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Demigra tier revision

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SSJRyu1

SSJRyu1

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So since weve been on the topic of updating Demigra I beleive there is substantial evidence for him as 2-A or even High 2-A.


1. It is stated in Xenoverse that there are infnite posible timelines or paths. Now some argued they may not exist currently and are only possible, however we have confirmation in heroes that the possibilities are currently existing timelines when kai of time says the possibilites are overlapping becouse of demigra and that is why we have [COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.87)]Gohan, Adult Gotenks, SsjG Goku, and Gogeta all in the same place. So infinte paths/possbilities each correlating to timelines, and the possibilities themselves alreay exist as said timelines, thus infnite timelines existing confirmed.[/COLOR]


https://imgur.com/a/3UUOU


https://imgur.com/a/t135T


This further shows Demigra is effecting the multiverse to when he is going to destroy the world in heroes if there was any question on that as well like was stated earlier. Since Demigra/chamel can destroy this it would be a 2A feat instead of 2B. And reaching the real world even further makes the feat even better.


2. Now on to the High 2-A stuff


a) Demigra is beyond time and space of the multiverse.


https://imgur.com/a/A61wa


b) Mira (who scales) trancends time


https://imgur.com/a/jZmzp


c) They exist outside the flow of time


https://imgur.com/a/ga27k


d) Demigra trancends the space time of the DBH multiverse to reach the real world and try to destroy it to.


https://imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f


E) Demigra spatially trancends the others with his technique in heroes (3 spatial + 1 spatial for spatial trancendance +1 temporal would theoretically be 5D)


https://imgur.com/a/C9XQ3


f) It is stated in the DBH manga that the real world is in a seperate dimension. This is not the same as mere universes as they call universes as such, or as timelines, and you must trancend the DBH multiverse space and time to reach this place like with what Demigra did showing it is beyond an infnite 4D structure.


https://imgur.com/a/xrNRr


g) Android 16, who has doctor geroes full database and is a super computer android states he thinks the patroler is an extradimensional lifeform, which is something with extra dimesnions beyond 3 spatial and 1 temporal, so 5D or more.


https://imgur.com/a/nfKlR


So I beleive we should place Demigra either as At least 2-A, likely High 2-A or just outrgiht High 2-A personally, since he controls and trancends a multiversal+ space-time, and can even reach and destroy the real world, which is stated multiple times that the real world is in another dimension trancendant to the heroes multiverse, and differentiated from just another timeline or unvierse, and even that the pattroler is thought to be extradimensional as further evidence for higher dimensions.
 
Hey, can you mention Mira and Towa negating Chronoa's freeze technique. That would be proof of infinite speed or Time manipulation resistance.
 
Well this was for tier, but I will make a thread for speed to after. That is true, I will include that in it. But basically he has infinte speed just for his attacks crossing an infinite multiverse alone in finite time, heck in heroes the world of void is part of the timelines so just crossing a complete timeline with your attack would be infinte speed tbh, and immesurable for trancending time and space and reaching his attacks to hgiher dimensions like the real world.
 
Interesting. Seems legit. However, waiting for the staff members and others to give their input.
 
The games go above and beyond the Anime mainly because of the writers and the themes. In most Modern DB games most of the themes are on space and time which allows greater feats.
 
We should probably wait until Azathoth responds.


As for me I'm going to wait until more people respond to give my opinion.
 
Bluetrekking said:
What? Finally, some people agree with me that Demigra 2A is not outside the realm of possibility.
Click to expand...
Im not saying its not possible. Im just saying that i wish to see if anyone counters this argument to see what side i will take.
 
Im not buying High 2-A Demigra.

At least 2-B, likely 2-A seems fine in my book.

Everyone who "Trascends time and space" isnt outright 5D by deffinition.
 
I also have doubts about High 2-A. "At least 2-B likely 2-A"(what PaChi2 suggested) might be in the realm of possibility though. But I would like to see what other people think for the moment.
 
