Egg Wizard's justification change (and perhaps a range downgrade).

[Starsprite53]

Quoting the Egg Wizard profile:

"and allows for the existence of parallel worlds, of which there is a possibly infinite amount"

I honestly think that this is a weird argument that was probably rooted in a misinterpretation of Sonic Rush Adventure's dialogue from a Sonic Wiki(I adore that wiki btw).
Let’s see what Eggman Nega actually said:
"This world and Dr. Eggman's world exist in separate dimensions. Each of us can think of the other as what is known as a 'parallel universe.' What makes this possible is this so-called 'Power of the Stars.'"
Nowhere does Nega state that the Power of the Stars created all universes or allows their existence. The key word here is "separate".
All that’s being described is how the Power of the Stars ensures that Sonic's world and Blaze's world remain distinct and seperate and parallel while still linked, as already established in the first game.
The dialogue only suggests that the Power of the SStars enables the separation between their worlds specifically. In fact, it's outright confirmed that the PoTS is referred to as "dimensional energy" between Sonic's and Blaze's worlds, making it even more obvious that it’s localized to these two dimensions. Trying to scale it to all universes is a wrong extrapolation that has no foundation in the source material and requires extraordinary evidence, which simply doesn’t exist.
Fun fact (While it's super duper irrelevent since it's not canon):The Archie comics interpretates it as seen here.
I think the judgement of the feat shouldn't be based on the old scan (click on sustain).

Affected pages from this:
Egg Wizard.
Jeweled Scepter


Agree: MysticMania, TyranoDoom, Alexander
Neutral: ShakeResouding.
Disagree:

 

[MysticMania]

I agree, currently.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Eh, whatever. Agreed

 

[Alexander]

no one cares anyway, Egg Wizard is stronger than Solaris thanks to the gems.

 

[ShakeResounding]

You now have to list which pages this affects iirc (new standard for popular/big verses iirc). AFAIK the only page affected is the Power of the Stars (and any page that mentions it in relation to how it's currently treated).

Normally I would vehemently disagree with using Archie, but this is one of the few exceptions (like Archie Solaris) where I think it's valid.

Neutral, no qualms towards agreeing.

 

[Starsprite53]

no one cares anyway, Egg Wizard is stronger than Solaris thanks to the gems.

I mean, this is just removing the justification and perhaps changes the range.

 

[Starsprite53]

You now have to list which pages this affects iirc (new standard for popular/big verses iirc).

Oh well:
Egg Wizard.
Jeweled Scepter

 

[ShakeResounding]

Oh well:
Egg Wizard.
Jeweled Scepter

Add it to OP

 

[Starsprite53]

Add it to OP

My bad.

 

[Theuser789]

I disagree, I feel like you're nitpicking Nega's dialogue to just be about two universes, when it can easily be about parallel universes in general, and not these two in specific. Also, what's the Japanese version of the line?

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[Starsprite53]

I disagree, I feel like you're nitpicking Nega's dialogue to just be about two universes, when it can easily be about parallel universes in general, and not these two in specific.

"This world and Dr. Eggman's world exist in separate dimensions. Each of us can think of the other as what is known as a 'parallel universe.' What makes this possible is this so-called 'Power of the Stars.'"
Nowhere does Nega state that the Power of the Stars created all universes or allows their existence. The key word here is "separate".
All that’s being described is how the Power of the Stars ensures that Sonic's world and Blaze's world remain distinct and seperate and parallel while still linked, as already established in the first game.

This is not a nitpick, this what he actually said, and I already explained why it makes sense with the lore.
If you claim it's for all universes, then that's an extraordinary claim that requires an extraordinary evidence.

The dialogue only suggests that the Power of the SStars enables the separation between their worlds specifically. In fact, it's outright confirmed that the PoTS is referred to as "dimensional energy" between Sonic's and Blaze's worlds, making it even more obvious that it’s localized to these two dimensions.

I don't have to repeat myself.

Also, what's the Japanese version of the line?

The japanese version is explicit about the lines referring to both worlds only.
And Honestly the usage of "it's something like" kinda implies they're connected in some form.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Seems reasonable. Agreed.

 

[Theuser789]

This is not a nitpick, this what he actually said, and I already explained why it makes sense with the lore.

It is a nitpick because he never said that the Power of the Stars sustains ONLY those universes, only that the Power of the Stars creates separation in general

Each of us can think of the other as what is known as a 'parallel universe.' What makes this possible is this so-called 'Power of the Stars.'"

What makes "parallel universe" possible is the Power of the Stars, not what makes THESE SPECIFIC parallel universes possible.

The japanese version is explicit about the lines referring to both worlds only.

No, the Japanese version actually makes it so that the Power of the Stars is the power that forms from a parallel world is the Power of the Stars.

