Yu Yu Hakusho downgrade

[Davy0]

on Raizen profile "It stated that Raizen in his prime years was more powerful than the combined might of Yomi, Mukuro, and his former friends in their prime years" continent buster seems legit if that statement is true or he could at least be large country and possibly continent level

No no, we can't do that. Yusuke took hits from an Island Buster, so everyone else is an Island Buster, no one has shown the feats of destroying a country, so how can we ever say Prime Raizen is close to Country Busting, that'd be absurd!

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

I agree with what was suggested earlier of placing Yusuke and the other top tiers at Small Country level and Raizen at Country level via powerscaling.

You do realize that if we do that, DB takes a hit as well, because it's all implied at what Beerus can do, not what he actually has been seen doing, right?

I actually disagree with some of DB powerscaling as well. I don't get why Cell Saga characters are considered Star busters here for example. Beerus should still be at least Large Star+ though and he has feats to back it up.

 

[Davy0]

I already stated that's all he can be. We can't imply that he's a Solar System Buster, a Galaxy Buster or even a UNIVERSE Buster, that's far too far away from what has been shown thus far. Wait... They haven't shown the ability to Star Bust, it was only stated by Whis that he'd done so. Whis could be lying! We can't accept that from him either. WAIT! GOKU AND VEGETA GOT SCARED OF A PLANET BEING DESTROYED BY BEERUS! They are only Large Planet Busters now, at least Beerus' still outranks them in terms of power, right?

 

[Joseph619]

I agree with what was suggested earlier of placing Yusuke and the other top tiers at Small Country level and Raizen at Country level via powerscaling.

You do realize that if we do that, DB takes a hit as well, because it's all implied at what Beerus can do, not what he actually has been seen doing, right?

And so what if DB does take a hit? If you feel Beerus is not solar system level than you can make a thread about it. I wont argue over that. Beerus being solar system level is backed by statement + starbusting feat. There is nothing as such for Raizen. Yusuke would be low country level for beating island level sensui. Raizen would be simply country level. Fujitora is not accepted as country buster even though he actually has an on panel feat. Don't see why YYH should get any favour .

 

[Davy0]

No no no, every fiction on this entire wiki takes a hit, because many, many fictions use logical powerscaling to say how powerful a character is. If we take that away, everything becomes fair and everyone has to find each and every feat of a character to make sure that they are as they are. Oh, and their ranking, contexts of power, and abilities mean nothing. They either have the feats or they don't. That seems completely fair. So I'm saying you win man, we'll go full scale, everyone gets their own feats. Sound good?

 

[Joseph619]

No no no, every fiction on this entire wiki takes a hit, because many, many fictions use logical powerscaling to say how powerful a character is. If we take that away, everything becomes fair and everyone has to find each and every feat of a character to make sure that they are as they are. Oh, and their ranking, contexts of power, and abilities mean nothing. They either have the feats or they don't. That seems completely fair. So I'm saying you win man, we'll go full scale, everyone gets their own feats. Sound good?

That is upto you and the mods. It seems reasonable. I find that YYH statements and powerscale don't match upto the hype at all, and the assigned tiers extremely biased. I have also shown why One Piece and Naruto are not getting the same benefit from statement and powerscaling as YYH. You can make threads about them if you wish

About time a mod locks this thread, we have reached verdict as it appears

 

[The_Everlasting]

What verdict? It's just you and Davy going back and forth. I say we wait for Rocks to post on this so he can settle this.

 

[Joseph619]

What verdict? It's just you and Davy going back and forth. I say we wait for Rocks to post on this so he can settle this.

Apparently Davy0 has agreed, and so has everybody else. We can wait for rock if you wish...

 

[Davy0]

No no no, what's the rush. Just because Goku can beat Freeza doesn't mean he has the ability to destroy the masses of Large Bodied Planets. Oh! If we only use Manga Freeza, he can't destroy a planet, otherwise he would have destroyed it in one blast, so that means that Freeza has to be dipped even more. Cell? Cell can't destroy a planet either, none of the Z-fighters can because even though Vegeta said if he aimed his Kamehameha right at the planet he'd destroy it, we can't say for sure that, that's true. So that's gone too. Only Goku and Raditz can dodge bullets, Vegeta, Freeza, and anyone else who is worth their salt as a fighter in DB have never been seen dodging them, so we can cut that out the list too. Man... a lot of series are going to take drops due to no feats implying that certain characters can do as they require. It's a sad thing, isn't it?