HOWEVER, if you can prove actual trascendece of time, Immesurable Demigra may be feasible.
 
1. The first set of scans show a random time patroller saying that history ca take an infinite number of paths, referring to how any number of different events cause multiple branching timelines. The second set of scans is in Japanese with no translation provided, so that would be helpful.

2a. This scan is meaningless. "Adventure beyond time and space" is such an incredibly nebulous term that it holds no real value, especially when the game is already about different timelines, possibilities, and villains who can travel outside the normal flow of time to different universes.

2b&c. This is nothing new. Mira and Towa's whole thing is being able to move outside the normal flow of time, which even then only ends up as a travel speed feat when moving between timelines, as once they enter one they move at normal speeds.

2d. This does not state he fully transcends the multiverse. It does not treat the fictional representation of the real world as completely and utterly transcendent.

2e. This statement is such a jumble that it doesn't mean anything, but even taking it at complete face value, it's 4-D.

2f. Different dimension =/= transcendent higher-dimensional world. Especially not when it's a brief mention with no other context to suggest such.

2g. "extradimensional - (jargon, science fiction) Originating outside the known physical reality of the universe."

I am currently fine with 2-B for the Heroes' incarnation of Demigra, but 2-A, or especially High 2-A, based on such vague statements is really pushing it.
 
Well there is two claims referring to an action creates a timeline. When talking to Android 16, he stated that just by talking with him all other possibilities are eliminated. [1] In DBH there is a mode called Different path mode where a timeline is created based on different outcomes [2]

In DBH, the DBH Multiverse/ world is treated like a video game compared to the Real world. It is viewed as fiction.
 
I noticed that you specifically stated heroes Demigra .. Even though Demigra's biggest amp was in Tokitoki,an there's a connection between XV & Heroes. This kinda implies 2-B XV Demigra ( w/o hax, as it should be far superior to Demigra, who in Heroes didn't have a amp when doing the Multiverse level feat )
 
1. the first set says there are infiinte possible paths or timelines. The second translates to "the possibilities are overlapping and that is why we have [COLOR=rgba(0,0,0,0.87)]Gohan, Adult Gotenks, SsjG Goku, and Gogeta all in the same place." So since the possibilitie are existing timelines it shows the paths are not simply potential but currently exist. Thus infinite existing possible timelines is 2-A.


2. a, b, c It is to show he trancends time and space and is outside of it, this is further backed by multiple other statements and showings about trancending time and space. Hell he lived in a place outside the flow of time and devoid of it for 75 million years.


2 d. It literall says he trancends the world and time and space to reach the real world, so yes, it does say he trancends the multiverse.


2 e. It clearly talks about diemsnions needing to be crossed, and it would be 5D since the heroes multiverse is already 4D and they must trancend it to reach this dimesnion, thus at least 5D.


2 f. Extradimensional means extra dimensions beyond 3 spatial 1 temporal so 5D or higher. it is literally in the name, extra as in more diemsniojnal and that is its definition. Your first one you chose is jsut vauger but means the same thing.

2. [/COLOR](jargon, science fictio) Coming from a dimension outside Einsteinia space-time.

literally the same source you used
 
@Seed

I'm pretty sure Heroes and Xenoverse aren't the same continuity. There are multiple things to suggest they aren't, and I can't seem to find any source from where it was claimed that the events of the Demigra saga in Heroes are a sequel to the events in Xenoverse.

@SSJRyu1

1. That's not what any of that means. The first says history can take an infinite number of paths, which is basically the premise for most multiverses. If the second just mentions possibilities overlapping, that has nothing to do with infinite timelines.

2a,b,c. Yes. This is all information we already knew. None of it suggests 2-A or High 2-A. This applies to a multitude of Tier 2 characters on both the lowest and highest end of the spectrum. On its own, for a character who is already Tier 2, it's nothing to write home about.