This seems like a matter of reading comprehension.

 

[Remus1998]

Disagree, I agree with user's sentiment

 

[MysticMania]

I do feel it could refer to the full multiverse, but with the wording of the line, the context of the conversation, and the context of what the game's premise is about to begin with; going off of this evidence alone, it does feel more likely to be referring to a specific set of universes, and not all of them personally.

 

[Theuser789]

I do feel it could refer to the full multiverse, but with the wording of the line, the context of the conversation, and the context of what the game's premise is about to begin with; going off of this evidence alone, it does feel more likely to be referring to a specific set of universes, and not all of them personally.

In the context of the Rush games, the full multiverse is just Sonic and Blaze, because the rest of the cosmology wasn't fully set in stone like it is now.

 

[MysticMania]

In the context of the Rush games, the full multiverse is just Sonic and Blaze, because the rest of the cosmology wasn't fully set in stone like it is now.

I don't feel I agree, to be honest. At this point in the timeline, Dr. Eggman (and the franchise in general) had already come across other universes besides these two. Of course, it's technically Eggman Nega saying this, and not Dr. Eggman, but considering Rush released close to games such as Sonic Riders and 06, and released after a bunch of games with Special Stages, other timelines, and Sonic Shuffle, I don't currently feel confident that the 2005 vision that was held of the multiverse consisted only of what we see in Rush and Rush Adventure.

( There are also technically Special Stages in Sonic Rush as well. )

 

[Starsprite53]

It is a nitpick because he never said that the Power of the Stars sustains ONLY those universes, only that the Power of the Stars creates separation in general

Oh my freaking potatoes, that’s pure argument from silence, and a bad, bad, bad one too, you're unreasonably trying to stretch an explicitly statement into headcanon with zero contextual support. Eggman Nega clearly refers to two specific dimensions, NOwhere does he even hint that dea power of the Stars governs all universes, there's absolutely no implication of a broader range here.
You don’t need the word “only” when context already limits the scope. People talk like that all the time.

What makes "parallel universe" possible is the Power of the Stars, not what makes THESE SPECIFIC parallel universes possible.

Ok soooo, this is total lack of understanding of how language and context work, and on purpose.
Eggman Nega is explicitly referring to two specific dimensions and he’s clearly contextualizing why these two worlds exist as distinct yet EXTREMELY linked as seen in the first Rush game.
"He never said [Unnecessary wording], he said this."
That’s not how dialogue works, that’s not how logic and language work, and that’s not how People are necessarly supposed to speak, we speak in shorthand all the time. Just because he didn’t say “these specific parallel universes” doesn’t mean he was talking about every universe ever. That’s your baseless extrapolation.

No, the Japanese version actually makes it so that the Power of the Stars is the power that forms from a parallel world is the Power of the Stars.

Yeah, PoTS is the power that forms Blaze's dimension (This world, mind you), makes it completely seperate (Something like a parallel world), the power that’s between these two dimensions. What about it?

This seems like a matter of reading comprehension.

This isn’t a matter of "reading comprehension", you rude, it’s a matter of you inventing implications that don’t exist.
People are not forced to speak in absolute qulifiers for your majesty, especially when the context is already established, and demanding me for that level of literal spoon feeding and treat it as a debunk just to understand basic conversation is just wrong.
Unless you have direct, unambiguos evidence that the PoTS operates across the entire freaking multiverse, stick to the actual source and don’t ******* inject your judgement that is purely based on an old scan for the profile which was from the Sonic wiki.
And I'm not here for someone to rate my reading comprehension skills.

 

[Starsprite53]

In the context of the Rush games, the full multiverse is just Sonic and Blaze, because the rest of the cosmology wasn't fully set in stone like it is now.

So not only this is objectively wrong, other dimensions in Sonic existed since the very first game, and the literal profile of Egg Wizard uses an item from another dimension as a reference/evidence for scaling.
But also it is killing your argument even more, great consistency, bravo.

 

[MysticMania]

I feel you're being a bit rude towards them.

 

[Starsprite53]

I feel you're being a bit rude towards them.

Maybe ask the guy who trashes on my reading comprehension skills all the time.

 

[JJSliderman]

I’ve had my qualms about some of the other downgrades, but this is fine imo. Egg Wizard would still be scaling to a high level.

 

[Starsprite53]

I’ve had my qualms about some of the other downgrades, but this is fine imo. Egg Wizard would still be scaling to a high level.

I really don't mind about any of the scaling, I'm just against this reasoning.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah fair.

 

[MysticMania]

Maybe ask the guy who trashes on my reading comprehension skills all the time.

That's definitely a valid reason to be upset. That's rude.

