Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

[Imaginym]

We go back to the issue that ATK =/= Attack Potency.

It doesn't help either that the multiplying means it's just transfinite, not High 3-A infinity.

The ATK is game mechanics, the monsters are real. It's not like a physical BEUD actually attacks with 5-A AP because of his 4500 ATK in a shadow duel for example

What does Transfinite mean in this case? I forget.

 

[SomebodyData]

Imaginym - Higher than can be counted.

In this case, it would be higher than the duel disk counts. Although assuming ATK = AP it would mean anything higher than hologram level for the duel disk, so its not much to go off.

Overlord775 - Since when was that a thing?

An infinite loop would require Yugi repeatedly activating the effects ad Infinitum, the duel would never end.

That or multiply increases them x how many times was actually shown on screen.

 

[Imaginym]

Imaginym - Higher than can be counted.

In this case, it would be higher than the duel disk counts. Although assuming ATK = AP it would mean anything higher than hologram level for the duel disk, so its not much to go off.

Overlord775 - Since when was that a thing?

An infinite loop would require Yugi repeatedly activating the effects ad Infinitum, the duel would never end.

That or multiply increases them x how many times was actually shown on screen.

Ah. So Uncountably Infinite? If it's greater than Geh, who defaults to Infinite, why assume Geh is not Uncountably Infinite? & if Geh IS uncountably Infinite, doesn't that necessitate the Fusion be on a higher level of infinity still?

 

[Overlord775]

Since when was that a thing?

An infinite loop would require Yugi repeatedly activating the effects ad Infinitum, the duel would never end.

That or multiply increases them x how many times was actually shown on screen.

you know, basic ****** logic101, if a monster is real their attacks are real

No, there was an infinite amount of multiplication, the loop just happened really fast, the whole scene would make obsolutelly no sense otherwise

Saying that it can't be because it's not what logically should have happened is a bunch of bullshit, it would be just like saying that a character can't be FTL because that's impossible IRL

 

[Imaginym]

Here's the clip for the knights versus Geh (I spell it as such despite the subs because Geh is how it's written on the real life card printed.).
Note: When I refer to "Sub-Yugi", I mean what the subtitles for Yugi say, since I'm not entirely confident the subtitles are 100% accurate to the original Japanese language dialogue, & I think precision of meaning is important, here, especially.

Still have to find Duel Monsters Spirits vs Leviathan. I'll summarize the events of that clip as best I can.

• Hermos absorbs Obnoxious Celtic Guardian. Now cannot be destroyed by monsters with 1900 ATK or greater.
• Critias absorbs Attack Guidance Barrier. Sub-Yugi describes this as "It's the power to send a Monster's attack to another Monster!"

I would highly appreciate someone skilled in Japanese to transcribe the Japanese dialogue concering the effects involved, so that we can translate the original language statements for ideal clarity on how they function.

Note: Attack Guidance Barrier's previous use had the attack's new target gain 600 DEF & AGB would end the Battle Phase after the monsters involved in the effect battled. I'm unsure, but it could be argued that the attack & reflect loop contradicts this previous effect, given the Battle Phase ending part.

• Attack is redirected to Hermos (Despite the initial attack target being Geh & AGB being for an opponent's monster's attack & Critias is the one who absorbed AGB so it's redirecting its own ATK from Geh.) while Critias & Hermos's swords are both in Geh's head.
• Hermos's special ability is activated, to absorb the Attack Power of 3 monsters from Yugi's deck into his [Hermos's] own power.
• The Magnet Warriors, Alpha, Beta & Gamma are shown, who have a total ATK of 1400+1700+1500=4600.
• Based on reading the anime card's text, Hermos's ATK gain from this banish from deck effect seems to occur for every time it attacks this turn. https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Legendary_Knight_Hermos_(anime)

Also, normally Hermos redirects to Hermos, so why is AGB being used to redirect to Hermos also?

