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Zatanna vs Miraak

That not how mind hax works. Bend will can mind hax thousands of people; Martian Manhunter can mind hax billions; he has superior Mind hax to Miraak. Also when it came to Spectre, the Spectre Zatanna scales to is low 2-C.
 
Leandro Argolo said:
Well,Miraak can Control his own sanity and he can also resist Bend Will,which basically controls the enemy
I know that Bend Will doesnt work on everybody,but it works even on the strongest dragons that exist

But lets talk about a shout that i think Miraak knows simply because he spent millenia on apocrypha reading through infinite knowledge,Soul Tear. A spell that literally rips the soul out of someone's body

Im using this because it targets the soul,but somehow it doesnt ignore durability. Zatanna would need to be very tired to get her soul ripped out...hmm...maybe it can or cannot work,who knows

But,ill tell you something. The battle takes place in apocrypha,so her space-time manipulation,reality manipulation and time manipulation won't work because that IS Hermaeus Mora's realm. I bet if she tries tô use reality manipulation on apocrypha ,that she is gonna get insta-killed by Mora

So in this situation,no,Miraak cant be reality warped to death
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I think the whole "they neeed to be tired for it to work" is just gameplay mechanics.
 
Keeweed said:
That not how mind hax works. Bend will can mind hax thousands of people; Martian Manhunter can mind hax billions; he has superior Mind hax to Miraak. Also when it came to Spectre, the Spectre Zatanna scales to is low 2-C.
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Mind haxing billions of people who have 0 resistance to mind hax is not impressive at all, it just means he has a long range. I'm talking about mind hax that can overpower solid mind manipulation resistance. The large quantity mind hax does not indicate that you would be able to bypass high quality mind hax resistance. Bend will higher quality mind hax, martain manhunter large quantity mind hax.
 
Bend will actually has better range since Miraak can mind hax you from Oblivion, but how many you can mind hax determines its potency.
 
Show me a Martian Manhunter feat that shows him mind haxing someone that resisted a large number of qualitative mind hax.
 
I just want to also know how attacking a large number of people with zero resistance to mind hax is greater to quality mind hax attack on a character with larger amounts of mind hax resistance feats.
 
Because those large amount of people resistances are much lower than the amount of people MM has mind haxed. It doesn't matter if you can resist mind hax if the opponent can mind hax a vastly higher amount that what you have resisted. Miraak can mind hax an island at best and that can get past the Dragon's resistances just fine.

Say character A, B, and C can all resist mind manipulation that can control 10 people; all character D would need is mind manipulation above 31 in order to effect all three of them, because all of them combined have only shown to resist mind manipulation that can control 30 people (10+10+10 vs 31). That's why it doesn't matter that they have resistance, because the opponent just has powerful enough mind manipulation to ignore it.
 
was that bypassing his Torquasm-Vo as well?

Even if it didn't it doesn't matter because MM just has vastly better mind manipulation. It isn't all about resistances (until you get to dimensional tiering anyways); if you have good enough mind hax you can just overpower their resistances.
 
Keeweed said:
"whose mere will became reality"
That's literally how all Elder Scrolls reality works
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That is my point. She has fought someone named Zor who (on a universal scale) could change reality to their whim in a manner similar to what I constantly hear about Elder Scrolls characters, and through powers she gained in that story (from some sort of magical something in a jar that she had in that story, I think...), she was matching and defeating him at every turn.

In that fight, he used his reality warping on her directly in order to change her entire being into what he wished, and she reversed it easily. After the changes had already been made. And then she proceeded to say "Become everything Zor becomes and be my will in battle" (or something to that effect) backwards, which did exactly what the sentence implies.

The fight eventually got to the point that the two were (visibly) attempting to warp the very comic panels the other was drawn on, and she was still coming out on top.
 