 

[Theuser789]

and released after a bunch of games with Special Stages, other timelines, and Sonic Shuffle, I don't currently feel confident that the 2005 vision that was held of the multiverse consisted only of what we see in Rush and Rush Adventure.

None of the examples you posted are "parallel worlds". They are just extra worlds were things are wacky, not something like "Earth 2" that you see in comic book multiverse stories.

You don’t need the word “only” when context already limits the scope. People talk like that all the time.

You do when you're making such a limited claim. What the game says is that the Power of Stars is responsible for universes like Sonic and Blaze's. You're adding a limitation, so you need to prove that's an actual thing.

That’s your baseless extrapolation.

Not baseless. Nega was using Sonic and Blaze's universe as an example, because that's the only parallel worlds Sonic and Blaze knew. You are the one extrapolating that it ONLY means those words because they are the ones directly stated.

distinct yet EXTREMELY linked as seen in the first Rush game.

Why are you linking Sonic 3 and Knuckles?

What about it?

That no scan you used ever limits to JUST being those parallel universes.

This isn’t a matter of "reading comprehension", you rude, it’s a matter of you inventing implications that don’t exist.

Yes, it is a matter of reading comprehension. When I say oxygen supports the existence of you and me, that doesn't mean it only supports us. The context would indicate it implicates all humans. Getting mad over it doesn't change that at all.

 

[JJSliderman]

I do think the power of the stars could refer to parallel universes as a whole, but there’s no proof of that. Yeah, the power of the stars does upscale multi+ power, but that means very little for range.

 

[Starsprite53]

None of the examples you posted are "parallel worlds". They are just extra worlds were things are wacky, not something like "Earth 2" that you see in comic book multiverse stories.

This is just lol.

You do when you're making such a limited claim. What the game says is that the Power of Stars is responsible for universes like Sonic and Blaze's. You're adding a limitation, so you need to prove that's an actual thing.

Nah, me not adding a limitation, da game’s context already does that for me lmfao. The entire converssation is explicitly about Sonic’s and Blaze’s worlds and nothing else. If a character is discussing TWO specific things, there’s no need for them to say “only” every time to clarify what they’re obviously talking about.

Not baseless. Nega was using Sonic and Blaze's universe as an example, because that's the only parallel worlds Sonic and Blaze knew. You are the one extrapolating that it ONLY means those words because they are the ones directly stated.

This is not what extrapolating means....
I’m staying within the stated context, which names only Sonic’s and Blaze’s worlds (Saying "As an example" is just a failed attempt to sound right). You’re the one attempting to expand the scope beyond the given information, so you bear the burden of proof, you can't just say: "Well, it doesn't say ONLY, so it must mean everything." That’s just lazy logic, very lazy.
And I'm 100% sure that it shouldn't have existed if it weren't for the old scan that you're basing your judgement on.

That no scan you used ever limits to JUST being those parallel universes.

And nothing you used ever extends to ALL parallel universes.
At least I do have evidence and lore to back me up.

Yes, it is a matter of reading comprehension. When I say oxygen supports the existence of you and me, that doesn't mean it only supports us. The context would indicate it implicates all humans. Getting mad over it doesn't change that at all.

False analogy, when you say "oxygen", you're referencing something objectively universally known for all humans , we all breathe oxygen and it's very very obvious common knowledge, so the generality here is implied.And literally context does limit scope. If someone says "The energy of this KAOUS emeraldo powers Sonic's house and Amy (Sonic's girlfriend btw)'s house." the burden is on you to prove it also powers every building on earth, not the other way around.

 

[Theuser789]

I do think the power of the stars could refer to parallel universes as a whole, but there’s no proof of that. Yeah, the power of the stars does upscale multi+ power, but that means very little for range.

I feel like the statement is clearly referring to parallel universes in general.

da game’s context already does that for me lmfao. The entire converssation is explicitly about Sonic’s and Blaze’s worlds and nothing else. If a character is discussing TWO specific things, there’s no need for them to say “only” every time to clarify what they’re obviously talking about.

The game's context amplifies on what I'm saying. It talks about the nature of parallel worlds in general, not just these two specific worlds. If you want to debunk something, you do need proof that it only refers to THESE WORLDS ONLY.

I’m staying within the stated context, which names only Sonic’s and Blaze’s worlds (Saying "As an example" is just a failed attempt to sound right). You’re the one attempting to expand the scope beyond the given information, so you bear the burden of proof, you can't just say: "Well, it doesn't say ONLY, so it must mean everything." That’s just lazy logic, very lazy.
And I'm 100% sure that it shouldn't have existed if it weren't for the old scan that you're basing your judgement on.