* This is apparently how the Loop is created?? (Maybe it has to do with the infinite loop symbol left on Geh's head?)

(The Magnet Warrior monsters do not have effects.)

Dartz: "Their Attack Points have surpassed Ge's infinite Attack Power?!"

• Yugi declares an attack with Timeaus, with Critias & Hermos leaving Geh, none of the Knights or Geh destroyed, by battle or otherwise, so far.
• ....Then activates Timeaus's ability to fuse, fusing with Hermos & Critias, fusing into Timeaus the Knight of Destiny.
• During the summon chant, Yugi says something subbed as "Gain the power of infinity!" Original Japanese language transcription & translation, please?
• Sub-Yugi: "The moment when the power of bonds overcomes the power of Darkness!"
• An infinity symbol behind TtKoD, the one on Geh's head leaves, then TtKoD slashes Geh.
• The gash is visible on both sides of Geh's portal; From where Yugi & Dartz are dueling, & where Joey, Pegasus & the others are. Though, only Joey acknowledges it, with his reaction of "What the Hell is that?!"
• As Dartz reacts in bafflement, an Orichalcos stone on Dart'z head audibly cracks, seemingly grayish black, but glowing Orichalcos green where it cracked.
• Bubbles underwater as a shadowy, serpentine mass swings about. (Leviathan awakened? In pain? Angered?)
• In flames, Geh disappears.
• As the camera pans to Dartz, the slash remains in the air.
• Timeaus the Knight of Destiny disappears.

Timeaus, the Knight of Destiny did not have an ATK value, nor even a card displayed.

I'll try to find the rest of the ep.

 

[Imaginym]

Oh. The Youtube video I linked is subbed differently from Crunchyroll's subs, & I can't get the Yugioh.com videos to work. Seriously, this is why transcription & translation is important.
On a rewatch, I noticed that after Dartz, shocked, says there should be no power able to surpass infinity/Divine Serpent Geh's Infinite ATK points Yugi asserts that if Dartz believes in the infinite darkness of the heart, then the bonds people believe in/have are also infinite.

CR's subs also says Hermos reflects back triple the ATK points it took when using the banish from deck effect.

 

[Zencha9]

That's because of Phoenix Ra's effect, not a hierarchy. Hence why Slifer and Obelisk still affect another and they can still affect regular Ra.

yeah when slifer attacked ra he was in god Phoenix marik says that ra is immortal and that no attack can harm it he doesn't mention anything regarding it like saying that it's the effect of god Phoenix's also no one addresses it either kaiba only talks about ra's 3rd effect (pay 1k destroy stuff)
marik did say "do you think lighting arrows could pierce fire armor" when slifer tried to use his effect on god Phoenix
also i don't remember ra getting affected by the other gods but correct me if i'm wrong

The anime card effect decreases the equipped monster's attack, not copies it.

can't read japanese but he did mention in the duel that he wants to use diabound's ability to copy blue eyes's attack

Yeah, but exclusively the Crimson Dragon (assuming he can summon him, can't say I remember that), not scaling to anything else. The subtitles state it because the black hole is still in process of forming that Yusei can momentarily not get consumed. Also FTL is for outrunning, this would be an unknown speed at best.

pretty sure that the Crimson Dragon gives yusei power when all the the sginer marks glow
i'm fine with dowgarding his speed if it's not FTL
but it doesn't really matter because he would scale to neo and have MFTL speed

 

[Zencha9]

also wanted to point out that the Orichalcos has powers from the infinite darkness

 

[Imaginym]

Alright, I'm gonna continue my analysis now.

