be erased when Zeno erases a universe.
 
Ryu, I think Trunks's statement was retconned by the fact that Time Rings are created everytime a new timeline is made, and there were only six Time Rings. Interpret that to be the size of how you like. I personally still do not see the separate universe to be as alternate space-time continua, so in my opinion, Zeno destroying all of existence would be equivalent to destroying six continua.
 
Isn't it stated that a new time ring is made every time someone creates a new timeline through time travel? The creation of time rings are meant to indicate if someone has been meddling with time. Not necessary one new time ring for every single timeline, including those not created by a person meddling. I'll drop this if I'm wrong on that. But not for stuff like "there's a Zeno for every timeline", "Trunks and Mai weren't erased" or opting to use objectively inaccurate dubs over all else.
 
How does world *not* translate to multiverse, when every single usage of it seems to imply that that is what they're talking about (The Zen'o thing, which is what I was mentioning)

And why wouldn't it, when they never include timelines in the cosmology when talking about it? Whis has never once mentioned the timelines being part of the cosmology, and actually steps on that a little in that he consistently acts like the timelines are all just part of the same continuity.

Point is that if the *timeline* itself were going to be destroyed (Trunks') the Time Ring would have ceased to be, which it didn't. Additionally, there wouldn't have been anything for Goku/Trunks to go back to. There's no explicit statements that say he can erase other timelines. Existence being thought of as anything more than just the multiverse they're in requires assumption; it's not specific enough. Furthermore, why didn't Zen'o's erasure of the "world," result in anything happening to the "Present," Universe 7? His power literally didn't cross that threshold; if it did I would be agreeing with you right now.

And assuming that he excluded those people from his range doesn't make sense either. Zen'o is childish. He doesn't distinguish between target and non-target. For all we know, he would have erased Goku and the rest too, since he didn't know them.

And where was Beerus stated to be stronger than Fusion Zamasu? If anything, it's noted that he *couldn't* erase Zamasu after he became immortal (In episode 67)
 
The word world in Japanese does not translate to the word multiverse in English. Multiverse is only one of the possible interpretations of what they meant by world. However the manga with far greater input from Toriyama than the dub uses the interpretation of all timelines.

Zeno is explicitly stated to be able to destroy anything he wants and able to destroy multiple timelines. The fact that he didn't erase Mai and Trunks when erasing Infinite Zamasu is used as some kind of proof that he can't. That being based on some idea that everything associated with a universe has to be erased alongside the universe. Even though this is shown to not be the case as angels aren't being erased with their respective universes.

Mai and Trunks not being erased alongside the timeline already isn't proof against the explicit statements that Zeno could've erased them and multiple timelines. The only way you can say it is proof is suggesting that everything associated with a universes has to be erased alongside it. But that's already disproven with the angels.

Infinite Zamasu is obviously far stronger than Fusion Zamasu. Beerus was not at all impressed when he felt Infinite Zamasu's ki. And when Shin said Jiren's energy was stronger than Infinite Zamasu's, Whis then said it was like a God of Destruction's. Zamasu only can't be killed cause of his immortality, not cause he's strong.
 
Okay so you're accusing me of "cherrypicking" the manga over a Funimation dub.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DS6hZAzaIk

"He can annihilate anything he wishes in the blink of an eye regardless of scale or complexity."

"He could elminate everything. All of reality as we know it"

^ The dub actually supports my idea even more than manga does. And Whis never said "Zeno could destroy the multiverse". That statement was fabricated and the other statements were then cherrypicked out.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
https://youtu.be/aGSt2v_froIWhis kind of explains it in this scene.
I think Trunks's statement only implies possible futures, not actual timelines being created over the smallest things. Trunks is clearly no expert on the manner, as seen in this scene.
Click to expand...
From what I know all Whis is explaining is more of just the time rings being made each time someone meddles not necessarily for every timeline regardless of meddling. Though since I'm don't recall the time ring stuff too much I'd happily concede on that if shown to be wrong.

So because Trunks didn't know who Beerus and Whis are he now knows doesn't know about time travel? Also Trunks literally said "many futures are created over the smallest things" so yeah he was implying that.
 
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