Now I see what you meant. On one hand I believe a similar scenario happened in the Elder Scrolls with some of the low 2-Cs; but on the other hand this match is already a mismatch so I feel like it wouldn't be worth searching for the information and Miraak likely doesn't scale that.

I think I know a better opponent for Zatanna, but I'll probably make a small clean up thread for her profile because there are plenty of small obvious problems in her profile right now that are just annoying me.
 
I just searched up her mind hax and she can use telpathy,erase memory and read minds...i think she used it on Batman...i still dont know if her Mind Hax got stronger in Seven Soldiers....

And again,this battle takes place on apocrypha,so Hermaeus probably would not let her use reality warping or time manipulation
 
Leandro Argolo said:
And again,this battle takes place on apocrypha,so Hermaeus probably would not let her use reality warping or time manipulation
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Plenty of other characters have used their powers just fine in Apocrypha without Mora killing them. Even if Mora does kill her that just means the location needs to be changed. As for her durability, she's fought plenty of low 2-Cs before I doubt she would just let someone like Miraak attack her without her Force fields.
 
Leandro Argolo said:
And physically,Zatanna is just a human,any strike from Miraak's sword can just kill her instantly if she doesnt use a force field
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Incorrect.

In the battle with Zor, both of them were steadily growing larger from the moment the fight started. Zor at one point grabbed a satellite and tossed it at her, and by that point she was big enough to catch it in her mouth and spit it back at him. And then they proceeded to grow even larger until Zatanna was able to "see recent time from a weird angle" and both of them were big enough to physically tear each other's comic panels apart.

She's rated as "Unknown, likely Universe level+" in all of her physical stats in this key for a reason. The tail end of the fight implies she and Zor outgrew space-time and became 4-D. And if this fight is assuming she's Low 2-C, then that end form is what we're using.
 
Leandro Argolo said:
I just searched up her mind hax and she can use telpathy,erase memory and read minds...i think she used it on Batman...i still dont know if her Mind Hax got stronger in Seven Soldiers....
And again,this battle takes place on apocrypha,so Hermaeus probably would not let her use reality warping or time manipulation
Click to expand...
its miraak vs zatanna not herma mora vs katanna. He is not a factor in this fight.
 
Keeweed said:
Because those large amount of people resistances are much lower than the amount of people MM has mind haxed. It doesn't matter if you can resist mind hax if the opponent can mind hax a vastly higher amount that what you have resisted. Miraak can mind hax an island at best and that can get past the Dragon's resistances just fine.
Say character A, B, and C can all resist mind manipulation that can control 10 people; all character D would need is mind manipulation above 31 in order to effect all three of them, because all of them combined have only shown to resist mind manipulation that can control 30 people (10+10+10 vs 31). That's why it doesn't matter that they have resistance, because the opponent just has powerful enough mind manipulation to ignore it.
Click to expand...
That just doesn't make any sense to me. Why would the number of level 0 mind manip resistance people you can affect have any bearing on whether you can affect a person with level 10 resistance?
 
Because resistances aren't levels. You don't have level 10 resistance, you just can resist mind manipulation that can effect 10 people.
 
Just want to say my Auto correct is annoying me today because it keeps removing the n't from things I put so if my point seems to contradict itself pre being edited my autocorrect is the problem.
 
It happens to the best of us.

Anyway yeah resistances are measured in context, "amount of people affected" being the most common one. There can be some disagreement on how some overcomplicated feats should be interpreted and if they should get pass the resistance a character has or not, but this here is just a rather simple Fallacy.
 
"its miraak vs zatanna not herma mora vs katanna. He is not a factor in this fight. "

I know this isn't Mora vs Zatanna,but Mora is indeed a factor because of the ******* BATTLEFIELD THAT YOU CHOSE
 
"Incorrect.

In the battle with Zor, both of them were steadily growing larger from the moment the fight started. Zor at one point grabbed a satellite and tossed it at her, and by that point she was big enough to catch it in her mouth and spit it back at him. And then they proceeded to grow even larger until Zatanna was able to "see recent time from a weird angle" and both of them were big enough to physically tear each other's comic panels apart.

