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Zen'o Existence Erasure

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Most if not all of the people you mentioned believes Zeno uses blasts instead of erasure, so hopefully they read the thread.

Also, the only reason why Grand Priest scales from Goku/Jiren/Angels/GoDs, is because Whis said he couldn't even get at GP's feet, which is the only reason he scales. Zeno was stated to not be a fighter, so he scales to nobody unless we get further evidence.
 
He may not be a fighter, but hes still strong as shit. If he was for any reason weaker than the gods, they wouldn't be so scared if they could just punch his head off.
 
Well Dyspo could blitz him so :^)

But, like always, we need to see feats, otherwise most of the characters should have a bunch of resistances to powers and abilities by having similar power to the person performing the resistance.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
He may not be a fighter, but hes still strong as shit. If he was for any reason weaker than the gods, they wouldn't be so scared if they could just punch his head off.
Click to expand...
Well, wouldn't that be what the Grand Priest is for? I mean, even if Zen'o is not a fighter, his attendant is one of, if the not the strongest, fighters in the Multiverse. Good luck getting past him. Shoot, good luck getting past him before Zen'o notices and decides to erase you because you're annoying him.
 
No but every seems to think Zeno himself is some untouchable being. Never implied it was because the grand priest is guarding him.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
No but every seems to think Zeno himself is some untouchable being. Never implied it was because the grand priest is guarding him.
Click to expand...
The problem, though, is that we know so very little about Zen'o, despite what he has shown. We know that he can virtually wipe out anything/anyone at anytime, that he's the King of the Multiverse, his word is law and despite his immense power, he's not a fighter.

Outside of that, we do not know his other circumstances. For all we know, Zen'o is the lynchpin of reality and if killed, he takes the entire multiverse with him. That would really put everyone behind the 8-ball. Serve him, keep him happy or everyone and everything dies. Kill him and everything/one dies.

We just don't know.
 
I think Zen'ō's profile is good the way it is right now. How he's used in debates is up for debate (no pun intended)
 
Well the GoDs not killing Zen'o is kinda like how Kage from Naruto wont suddenly just kill off the Fedual Lords who rank higher than a kage but are literally just normal people. No reason for Kage to have to follow the orders of ordinary people yes?
 
We shouldn't give abilities that aren't shown, stated, or implied, so I'm against giving Zeno that resistance.
 
Unite My Rice said:
Visually, he encompassed himself in his own erasure.
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ultimately depends on wether or not we take this as AP or Erasure.

as the basis for his durability is the fact he recieved the same energy he released.

He either as resistance to exitence erasure on a tier 2 scale, or he has durability on the same scale.
 
My biggest question is why is Zen'o considered a 2-C when all the different universes share the same timeline? Isn't Low 2-C an infinite level of power, as alluded to in the recent update to 2-C's description? You can say that the Kaioshin Realm/Hell etc all share a different time and space, but where is this shown? If all the universes exist in the same space-time, and the Kaioshin realms/etc are part of that larger universal structure, doesn't that make it only a veeeeeery high Low 2-C feat? I remember not too long ago when Zen'o was rated as being At least Low 2-C, because there's reason to assume that he's greater than Low 2-C, but where is it ever stated concretely that the Kaioshin realm, etc occupy a different space-time than the rest of the universes, as opposed to say, the World of Void, which does exist outside of the space-time continuum. I just think that it sounds like more of an assumption than a concrete reason for 2-C. It's true that he wiped Trunks' timeline. But that was only one timeline, and if the Kaioshin realms, etc have a different time and space, then why wasn't the present affected by Zen'o's Erase as well, when Fusion Zamasu was clearly having an effect on the present? All the Erasure did was remove Fusion Zamasu's presence in the present, whereas it utterly annihilated the rest of Trunks' timeline.
 
Don't know, but the main timeline is a different timeline. In Dragon ball time travel creates entirely new timelines (Which is how it was made) so that can be hand waved.
 
He didn't affect the main timeline though, just destroyed Fusion Zamasu, who receded from it.
 
My argument though is that the "Future," timeline was only an At least Low 2-C structure, though, as referenced by my above statements.
 
My above argument was related to that, though. Where is it ever stated that those realms (part of structures connected to the macrocosmic 3-D universes on the 4-D plane) use a separate space-time than the rest of the universe? The rest of the universes are already separate "realms," but yet are all bound by the same space and time, and can even be traveled to over vast distances. Furthering this is the fact that Zen'o's palace exists outside of the universes entirely, and they can clearly been seen to be basically bubble universes occupying different parts of space, but linked within the same space-time manifold, in an chaotic inflationary model. And even so, since Zen'o's attack was blind and all encompassing, if those parts of the space-time continuum were separate, why were they destroyed while the "past," (a literal different space-time continuum) remained completely unaffected? I have thought since the 2-C upgrade, which was rather quickly put in, if I might add (I remember distinctly when it was agreed that Zen'o was an At least Low 2-C being) that that tier rating is rather presumptous and not provable by any means.
 