 

[Davy0]

What verdict? It's just you and Davy going back and forth. I say we wait for Rocks to post on this so he can settle this.

He made his own agreement to it. Stating that Yusuke should be Small Country Level because his favored series aren't getting enough attention.

So let's be more realistic about this, Ever. Powerscaling doesn't exist, we can't powerscale any more because, there's nothing to say any of the characters that have ever implied anything in a fiction, are telling the truth. They're only humans, aliens, beings of the world who don't know anything and are completely incapable of making a deductive observation. It's blasphemy we try to make YYH this super powerful universe when there have been no feats implying anything.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

No no no, what's the rush. Just because Goku can beat Freeza doesn't mean he has the ability to destroy the masses of Large Bodied Planets. Oh! If we only use Manga Freeza, he can't destroy a planet, otherwise he would have destroyed it in one blast, so that means that Freeza has to be dipped even more. Cell? Cell can't destroy a planet either, none of the Z-fighters can because even though Vegeta said if he aimed his Kamehameha right at the planet he'd destroy it, we can't say for sure that, that's true. So that's gone too. Only Goku and Raditz can dodge bullets, Vegeta, Freeza, and anyone else who is worth their salt as a fighter in DB have never been seen dodging them, so we can cut that out the list too. Man... a lot of series are going to take drops due to no feats implying that certain characters can do as they require. It's a sad thing, isn't it?

lol this is hilarious

 

[Joseph619]

@Davy0 Yep. Except that Frieza has actually destroyed planet. Buu has destroyed planet. Beerus has destroyed stars. The only cliff buster in YYH is Sensui, and everybody else magically becomes country/continent level blowing up stuff. YYH has a couple of feats from Sensui to powerscale from, that is only island level. Island level is the best quantifiable feat in YYH. All the hype comes from a single character with a couple of feat. Not to mention the hype is UNQUANTIFIABLE. Is Goku being planet buster unquantifiable? No, because he clealry beat Frieza. Yusuke beating Sensui makes him small country level at most by powerscaling. There was never any actual continent/country busting in YYH. There was plenty of planet busting in DBZ. YYH shouldn't be powerscaled to country/continent level without feats. YYH lacks feats, DBZ doesn't. Show me a single feat better than island busting in YYH. Goku doesn't destroy planets but his enemies can/do. Nobody in YYH can destroy a continent, never happened. No good guy/bad guy destroyed any continent. Goku being planet buster is not hype, Raizen being continent buster is.

Goku was a planet buster because he beat Frieza in Namek. Beating Namek Frieza doesn't make SSJ Goku a starbuster. Same way being stronger than Yusuke doesn't make Raizen continent buster. Raizen being continent level, or large country level for that matter, is 100% baseless, I have already shown why above. Dont know have to repeat it again

 

[Femto_Apostle]

I think I get what the main point of this is, but I am sorry if I am incorrect because there was a lot going on.

Firstly, yes, I agree that he is not a Planet Buster or anything like that, as some people tend to think. However, there is definitely enough to put him at Country Level.

Here is the evidence I feel supports it.

1) The statement doesn't hurt the case at all.

2) This calc by ChaosTheory which put his shock wave at Island Level.

3) This Calc which attempts to expand on ChaosTheory's original, by finding the force of the diect hit, that came out to Small Country Level.

4) Those Previosy Calcs were for a feat that wasn't even his strongest attack. Just a normal Uppercut.

I feel that is more than enough to put him at Country Level.

I also think Fuji is Country Level, but thats a different discussion.

 

[Davy0]

I told you, context can't be used Joseph man. It was only implied that he destroyed a planet. We only got feats of him destroying a planet fully after he'd blasted earth to kingdom come... WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW! FREEZA IS FINALLY A PLANET BUSTER! Yeah Sensui's only a cliff buster, I get ya. That's all the feats he has ever shown for himself, we can't imply anything. You're getting it. Him beating Freeza doesn't mean he's a planet buster though... That would imply that he could destroy planets, and he can't destroy planets because he was never shown being able to. Plenty of Planet Busting, from Buu you mean?! Yeah! Goku even caught the sphere that Buu was using to almost blow up the planet! YOU'RE RIGHT! But where does that leave Vegeta, he can't be planet busting (in the manga), it was only implied he could, we can't use that.