2d. "Transcended space and went to a different world" is, again, meaningless for a Tier 2 character, and the hero is not treated as a higher-dimensional entity.

2e. It doesn't say anything close to that. These are the two statements. "The dimension transfer system is operational" and "Dimensional transfer is about to begin". This is not High 2-A information. These are the type of nebulous statements made in many, many, many series on the wiki, which we ignore without any sort of context or substantial evidence. This is not the kind of stuff that bumps a character up one or two degrees of infinity.

2f. Notice the definition of "dimension" matching the subject on the dimension page.

"(science fiction, fantasy) An alternative universe or plane of existence."

It does indeed mean the same thing, but it does not mean the being is higher-dimensional unless something like this is strictly implied.
 
To add to the whole Heroes/Xenoverse thing.

1. Mira seems to be able to enter his final form at will in Heroes, while in Xenoverse he needed to absorb both Towa and Tokitoki's egg.

2. Bardock is still under Mira's control during Heroes. Regardless if it takes place before or after Xenoverse, that's impossible, as he breaks free in Heroes and then again in Xenoverse 2.
 
1. If there are infinte possible timelines, and if said possibilities are proven to currently exist as i showed there when they say the possibilites are overlapping thus exist, that would mean inifnte currently existing tiemlines.


2. trancending time and space on a multiversal scale is something important, maybe not solely making somebody high 2-A, but it does support the evidence especially on a multiversal scale like here, it is even part of the reasoning listed on chronus profile for making him high 2-A, also it would afford immesurable speed to trancend them and live in a place devoid of and outside time.


3. Actually thats incorrect in context since it is stated in manga said diffrent world is in another dimesnion and tehy differentiate it from the alternate universes or timelines. A diemsnion that requires you to trancend space and the DBH "world" aka multiverse, that emans a dimension above the 4D space time of the multiverse tehy were already in.


4. By themselves they do not prove 5D since they dont say what dimesnion, but since it is required to trancend 4D space time of the multiverse to reach said dimension as shown earlier, we now have the missing info, and it is logically 5D or more if it is a dimension that trancends a 4D mutliverse.


5. It states for the definition from said page:

"A measure of spatial extent in a particular direction, such as height, width or breadth, or depth."

aka a higher dimesnion in this case since you are trancending as it was stated, not just moving to anohter universe, which they are well aware of and refer to as universes or timelines.


Also it says "outside einsteinium space time", this is refering to the concept of 4D space time as a whole which is what eintsteinium space time encompasses, a seperate universe with 4D structure would still be an einstinium spacetime, and in the strict definition of a dimesnion outside of this 4D concept it would mean logically geometric dimensions higher than 4.
 
It is stated Demigra is dead prior to the events in heroes and he revives from his apparent destruction before going back in time to set the heroes events in motion, also they recap the events from xenvoerse and it is the same scenario prior. So we know he is likely the same guy.


Also the time pattrol functions the same way with the same backstory to across heroes online and xenoverse, all using trunks as a main, kai of time as the boss, and the pattrolers, and also they all have the time breakers like towa and mira present with the same goal of gaining kiri to power mira or causing space time distortions etc. Most minor inconsitencies that arrise can be explained by alternate timelines to.


1. Mira doesnt have his final form in heroes until just now in the trailer which we know nothing about yet, and it would be after xenvorse at this point anyway so if he came back he very well may maintain it.


2. Bardock would exist in every timeline so there is noissue there, just an alternate version, there are even multiple version from xenvoerse alone. Also heroes didnt have real story mode till after the whole bardock time breaker bardock thing endded, god missions is when story mode was introduced.
 
1. Nothing says that, though. Like, at all.

2. Chronus, to my knowledge, transcends the multiverse in that it is a lower reality compared to him. This is not remotely the case for Demigra. He can still be threatened and challenged by beings who inhabit it.