• Leviathan appears from a glowing blue, portal-wave thingy behind Dartz, with Timeaus the Knight of Destiny's slash still visisble, despite the duel having ended. Leviathan swallows up Dartz & leaves.
• Leviathan's Moon Level storm occurs, & Yugi, Kaiba & Joey's bubbles fly out from where they're trapped, through the gash. Joey calls out for Mai, Kaiba stays silent, & Yugi calls out for Pegasus, as Pegasus, Mai & others remain there.
• The Legendary Knights are shown, hands out, saying "Chosen duelists, rejoin us!" THEN the gash disappears, as the souls are returned to their owners. Atem is seen holding Yugi's soul, asking "What's this?" The Knights nod, Atem shuts his eyes, & lets Yugi's soul return to his body.

(Atem has Soul Manipulation via being able to hold a soul?)

• As everyone awakes, Yugi is staring at Leviathan's still present blue portal.
• Atlantis rises. Yugi (Not Atem) surmises that Dartz's God must still be alive.
• This is also the time of the moon level storm.
• Some... American military people (I'm unclear who.) report that the Earthquake has caused a tidal wave moving towards the Atlantic Coast, & it will be 200 meters tall, It will reach the East Coast in about 1 hour.

Presumably this is casual as heck, because it happens as a result of Leviathan awakening, & if Leviathan is infinite power, creating an earthquake that causes usch a tidal wave is, comparatively, like, really weak; Why would what is at best, a Tier 6 (Maybe Tier 5; Can earthquakes go that high?) feat be remarkable for a (High) 3-A being?
* After the group ponders how to get to the floating city of Atlantis, Yugi decides to use Dartz's portal. Joey agrees & says he'll go as well. Tea opposes since they just got their souls back, adding "Doma is too much for us to handle!"
Yugi shakes his head & says "Anzu, you know that's not true. Unless we go and fight alongside the Duel Monsters, the God of Orichalcos can't be stopped." Joey agrees, saying he wants to restore Mai & Valon's souls. Kaiba heads for the portal, Mokuba calls for Kaiba, Kaiba tells the others to wait here. Yugi says he'll switch with his other self, but Tea says he's fine as he is, so he doesn't.

* In the... temple of the Orichalcos place, Yugi retrieves the God Cards from in the snake mouths. Atem notes this:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/77/EgyptianGodPowerStolen.png

"Their powers have been stolen." Yugi claims "But I'm sure these cards will help us." Atem: "Yeah. Let's hurry, partner!"
Joey: "The Soul cards on the wall are gone. Did that freak eat them all?" Yugi returns Hermos & Critias to Joey & Kaiba. Joey: "This card gives me confidence!" Kaiba: "This card always belonged to me."

• A vision of Dartz's face is projected over the portal he used, as his laughter is heard & he says "Come, chosen duelists!" Yugi: "Dartz!" Joey: "Let's go!" Kaiba: "You don't need to tell me."
• Yugi, Joey & Kaiba are teleported in, their bodies fading in from the top down, over a portal on the floor (Odd, since the one in the duel area was floating on its side to be walked into.) in the floating city of Atlantis, almost as high as the clouds. Seeing a big door with serpentine imagery on it, Yugi asks "Is Dartz there?" ...& switches to Atem. Gee, very considerate of Tea's feelings, Yugi. Atem says "Dartz!"
• Going to a ruined area, under a... gazebo, I think, they find an effigy or likeness of Dartz sitting on a throne, Dartz & said throne both appearing to be some kind of crystal. But when Yugi touches it, there's a crackling sound, & Dartz & his throne disintegrate. Kaiba's line follows, as can be told in the screenshot below:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/8/85/DartzPostDisintegrationAsDescribedByKaiba.png