Nope. You're not getting it. Can you show me a scan of Goku destroying a planet in any media? I saw him catching Buu's Planet Burst but, he never destroyed a planet. (Snaps finger) I know! He only has the durability to withstand a planet buster! Cool!

I agree with you on Raizen man, it's all baseless, Raizen wasn't even island busting. Beating Yusuke to within an inch of his life effortlessly while implying he was hungry and holding back ISN'T ISLAND BUSTING nah, he's a wall buster from blasting him across the Mazoku realm, that's the only thing he's got to use. You're right.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

yea i think yu yu hakusho verse should stay the same

 

[Joseph619]

Your definition of feats and powerscaling doesn't match with VSbattles wiki, this is exactly the reason I made this thread. YYH got benifit of unquantifiable hype and statements while Naruto and One Piece didn't. YYH as per VSbattles view of powerscaling and feats should be downgraded to match forum standard. Otherwise Rikudo Mode Naruto should be moonbuster as he beat Toneri with a tiny fraction of his prime power, and Prime Whitebeard would be continent buster

 

[AllanSaiyan]

but with your logic beerus won't be solar system level because that was whis statement

 

[Davy0]

Oh, somebody sees what the problem with that is. Hm...

 

[Joseph619]

but with your logic beerus won't be solar system level because that was whis statement

Beerus destroying a star would cause it to go supernova, destroying the local solar system

[1]

 

[Femto_Apostle]

@Joseph619, Look at my comment dude. Power Scaling, Statements, Feats, and Calcs all put him at at least Small Country Level.

 

[Davy0]

but with your logic beerus won't be solar system level because that was whis statement

Beerus destroying a star would cause it to go supernova, destroying the local solar system
[1]

How can we use that when we have no feats of him destroying a star, all we've seen him destroy are planets... I'm not getting what you're trying to IMPLY, Joseph-san.

 

[Joseph619]

@Joseph619, Look at my comment dude. Power Scaling, Statements, Feats, and Calcs all put him at at least Small Country Level.

That would make EMS Madara continent level for destroying 5 mountains. Either YYH gets downgraded, or One Piece and Naruto get upgraded. If the mods think Sensui is country level, then Fujitora and EMS Madara would have to be evaluated

 

[Joseph619]

but with your logic beerus won't be solar system level because that was whis statement

Beerus destroying a star would cause it to go supernova, destroying the local solar system
[1]

How can we use that when we have no feats of him destroying a star, all we've seen him destroy are planets... I'm not getting what you're trying to IMPLY, Joseph-san.

You are saying Beerus doesn't have feat of destroying star? Are you sure you're not trolling?

 

[Davy0]

No no no no no, he only destroyed 5 mountains, we can't say that he's Continent Level. We don't even know the calculations for continent level. We need feats to show that he is continent level, he needs to destroy an entire continent right? 5 mountains aren't a continent, they are just five mountains!

 

[Davy0]

Of course not. You said that we shouldn't use the context of Yu Yu Hakusho to supply characters with feats. How can we use what Whis implies to do so, that would be wrong!

 

[Femto_Apostle]

@Joseph619 Not really. If we looked at the destruction and scaled it, that doesn't make either of them that level. However, if you insist on wanting Fuji to be upgraded...

Here is a Low Balled Calc that puts Fuji at a Casual Island to Large Island Level.

Also, from this sca and this sca we can see that the rubble does in fact go slightly beyone the edge of the island, which lends even more credibility to the calc.

 

[Joseph619]

Of course not. You said that we shouldn't use the context of Yu Yu Hakusho to supply characters with feats. How can we use what Whis implies to do so, that would be wrong!

You're saying that Beerus never destroyed a star? I would like to see what the mods think of your comment

 

[Davy0]

He couldn't destroy a star, it was only implied he did. We need feats, we need to see the feats of him destroying a star on panel, all he did was destroy a couple of planets. And from what I know, that isn't a star, right?

 

[Joseph619]

He couldn't destroy a star, it was only implied he did. We need feats, we need to see the feats of him destroying a star on panel, all he did was destroy a couple of planets. And from what I know, that isn't a star, right?