3. Again, nothing says that. We need things to actually say stuff like this.

4. Yet another thing that is not shown or stated.

5. You completely ignored the context, here. You took sci-fi jargon and then used the mathematical definition of a dimension, despite the same page providing the sci-fi jargon use of "another plane or universe". That's not how we do things for any verse.

"It is stated Demigra is dead prior to the events in heroes and he revives from his apparent destruction before going back in time to set the heroes events in motion, also they recap the events from xenvoerse and it is the same scenario prior."

Where, though? I can't find this information anywhere.
 
1. It states there are infinite paths history can take, aka infinite possible timelines. It translates to "the possibilities are overlapping" in the heroes scan I showed as reasoning for why alternate timelines like SSJG Goku, Gogeta etc were all in one place.

infinite possible timelines + the possibilities being confirmed to currently exist = infinite timelines currently existing.

2. Chronus is only stated to encompass the multiverse (2-B btw) and transcend space and time and the gods, nothing about higher dimensions is mentioned. Demigra also spread his power through the multiverse and transcended space and time with it even threatening to destroy the real world which is above the space of that and stated in another dimension, an he transcended many 4D beings as well as even the lowest god tier in heroes scales to tier 2.

3. It says he "transcended space" and entered the real world to, which trunks was shocked by, even though Demigra's power was already spread across the multiverse in DBH. Also we know he is stated many times to be beyond time and transcend that etc if there was any doubt. And then we get the info that the real world is another dimension from the manga, if it were just another universe he wouldn't need to transcend the multiverse to reach it and Trunks would not be surprised by it, and it treats the DB stories like fiction btw, just games and stories.

4. See above, it states they transcend the DBH world to reach the real one, which refers to the multiverse in terms of the dbh world. And the real one is stated to be in another dimension in manga.

5. Oh no, that's not true. It specifically talks about it being a dimension outside einsteinium space time, which is the theory about 4 dimensions, a 4D universe even outside of it would still be einsteinium space time theory, it can only refer to a outside dimension as a higher dimension beyond that in that context for it to be outside of einsteinium space time theory and still be a dimension.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Demigra

Its tough info to find but it is available.

It shows his history and under dark demon realm foundation saga which happens after xenoverse seemingly where he first appears in heroes says

"Demigra revives after his apparent destruction, and travels back 75,000,000 years to his first battle with Chronoa"

The snippet you found on his events prior apparently come from heroes manga, which explains why it doesn't show how he died since they often use the manga as a teaser. Xenoverse though has the exact same story and lead up as the manga, and explains how he dies, but no matter how you look at it he was completely destroyed and revives and regens from nothing even if you said it happened in an alternate timeline and not xenoverse.

Normally I don't use wiki's, but this one has a good reputation and very few mistakes, also it is a pretty major event that is very specific and not really something up for interpretation if he was revived or not, so I have no reason to doubt it. Also since we have used quotes from it to get info on him in the past and they have been accurate further boosts my confidence.

Its the same place the quotes for that snippet you posted earlier on the backstory, where the gohan vs demigra info came from etc.

Also the time pattrol functions the same way with the same backstory to across heroes online and xenoverse, and we already accepted online as part of xenoverse for this reasoning, all using trunks as a main guide pattroler witht eh same story, kai of time as the boss, and the patrollers function the same, and also they all have the time breakers like towa and mira present with the same goal of gaining kiri to power mira or causing space time distortions etc. Most minor inconsistencies that arise can be explained by alternate timelines to.
 
I feel, at least in my own opinion of course, that At least 2-B, possibly 2-A is probably a better solution than simply 2-A, if he really needs an upgrade at all.
 
Aeyu said:
I feel, at least in my own opinion of course, that At least 2-B, possibly 2-A is probably a better solution than simply 2-A, if he really needs an upgrade at all.
Click to expand...
Agreed. DBH can be vague and inconsistencies appear for the sake of the plot.
 
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