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Zamasu Strikes again

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Theuser789 said:
Silver's future would be the original one, and his time travel created a new one which is the one we all know and hopefully love, that's what I meant
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... Where is this stated?
 
Again, you're shifting the burden of proof. You made the original claim that we can't assert them to be separate, I showed evidence through them being connected being inconsistent, and I substantiated my point. You're simply asking "oh, but can we do it?", I say yes, and then you say "burden of proof is on you." Stop throwing around the fallacy needlessly because you're both being fallacious on your own and holding back the point from continuing.

You did no such thing. You showed no evidence and just stated your logic behind it. Different backgrounds is not a proof for a different universe, unless you think that earth is in a different universe than Venus because one has a blue sky and the other has a red one.
 
We do know that they are both separated ones @DMB1, plus we know that what happened without time trave caused it, while the time travel caused the events of the timeline we know, the best analogy is in the Cell saga and Trunks time travelling creating new ones, it is kinda headcanonish but it's not really super relevant here

@Zamasu, I would suggest you to quit it, I don't think the downgrade will go through at all
 
One thing I will say. I may disagree with a lot of things involving Sonic, but PotS and Solaris totally deserve their tierings.
 
>"You took it out of context. It says rescue the five Emeralds from the parallel universe. Not only is this singular but it says all the emeralds are in this dimension as well as special stages. Why would you assume it's each Emerald is in a different universe when the guide says otherwise? A universe is really big I think a parallel dimension can hold a bunch of building sized special stages."

You're strawmanning me. I said that Sonic Chaos holds all of its Chaos Emeralds in the single parallel universe. I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying the special stages from other games have no such statements and its headcanon to assert the single parallel universe idea to them, especially when they have evidence proving otherwise with dimensional distortions and Nack's home.

>"It's simple actually, the game only has one true ending. There's no time travel or any awareness of other dimensions like Sonic CD. The Shadow thing wasn't accepted anyway."

This is burden of rejoinder because it doesn't go against my main point of them still being their own histories. We don't need proof like CD's, we can use typical procedure for valid assumptions that no evidence currently contradicts. Also, we're debating NOW over if the Shadow timelines can be accepted. Don't make it seem like this is already over because you aren't personally refuting it.

>"Ok? I didn't know you said it's inconsistent I don't track your every move, idk why you got so defensive here."

Because you're arguing over bullshit we already covered. Simply not responding would be enough of a concession. This is your fault, plain and simple.

>"Are you basing all that stuff on a flawed statement? During gameplay there aren't different past or present events, there's only to good future and the bad future. Each level has its good or bad future aesthetics and all the levels in the good future are in one timeline and all levels in the bad future are in one timeline. The game also has two endings. What is said in a manual is contradicted by what is shown in the actual game and what is shown > what is told."

Different levels having different futures and pasts lines up with the warp to new dimensions statement, it doesn't contradict it. Please show any evidence saying they're in a single timeline.

>"One, that's in Sonic Rush adventure, two that's from a wiki page edited by some random bonehead on fandom, three I've looked through all the scripts, nothing states that worlds are merging, only that they're being destroyed."

And? Even if it's from Rush Adventure it still applies to the Power of the Stars. Secondly, he cited his points and three look here. This is really disappointing.

>"It proves that Super Sonic doesn't have 2-C range."

Fine by me.

>"No the hell we don't."

First, those are separate irrelevant cases. Second, yes the hell we do. Third, tell me how 4-D divided by 2 isn't 4-D.

>"You seem pretty emotional on the subject, calling me insane and stuff. Maybe you can chill a little bit? After all, it's just a fictional hedgehog."

This is also irrelevant. But in case you wanted to know, the reason I seem "emotional" to you is because you're being ridiculous and quite frankly it pisses people off, especially since you're going against something I put work into. Stop with this.
 
The real cal howard said:
Again, you're shifting the burden of proof. You made the original claim that we can't assert them to be separate, I showed evidence through them being connected being inconsistent, and I substantiated my point. You're simply asking "oh, but can we do it?", I say yes, and then you say "burden of proof is on you." Stop throwing around the fallacy needlessly because you're both being fallacious on your own and holding back the point from continuing.
Click to expand...
You did no such thing. You showed no evidence and just stated your logic behind it. Different backgrounds is not a proof for a different universe, unless you think that earth is in a different universe than Venus because one has a blue sky and the other has a red one.

I did show evidence in the post. Check it if you need a refresher on Nack being from another dimension (a special stage, singular), and singular special stages needing to be accessed through dimensional distortion. Furthermore, when you make the original claim, I don't need to give much further evidence, just disprove your point. Stop acting like that's true.

The different backgrounds is just further side evidence.
 
Yeah. I've checked the Nack thing on your blog. It's unsourced and links to something from Shadow the Hedgehog. Heck, the scan here implies that Special Stages aren't universes, but that they're all apart of a parallel universe called the Other World.
 