The stated context is using Blaze and Sonic's worlds as an example of parallel worlds, yes. Saying it's lazy, failed attempt to sound right, or just "lol" aren't arguments. I thought it referred to all universes even though I never read the wiki.

when you say "oxygen", you're referencing something objectively universally known for all humans , we all breathe oxygen and it's very very obvious common knowledge,

And when you say it powers parallel worlds, you would expect it powers all parallels worlds, not just two specific ones.

"The energy of this KAOUS emeraldo powers Sonic's house and Amy

No, what would be a correct example would be "The energy of the Chaos Emeralds power up 'neighbor houses', such as Sonic and Amy's". Nega's statement is far more generic.

 

[Starsprite53]

The game's context amplifies on what I'm saying. It talks about the nature of parallel worlds in general, not just these two specific worlds. If you want to debunk something, you do need proof that it only refers to THESE WORLDS ONLY.

Nice try to add something that he never said.
"Nature of parallel worlds in general"
He never said or implied that.
I already have evidence, ignoring them and shifting the burden of proof is on me won't help you.

The stated context is using Blaze and Sonic's worlds as an example of parallel worlds, yes.

That's not what he said.
Throwing the word example and general won't help your case when the wording and context and even sources doesn't support your case.

And when you say it powers parallel worlds

Yeah, and thank god it never used that wording.

 

[Starsprite53]

Actually nvm, I think we will go over back and forth with ai responses.

 

[Starsprite53]

I know AI sucks balls and all, but I asked it to offer an unbiased interpretation of Nega's quote and this was it's response:




You can ignore this, though, since AI usually sucks. Just thought it would be interesting since this is a reading comprehension issue.

Ai is very stupid when it comes to basic sentence learning espacially without context, saying this as a computer science student.
Iirc, months ago my friends were talking how Ai highballed the shit out of Zamasu's feat range, so Idk how this will your case besides gaslighting others.

 

[Omegabronic]

Ai is very stupid when it comes to basic sentence learning espacially without context, saying this as a computer science student.
Iirc, months ago my friends were talking how Ai highballed the shit out of Zamasu's feat range, so Idk how this will your case besides gaslighting others.

hum... are you actually going to counterargue the points or? Saying "it sucks cuz this thing wrotte it" doesn't disprove it

 

[Theuser789]

Nice try to add something that he never said.
"Nature of parallel worlds in general"
He never said or implied that.

He did imply that, when he talks about the power of the stars sustaining parallel worlds.

Throwing the word example and general won't help your case when the wording and context and even sources doesn't support your case.

Yes, that is what he implied. Being obsessed over him not using the exact words of "example" and "general" is ironically the problem you were accusing me earlier.

Ai is very stupid when it comes to basic sentence learning espacially without context, saying this as a computer science student.

This is why I said twice it wasn't fully reliable, and that I basically used it to simply read the text and express it's opinion unbiasedly. And if you read the second message you will realize I did give it context?

 

[Starsprite53]

hum... are you actually going to counterargue the points or? Saying "it sucks cuz this thing wrotte it" doesn't disprove it

You can ignore this, though, since AI usually sucks. Just thought it would be interesting since this is a reading comprehension issue.

In fact you had no problem with this ai slop kinda shows the dishonesty here.

 

[Omegabronic]

In fact you had no problem with this kinda shows the dishonesty here.

... You doing a Ad Hominen and using the "dishonest" card doesn't really answer the points at all... so like, i ask again, will you use counterarguments to what was argued or... ?

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, it wasn't the AI isn't supposed to be a literal argument, just a point of view.

 

[Starsprite53]

He did imply that, when he talks about the power of the stars sustaining parallel worlds.

Please use the actual wording of the dialogue.

Yes, that is what he implied. Being obsessed over him not using the exact words of "example" and "general" is ironically the problem you were accusing me earlier.

Nice try, let me remind you that you're doing something more extraordinary then me.

Like you were literally obsessed over him not using the exact word of "just"
Difference here is that "just" is an absolute qulifier, an adverb, that can easily be not used with context. Yours on the other hand.....

 

[Theuser789]

Please use the actual wording of the dialogue.

"This world and Dr. Eggman's world exist in separate dimensions. Each of us can think of the other as what is known as a 'parallel universe.' What makes this possible is this so-called 'Power of the Stars.'"

Let's interpret this. First, Nega states that his and Eggman’s worlds exist in separate dimensions. Then he explains that's what parallel universes are. Then he says what makes "parallel universes" possible is the Power of the Stars.

"What makes  this" possible is referring to "parallel universe". Therefore, Nega is saying the Power of the Stars makes parallel universes possible, like his and Eggman’s. His line is using his and Eggman’s world as an example to the existance of parallel universe, and then he explains that parallel universes exist because of the Power of the Stars.

Replacing "this" to what it's pointing to makes it clear. "What makes (Parallel Universe) possible is this so-called Power of the Stars).