* "Took you long enough, chosen duelists," says Dartz's voice, as a vision of his face appears in the roof of the gazebo(?) above them. "My god has already resurrected."
Yugi: "Impossible! The God of Orichalcos can't resurrect without our souls!" Dartz: "It's true that it hasn't completely revivied, but I can offer my own soul to compensate." Yug: "What?" The green pillar of light above Atlantis splits into 4, which curve around the continent & curve around its underside, becoming a great pillar, crackling like electricity, which goes to the surface of the ocean, striking it & opening up a whirlpool, which rapidly expands in size. Leviathan's eyes, glowing yellow, appear at the center of the whirlpool, & rise up, as Leviathan surfaces from the water, & flies towards the floating continent of Atlantis.
In about 10 seconds (Video time, by my rough measurement.), Leviathan has reached Atlantis (Which was very near the clouds.) & coiled around the city. Presuming clouds at 1000 KM elevation, this could be a speed feat somewhere in the ball park of Subsonic Speed, but it may need to be calculated. Useful in a series arguably lacking in speed feats, IMHO.
Now facing Leviathan before them, Yugi/Atem, Joey & Kaiba are shocked. Atem says "That's the God of Orichalcos!"
Joey says "It's huge!" & the group notices Dartz, embedded in Leviathan, with just the torso of his now purple body (With that teal hair.) sticking out. He seems to have some kind of... spider web with sticks at his base? Also, his hands are stuck in Leviathan, too.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/9/93/DartzAndLeviathan1.png

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/3f/DartzAndLeviathan2.png

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/f0/DartzAndLeviathan3.png

Atem: "He sacrificed his own soul!"
"Chosen duelists, no one can stop this god." Dartz says, without moving his mouth. Kaiba: "Be quiet! You're a shadow of your former self! And I'll be the one to end you, you ugly monster!" Dartz laughs & asks "Can you?" Leviathan roars, creating ripples in the air, & the duelists have to shield themselves. Joey says "We'll lose unless we go all out from the start!"
The following events are not part of a duel. They arm their Duel Disks, each glowing as it would during operation in a Duel. They then summon the following monsters, in order, to attack Dartz/Leviathan:

1. Yugi: Dark Magician, Summoned Skull & Kuriboh (?!?!?!?).
2. Joey: Flame Swordsman, Jinzo, Red Eyes Black Dragon.
3. Kaiba: Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon, Gadget Soldier (The thing he used one time, & just as Tribute fodder for Blue Eyes White Dragon against Ishizu?!) & Vorse Raider.
Yugi: "And...." Kaiba: "Come out, nameless dragons!" (I guess Kaiba doesn't know/believe their connection to the knights???) Joey: "Lend us your power!"
Yugi immediately activates Legend of Heart, saying "Show us your true forms!" (Because who likes dragons, right?)
Joey: "They're the legendary dragons' true forms!"
Yugi: "Monsters! Go!"
Flame Swordsman & Vorse Raider are shown charging, then The Legendary Knights, & Leviathan roars as it is stabbed in the face by the 5.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/aa/VeryHighQualityArt.png (If I could get the image in a higher quality, I would, for better visibility of who's who & stabbing where.)
Dark Magician & Summoned Skull charge their attacks, Gadget Soldier aims its cannon, Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon's 3 heads charge their attacks, Red Eyes Black Dragon & Jinzo charge their attacks, then....
Yugi: "Super Conductive Black Magic!" Joey: "Cyber Energy Black Flare!" Kaiba: "Ultimate Burst! Fire all rockets!"
Leviathan is hit at multiple points & reels back!

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/4/45/LeviathanBeingRangeAttacked.png