The real cal howard said:
Yeah. I've checked the Nack thing on your blog. It's unsourced and links to something from Shadow the Hedgehog. Heck, the scan here implies that Special Stages aren't universes, but that they're all apart of a parallel universe called the Other World.
Click to expand...
He said because it's only stated in Sonic Chaos then that means that's the only dimension with multiple stages. When is it ever stated that the stages themselves are different dimensions?
 
>"Yeah. I've checked the Nack thing on your blog. It's unsourced and links to something from Shadow the Hedgehog."

My bad on the link.

>"Heck, the scan here implies that Special Stages aren't universes, but that they're all apart of a parallel universe called the Other World."

I've definitely said this more than 10 times now. That's specific to Sonic Chaos only.
 
Furthermore each special stage needs a separate dimensional distortion to be entered in Sonic Rush. That's for Blaze's world and it should also be applicable to Sonic's world.

I'm going out for a bit, and I'll be back later.
 
All I'm hearing from is "should". And while there's nothing wrong with "should"s, you have to back it up with proof. What says it's specific to Sonic Chaos? Them being universes in the first place comes from Sonic Chaos (or Triple Trouble if that's what you wanna call it).
 
No, you're strawmanning me again. The idea that they're separat dimensions doesn't come from Chaos. It comes from Rush and Triple Trouble.

Regardless, nothing says the combined universe from Chaos applies to anywhere else. This is tiptoeing the line of ad nauseum.
 
Triple Trouble has them all in a single universe too. At the absolute best, it's not 7 universes per game and it's one universe per game.
 
Please show where Triple Trouble has them all in a single universe and how the single universe theory is applicable to literally every game.
 
Darksspine said:
Please show where Triple Trouble has them all in a single universe and how the single universe theory is applicable to literally every game.
Click to expand...
The fact that Nack is there in every single one, implying that it's just in his home dimension. Now it's up to you to prove that literally every game has the Chaos Emeralds home to a separate unconnected universe. Because once again, you have yet to support your claim without mentioning Triple Trouble, which doesn't support jack, and Rush, which I don't even know what you're getting there. Not only do we not see Blaze collect them through Special Stages ever, we don't even know if a Special Stage exists in her universe. And even if it did it doesn't change my point given parallel universe shenanigans. If you can prove your headcanon that each Special Stage is its own universe, go ahead. Find me not just your interpretation but a statement or even a heavy implication. But until then, it's just that. Headcanon. And extrapolated headcanon at that.
 
Hopefully this comment will put things to rest. This really was a pointless thread.

>"Now it's up to you to prove that literally every game has the Chaos Emeralds home to a separate unconnected universe. Because once again, you have yet to support your claim without mentioning Triple Trouble, which doesn't support jack, and Rush, which I don't even know what you're getting there. Not only do we not see Blaze collect them through Special Stages ever, we don't even know if a Special Stage exists in her universe."

We accept that Triple Trouble has a single special stage and Sonic Chaos has a parallel universe for its special stages. I'll add the former to the blog. However, to say that I have yet to support my claim is absolute bullshit.

Cal, you were the one who made the original claim that they're all united into one special stage dimension. To quote you:

"But what I got was that there's no proof that they're all separate and you have to prove that they're unique special zones,"

From the very beginning you said I had to prove they're unique when you posed they were all together. There IS proof that they're separate that I've argued this entire time but you've continued to miscontrue and pull straws at. I'm not going to say this again: you shifted the burden of proof. To go on these long tirades of "you need to prove this" is entirely false. You're the one with burden of proof and shifting the burden of proof since you're the origin of the claim.

Furthermore, if you're looking for the proof I have that they're separate, I've already laid it out, but maybe it's best for you if I do it again.

  • Assuming every game has special stages from a single parallel universe is a hasty generalizatio
  • It's a standard assumption that they're separate and not conjoined with no current contradictions
  • Blaze's dimension, a parallel to Sonic with the same tropes of a casual parallel universe (where Blaze is Sonic, Marine is Tails, Eggman Nega is Eggman, the Sol Emeralds are the Chaos Emeralds, etc.), and essentially mirrors Sonic's world. To access each different special stage in Blaze's dimension, you have to cause a dimensional distortion, which is dimensional travel. Because Sonic's world mirrors hers, each special stage in his dimension requires its own separate dimensional distortion, making each one their own separate space
>"Not only do we not see Blaze collect them through Special Stages ever, we don't even know if a Special Stage exists in her universe."

Lies. Look at this scan.

>"And even if it did it doesn't change my point given parallel universe shenanigans. If you can prove your headcanon that each Special Stage is its own universe, go ahead. Find me not just your interpretation but a statement or even a heavy implication. But until then, it's just that. Headcanon. And extrapolated headcanon at that."