I think we dropped the whole "different universes, same space-time" thing a while ago, as it was using double-standards, nitpicking, etc..
 
At the very least, Zeno's AP and Durability should scale to the Gods of Destruction/Jiren. Nothing that anyone can do can actually hurt or kill Zeno in anyway. So low 2-C durability with 2-C via hax and Low 2-C to possibly 2-C AP. Speed and Lifting and Striking might be ok with staying unknown, but I do think that the blast that broke/erased Trunks' Time was kind of the same thing as a God of Destruction Energy attack that Sidra tried to have used on Frieza, in the sense that it was A blast fusee with Hakai Energy. Or something. Either way, I don't think it makes sense to say that Zeno's not durable enough to survive a punch from Beerus' or the other GoDs, because:

A. That's not how DBZ works, you aren't normally far superior to a character and far weaker than them physically. What is this, Bleach?!

B. It was stated that nothing in this "World" can hurt Zeno. Which should mean he likely can't be hit by anything any GoD does to them and not be hurt by them.
 
But the different universes, same space-time thing wasn't disproven. Simply put, the reason why Zen'o was made 2-C was because of the afterlives being destroyed, but then my argument still remains. If they were separate space-time continuities destroyed by Zen'o in his blind, all-encompassing attack, why wasn't the present affected at all? I still agree with the At least Low 2-C argument because while all the other arguments might be presumptous, so is assuming that the afterlife/etc are separate from the Macrocosm when they are clearly shown to be connected to the structure of each universe, which were destroyed immediately without resistance to his attack.

Also, yes, each universe is shown as a ball of sorts, from Zen'o's point of view (His palace)

Basically, if I were able to revise him, a far more accurate rating would be At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C, because pretty much all assumptions about him are just that. His power is specifically to nuke anything up to his power level. Any specifics other than that are vague, as he treated 3-A structures the same way as he treated the entirety of Trunks' timeline, the same way he treats 3-A characters.
 
He makes good points, but essentially, existing on the same 4-D plane doesn't mean that 3-D bubbles can't exist wholly separately to one another (Chaotic Inflation).
 
Except he really doesn't. Think of a 4-D plane, like a quilt. You can drop marbles on it which are their own self-contained 3-D spaces, possibly infinite (which actually IS alluded to in various sources) or at least larger than are possible to move from physically. That doesn't automatically make each of those 3-D spaces a Low 2-C one. (Extrapolating on the visual element) Basically, assuming that they're all necessarily space-time continuums of their own is a further stretch than what I just stated above, especially since each universe is in sync with the next temporally, and time as well as space likely would function differently in an expanded model of chaotic inflation which deals with what is outlined.

Hence, why I argue for an At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C rating instead. It's simply more accurate using Occam's razor.
 
I personally think that Matthew seems to make sense. Zen'o can evidently use 2-C level attacks, and use existence erasure, as he did on Frost and the two universes during the tournament.

The complication is that Low 2-C abilities and above tend to automatically include existence erasure, since they involve affecting the entire space-time structure of lower beings.

Perhaps we should simply place a note that Zen'o has only been demonstrated to use the ability against lower rated beings, if it is a problem during versus matchup discussions?
 
I'm actually...not entirely for that, surprisingly. Like, why is it a deal for Zen'ō, when same could be said about any of the other 2-Cs, even the four gods (Pontos, Lucemon, Arceus, and Dracula)
 
@Aeyu

I think that you are overcomplicating this. It is more practical and fairminded to consider the universes as having separate continuums.

It is probably best if you drop the issue, as your argumentation won't lead anywhere anyway.
 
Also, the thread is being derailed from its original purpose.
 
@Ant

To be fair, I should have added that I didn't intend to sway people to trying to change his tier, but I ask, for discussion's sake, what makes you think that it is more practical that they be considered separate continuums in reference to Chaotic Inflationary models of the multiverse, as well as the fact that he could not affect the present in any meaningful way?
 
Present isn't actually the present. Its an alternate universe, it's even pointed out in that blog, and brought up in dbz too.

Doesn't matter, things like heaven and hell have their own space-time.
 
But the reasoning, as I understand it, for his tiering is that the *entirety* of the universes are argued to have their own space-time properties. Something which I think is presumptive, but that's besides the point.
 
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