Its body can be seen moving about its coiled grip of the island, as it pulls its head back some from the floating city of Atlantis.
Yugi activates Multiply (Showing the card of course.), declaring "Timeaus absorbs Kuriboh's multiplication & self-destruction effects!" Timeaus: "Feel my sword! Justice Sword!"
Timeaus swings his sword, shooting a sword beam, causing multiple explosions all over, making Leviathan reel back. A big, white, spherical explosion erupts near Atlantis, nearly as big as the floating city itself. Joey: "We did it!" Yugi: "Everyone will be saved!"
& then we see Leviathan's silhouette emerge (Dartz curiously missing.) Kaiba: "What?" Yugi: "No way!" Joey: "You must be joking! Our attacks didn't hurt it at all?"
Leviathan roars, Yugi, Joey & Kaiba shield themselves, their monsters standing before them except for Yugi's. (Yugi why are your monsters such cowards??)
Leviathan begins charing its attack.
Joey: "Hold up! If we take that attack..."
Yugi tells Timeaus to absorb Big Shield Gardna's effect (Also, lol, what? Big Shield Gardna has no effect other than being immune to Spells that target it alone when face-down & changing to attack position after being attacked while in Defense Position. Also, it's kind of a jobber.) & has Timeaus activate his effect. Timeaus makes a big, rainbow-coloured barrier over Atlantis. Leviathan's beam collides with it, shattering & destroying all the monsters as the energy erupts. Yugi, Joey & Kaiba shield themselves with their arms/Duel Disks & back away & The 3 Legendary Knights descend in front of them, presumably to guard them. After firing its beam, & the barrier gone, Leviathan coils up higher into the sky.
Yugi: "One blast destroyed our monsters!"
The 3 Legendary Knights are still standing.
Joey: "Damn! At this rate, we can't win!"
Leviathan roars, Yugi gasps, Joey says "Here it comes again!" and a big, rainbow-coloured light appears in the sky, prompting everyone, even Leviathan (& back at the entranceway to Dartz's temple, Mokuba, Tea, Tristan (Still carrying Raphael.). notice it.)
Yugi: "This glow!"

That is a lot of text. I'll hope people go over it, & try to get to going over 183's parts of the monsters vs Leviathan, in the near future. Sorry about all the words.

 

[Smashtwig]

I'm late but, didn't Kaiba make Duel Academy? I vaguely recall that being a thing.

If this is the case, then of course the order would be Obelisk (because he favors and likes it), Ra, and then Slifer (because he dislikes Yugi)

 

[Overlord775]

Presumably this is casual as heck, because it happens as a result of Leviathan awakening, & if Leviathan is infinite power, creating an earthquake that causes usch a tidal wave is, comparatively, like, really weak; Why would what is at best, a Tier 6 (Maybe Tier 5; Can earthquakes go that high?) feat be remarkable for a (High) 3-A being?

In about 10 seconds (Video time, by my rough measurement.), Leviathan has reached Atlantis (Which was very near the clouds.) & coiled around the city. Presuming clouds at 1000 KM elevation, this could be a speed feat somewhere in the ball park of Subsonic Speed, but it may need to be calculated. Useful in a series arguably lacking in speed feats, IMHO.

the point of the wave is not because it's an impressive feat, but because it will cause massive amouts of dustruction

well, we already have MFTL scaling from Neos

 

[Imaginym]

As I said, I assume the earthquake/tidal wave is casual for Leviathan; Far from its peak.
Was scaling Gods/Leviathan to Neos outlined in the OP? (Also, there's a lot more stuff in that overview I noted that I'm kinda disappointed you didn't go over.)

 

[Overlord775]

TBh, i forgot aout scaling the speed, but yes, Dark Magicia would scale to Neos, thus the gods would upscale

[i'm sorry i didn't commet about the other stuff, but i don't have anything to say about it beside like that Athem should probably have Non-Phsical Interactins]

 

[Imaginym]

TBh, i forgot aout scaling the speed, but yes, Dark Magicia would scale to Neos, thus the gods would upscale

[i'm sorry i didn't commet about the other stuff, but i don't have anything to say about it beside like that Athem should probably have Non-Phsical Interactins]

Why would Dark Magician scale, if that's not too complex a matter?
(There is also the problem that BEUD & Dark Magician apparently failed to hurt Leviathan.)

 

[Overlord775]

because of the fact that it should be comparable to the other two ace monsters

[yeah, that causes quite a scaling problem when couppled with Season 5]

 

[SomebodyData]

Why would they scale? As far as I can tell, Neos never actually used his speed against any of the other ace monsters but did get one-shot by Stardust Dragon.