No, it isn't headcanon. I already BEFORE this comment provided the evidence and even did so in the original blog, but no, you chose to pose loaded questions and used them to shift the burden of proof which was on your side the whole time. Either you've been bsing your argument this entire time or you've majorly, VISIBLY contradicted yourself without even acknowledging it.

CONCLUSION

Thus far, everything has remained solid. The timelines from Shadow the Hedgehog, the dimensions from Sonic CD, and even the special stages have been fine. Cal and Zamasu have yet again made a big fuss of all of this. Also, before anybody reading this says "Oh but I disagreed with that stuff!" if you're going to argue against it, please read the actual thread and say something that hasn't already been countered from every angle.

If you've already attempted to refute the verbatim mentioned cosmological points, if you have anything new to say, go ahead, but if it's already been said be quiet. In that second circumstance, you've failed to keep the argument going and have already conceded via burden of rejoinder. We don't need to keep going over this stuff extensively in ad nauseum and backtracking.

Finally, this thread should be closed, as it really is pointless.
 
You know what, **** it. I'm getting the other staff on this. If you won't listen to me then maybe you'll listen to others. Because the only staff that replied to your blog is yours truly.
 
The real cal howard said:
You know what, **** it. I'm getting the other staff on this. If you won't listen to me then maybe you'll listen to others. Because the only staff that replied to your blog is yours truly.
Click to expand...
I'll take that as concession.
 
No, you're taking it as a "I'm allowing other people can come in and agree or disagree with the points being made because unlike some people I can admit that it's probably best if an outside opinion makes some decisions instead of the same biased people every time, whether they're for or against Sonic."
 
The real cal howard said:
No, you're taking it as a "I'm allowing other people can come in and agree or disagree with the points being made because unlike some people I can admit that it's probably best if an outside opinion makes some decisions instead of the same biased people every time, whether they're for or against Sonic."
Click to expand...
No? Don't tell me what I'm saying, I know what I'm saying better. I'm taking you not arguing against me and instead getting outside debaters as help as concession through burden of rejoinder.
 
Yes. Because me arguing around in circles with you over and over again until I get tired and allow someone else to give their opinion is me admitting you're right. Tell you what. I'm going to go around the wiki exclaiming Superman is 1-A. He has a lot of feats and it's just us downplaying. And when people inevitably come to debunk me, I'll say the same things over and over until they just let someone else take the reins and therefore I win the argument because me and my ego will take it as concession.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Can we for ******* once in a sonic thread not having a ************* breakdown.
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Trust me. This will never stop. I've been trying for nearly a year now, and it's still going strong.
 
I still agree with the OP. There is literally no proof that each and every special stage is an alternate universe, and same with Shadow the Hedgehog; none of the alternate routes are canon except for one. There are so far only 12 established universes in the Sonic franchise. This has been explained in details and no matter how quantity over quality these arguments are, it's entirely based on "Oh, dimensions or worlds have to mean universe because it's Sonic." When the clearly explained details Zamasu explained in another blog only have 12 of them being legit universes.

Second, Zamasu is not proposing anyone to be downgraded to Low 2-C. At the end of the day, Solaris can still destroy all existing universes. However, he doesn't do it instantly and he does it over time. And destroying universes one by one may be Low 2-C, but there's still 2 universes that involving destroying 2 universes. Egg Wizard and Egg Salamander. Power of the Stars best feat involves the destruction of 2 Universes and is legit considered above the Chaos Emeralds. It's similar concept to those like The Storm King. However, at lowest, it could still be the AP of 2 Universes. But at most, it's the AP of 12 Universes.
 
Literally no proof? Darksspine would like to have some words with you about that, because he's been giving all the evidence he needs at this point. Also yes, dimensions and worlds have only ever been used as a term for universe in Sonic except for obvious context stating otherwise. Not "because it's Sonic". That comment seemed antagonistic, and I know others agree with that as well.

False. The original intent was a Low 2-C downgrade before he conceded. Also, not to be rude, but you or somebody else is going to have to actually argue against Darksspine's posts before you start calling shots on what the cap of their AP is.
 
Worlds have also meant planet. Just like when Earth and Mobius were called worlds. Or when Camelot was called a world. Also, why would a bunch of mini-games be a bunch of universes. Also, Darksspine has gotten multiple warnings for being rude, obnoxious, and condescending on various blogs. This includes pushing for us to accept black hole calcs when we don't do for other verses. Or assuming that day/night transitions are planet flipping feats when they're more commonly time manipulation feats. Not using the behavior as a refute, but he legit literally demands giving the verses more standards than what's legit. Also, Sonic threads have a history of being toxic, that goes without saying. And Cal explained in detail why that is.

Zamasu said later in the thread that it wasn't a Low 2-C downgrade. It was in the past, and even I argued against him, but now it's not. Cal also said he was going to message other staff members.
 
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