Antvasima told me you're not a troll, but now I seriously doubt that

I will wait for Rocks75, nice talking to you

 

[Davy0]

I'm only a troll to those who have a bad case of double standards, sorry about that chum. (Waves)

 

[AllanSaiyan]

He couldn't destroy a star, it was only implied he did. We need feats, we need to see the feats of him destroying a star on panel, all he did was destroy a couple of planets. And from what I know, that isn't a star, right?

Antvasima told me you're not a troll, but now I seriously doubt that
I will wait for Rocks75, nice talking to you

he is using logic

 

[Joseph619]

Hopefully the mods wiil take care of the blatantly trollish comments, its ruining the thread discussion

 

[Davy0]

You know, if we were really trying to show this huge amount of bias that guy was talking about... Why didn't we follow the ranking system to the letter and make Raizen, Yomi, and Mukuro - Planet Busters in the least? I wonder. All that bias.

 

[Femto_Apostle]

Are you just going to ignore me?

 

[Davy0]

Hopefully the mods wiil take care of the blatantly trollish comments, its ruining the thread discussio

I was just using what you were using, why should we use any contexts for characters when feats supply the information we need. Why do we use information from sources from intelligent individuals who specialize in the area expertise and within the context they are trying to understand. Why are we trying to understand the verse the best we can so that we can create calculations for the verse. It's because feats aren't enough. It's because through context we find more evidence for characters to establish their strength. You think us biased just because we don't use a system that you, yourself use. You use double standards to employ tactics to make us look like we're foolish because you think your favorite series isn't getting the satisfaction you think it deserves. All you're doing is making yourself look like a troll, and as I love to do, I'll fight trolls with their own fire should they ever wish to come up with the same crap you showcased.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Okay, everyone calm down, we're getting nowhere right now. We just have to wait for input from other staff members.

 

[Davy0]

Are you just going to ignore me?

Yes, because that's what a double standard is. Ignoring what everyone else has because you think your points are superior, without having a care for the points of others.

 

[Joseph619]

Are you just going to ignore me?

Nope. Sorry for replying late. I personally suspect the cliff busting calc to be inaccurate just like Madara's chibaku tensei on NF. I would like to see the yield if the calc is done again on vsbattle. I would also like to see where that puts EMS Madara for destroying 5 mountains with shockwave. ATM, Im not disputing that Sensui is island level, but nothing more than that

 

[Romo_Vacen]

I agree with this post. But for biased reasons I believe they can by little feat that Sensui pulled out, can do it if he goes all the way.

 

[Unclechairman]

hyperbole

This is your only answer to the statements you posted? While the statement about Sensui being able to destroy the world is questionable (considering that similar statements are among the most common in fiction), just mashing the hyperbole button on the second one (the one about Sensui being able to destroy a country) is far from satisfactory. For one, the statement hardly resembles an actual hyperbole; for two, the statement seems to have come from a system designed to analyze potential threats and assign a threat level, and such a system would logically be designed to be as accurate as possible and not overstate (since that sends people into panic and complicates procedure); for three, from what I read, Sensui had a feat calced at 296 gigatons or more, which was not even done at anything close to his full power. You will have to provide a better reason for recalcing the feat; "it doesn't feel right" is not a legitimate reason. Tell us specifically what the calc did wrong or what mistakes it made and we may consider reevaluating it. And comparing the statement to others in Naruto does not make it illegitimate; it should be evaluted on it's own terms in it's own context. And from what I'm reading, there's much more evidence supporting it than aginst it

As for Raizen, his power level was over 20000000 in his prime. From taking a look at the wiki, Sensui's power level was over 20000. Prime Raizen is stronger than him by a factor of at least 1000x. Even if we assume Sensui was only Small Country level, going by the Attack Potency chart, this would still put Raizen at the threshold of Small Continent level. I'm not sure if power levels in Yu Yu Hakusho have the same problem as power levels in DBZ, but if they don't, well, here you go. I wouldn't put him lower than that.

Lastly, I despise your conduct so far in this thread, which has been to accuse the wiki, a senior admin (and based on nothing more than a profile image, no doubt), and most everyone who disagrees with you of bias. You were incredibly obnoxious and stubborn when you attempted to downgrade DBZ a while back based on the "split durability" fallacy, and from the looks of this, you haven't changed.