Also, the same movie shows Rainbow Dragon 4000ATK <<< Stardust Dragon ATK2500.

 

[Overlord775]

Neos clearly wasn't one shot by the first hit, just knocked down, as seen by the fact he was back on his feet in mere seconds

also, as shown in the video you linked, Neos couldn't properly react to Stardust's second attack, which shows the dragon is not much slower than him

 

[SomebodyData]

A two-shot isn't much better, though without the Crimson Dragon scaling does Stardust have any good feats to scale to?

No, he was intending to be in a defensive position the entire time (He keeps it up after the first attack)

 

[Zencha9]

if they were presented to be equal why should we assumed that they're not equal in speed ?

 

[SomebodyData]

Stardust Dragon nearly two-shot Neos, they really aren't presented as equals.

 

[Zencha9]

nearly
he didn't really one shot him and jaden was fighting cyber end and rainbow dragons before stardust came in

 

[SomebodyData]

Neos wasn't summoned yet and when Rainbow Dragon did attack, Neos was completely unaffected.

 

[Zencha9]

my point stands still he wasn't one shotted

 

[SomebodyData]

i already agreed to that, he was nearly two-shotted instead.

 

[Zencha9]

he would still scale regardless and speed shouldn't be any different

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh. The Youtube video I linked is subbed differently from Crunchyroll's subs, & I can't get the Yugioh.com videos to work. Seriously, this is why transcription & translation is important.
On a rewatch, I noticed that after Dartz, shocked, says there should be no power able to surpass infinity/Divine Serpent Geh's Infinite ATK points Yugi asserts that if Dartz believes in the infinite darkness of the heart, then the bonds people believe in/have are also infinite.

CR's subs also says Hermos reflects back triple the ATK points it took when using the banish from deck effect.

That's in reference to a theory Pegasus proposes while talking to Yugi inside the Leviathan; that humans can create infinite posibilities by the power of their I M A G I N A T I O N (no joke, this season is wack). Atem is basically corroborating Pegasus' theory.

 

[Overlord775]

@SomebodyData

He wasn't two shotted either, as we don't know what would happened if he got hit again, he could have as swell survived [though Jaden would have been very hurt]

also, to destroy the Melefic Truth Dragon the contined attack of all three ace monsters was needed, so it would make no sense if they two were either massivelly weaker [or massivelly slowed since the beams would have needed to move at comparable speed] than one another

 

[Zencha9]

oh yeah jaden got blasted along with neos and survived without much damage without much damage huh

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't see how needing the combined ATK scales to their AP- your arguments need to rely on something that isn't game mechanics.

I'm not sure we're seeing the same video, the guy was on the breaking point after the Stardust Dragon attack.

 

[Overlord775]

them multipling Stardust Dragon's attack points is what is game mechanics

Them needing to attack True Dragon togheter to destroy it is VERY much not and doesn't even have to do with attack points at all

what ? Neos was unfazed by Rainbow Dragon's attack

 

[Overlord775]

plus, monsters summoned by Paradox were physical, with Stardust having been summoned unto the field by him, so there's that too to show that it isn't just game mechanics

 

[SomebodyData]

Ye

No, it's on-screen that they had to combine their ATK points to surpass the dragon's attack points to beat it.

Yeah, that's what I said. It was the other guys that believe Rainbow Dragon & Paradox had been tiring Jaden w Neos.

Yes, when they were attacking Venice and destroying it. We also see that ATK points =/= actual AP when Rainbow Dragon does null to Neos but Stardust deals major damage, telling us that the monsters when real do not follow the game mechanics.

 

[Overlord775]

if you say that attack points are game mechanics, then that point is 100% null as it's just game mechanics

TBH, Raibow Dragon and Cyber End would have to AT LEAST be comparable to Stardust, as othewise Paradox would have no reason to have them summoned, it would be like having both a sling and a AK-47, so while weaker they shouldn't be cosmically so

They were also real when they were attacking Pegasus, which combined with the fact he were in Venice too, it means that in all instances they were real, so there's no reason to assume they weren't during the duel. get your head out of the gutter, my points have nothing to do with attack points, in fact yours are now being based on them.