She's rated as "Unknown, likely Universe level+" in all of her physical stats in this key for a reason. The tail end of the fight implies she and Zor outgrew space-time and became 4-D. And if this fight is assuming she's Low 2-C, then that end form is what we're using."

Well,someone should update her profile atleast...im gonna get an opponent on Miraak's level later
 
Eficiente said:
It happens to the best of us.
Anyway yeah resistances are measured in context, "amount of people affected" being the most common one. There can be some disagreement on how some overcomplicated feats should be interpreted and if they should get pass the resistance a character has or not, but this here is just a rather simple Fallacy.
Click to expand...
So qualitative levels of mind manip are just thrown out the window? Even when we have spells in skyrim that can affect more people but can't affect a single higher level person? Rally can't affect certain beings in skyrim but it can affect a larger amount than pacify. Harmony can affect a whole town but not a single dragon. Dragonborn can't mind control and entire island but he could still overpower miraak's bend will shout with his.
 
What are you trying to accomplish? If you really think that being able to destroy bigger things makes your brain able to resist mind manip better than being able to destroy smaller things then that's good for you, but we as a wiki don't use such a fallacious logic. Also "qualitative levels of mind manip" goes to your perception of how it's measured, I can use the same words to describe how we measure it.
 
More or less, there are cases with more complex minds being affected, characters with resistence to mind manip being affected and other very specific things.
 
I get that much. But my confusion comes from from when we compare the cases of the number of people you can affect vs the qualitative stacking resistances to mind manipulation, I.E the scaling when it comes to a dragon resisting master level illusion spell but being affecting by bend will which can affect a great less number of entities. The Last Dragonborn's bendwill is stronger than miraak's even though Dragonborn can only affect a single entity where as the later can affect an entire island.
 
DTG499 said:
I get that much. But my confusion comes from from when we compare the cases of the number of people you can affect vs the qualitative stacking resistances to mind manipulation, I.E the scaling when it comes to a dragon resisting master level illusion spell but being affecting by bend will which can affect a great less number of entities. The Last Dragonborn's bendwill is stronger than miraak's even though Dragonborn can only affect a single entity where as the later can affect an entire island.
Click to expand...
The Dragonborn can affect more than 1 person the limitation is game mechanics.
 
And proof that rally affecting more people than pacify is due game mechanics aswell.
 
Becasue is the same as miraak but you get a limitation because of the game mechanics, well unless you get more than one person in your line of fire, same as necromancy and summoning in the game you can only summon 2 creatures in lore you can make armies and the same for the cooldown of the shouts in lore there is no cooldown you can spam them.

Unless you really think that all game limitations are true.
 
Leandro Argolo said:
"Incorrect.
In the battle with Zor, both of them were steadily growing larger from the moment the fight started. Zor at one point grabbed a satellite and tossed it at her, and by that point she was big enough to catch it in her mouth and spit it back at him. And then they proceeded to grow even larger until Zatanna was able to "see recent time from a weird angle" and both of them were big enough to physically tear each other's comic panels apart.

She's rated as "Unknown, likely Universe level+" in all of her physical stats in this key for a reason. The tail end of the fight implies she and Zor outgrew space-time and became 4-D. And if this fight is assuming she's Low 2-C, then that end form is what we're using."

Well,someone should update her profile atleast...im gonna get an opponent on Miraak's level later
Click to expand...
How high is she in the Low 2-C scale? i know that miraak is

Miraak(one shot kinda) >>>>> end game dragonborn >>> alduin >>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Low 2-C jills
 
Well the necromancy NPC's can't summon more than 1 or 2 as well as us. The notion of "if one character can use an ability in this way so can our character" is a little NLF and I would like some more lore to back that up. But I do understand that there is lore to back up the shout timer being a game mechanic.
 
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