 

[Zencha9]

they were real during the duel atem yusei and jaden were damaged in the duel and were blown away
but i'm not sure how to quantify that

 

[SomebodyData]

Overlord - Ye, I agree. Not sure what's the problem here.

Bruh, you literally just said it yourself, Rainbow had no effect on Neos but Stardust completely changed the tide of the battle. Most characters gradually increase their powerful grunts (or in this case summons) as the fight goes on, that's not new.

We literally SEE the ATK points on screen as an indicator for why they can destroy the Malefic Truth Dragon. Shouldn't you get your head out of the gutter? At least Zencha, while I disagree with him, isn't contradicting himself just one post later to save face.

Zencha - I ain't denying that the damage is real either- just pointing out ATK points clearly played a role in the duel.

 

[Zencha9]

Zencha - I ain't denying that the damage is real either- just pointing out ATK points clearly played a role in the duel.

oh fair
also i agree with SomebodyData ATK points shouldn't scale to AP it would literally break the scaling and it wouldn't make any sense

 

[Overlord775]

Overlord - Ye, I agree. Not sure what's the problem here.

Except that it what you are building the counterargument out of now.

Bruh, you literally just said it yourself, Rainbow had no effect on Neos but Stardust completely changed the tide of the battle. Most characters gradually increase their powerful grunts (or in this case summons) as the fight goes on, that's not new.

Paradox would have had litterally no points at going after Rainbow and Cyber if they were trillions of times weaker than Stardust, also considering how both Judai and Yubel reacted to Stardust as just "high amount of power" instead of "god tier monster beyond anything they've ver seen" the synchro monster being in completl separate legue than anything else makes no sense

Though at the end of the day it doesn't matter, as Neos first and foremost blocked a direct hit from Stardust, so he scales.

We literally SEE the ATK points on screen as an indicator for why they can destroy the Malefic Truth Dragon. Shouldn't you get your head out of the gutter? At least Zencha, while I disagree with him, isn't contradicting himself just one post later to save face.

We LITTERALLY see that what that amounts to is just them combining their attacks thogheter, with the card used for it further reinforcing the argument [Dark Spiral Force and Neos Spiral Force which explicidly show the other two monster attacking]

Says the man that has been constantly doing that

Zencha - I ain't denying that the damage is real either- just pointing out ATK points clearly played a role in the duel.

you can't say that attack points matter only when it's convinient to you, either they don't matter at all or they matter always, there's no other way around it.


The three ace monsters not scaling to each other completly contradicts the plot, as Yusei's sardust is never even implied to be trillions of times stronger than the other two's or Jusai's Neos as millions of times faster
The premise of the movie is about three duelist, equals from different eras and times, uniting their forces to save Duels themselves from an overwealming opponent.

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't understand, sorry. Can you explain how me claiming the duel was mostly game mechanics with real monsters is contradictory in this case, when that's been what we've seen regularly through most of the franchise?

You mean like how the Dark Signers sent regular dark synchro users after the Signers? Also trillions? Didn't we just cover how T.G.'s feat scales to no one other his own AP, not even its own durability given it would have killed everyone? Not to mention, Paradox isn't being amped by Yusei.

Yes- game mechanics meant to increase ATK. There is no contradiction there.

...Never said they mattered? Unless you mean like, in a duel where ATK is a game mechanics? Then yeah. of course they matter. But for the purposes of scaling and the profiles it doesn't. Had this all taken place outside a duel, I'd agree with you (Ignoring the issue with Stardust above). But your scaling primarily comes from the duel and its mechanics- not a fight like in season 5 for example.

 

[Overlord775]

I don't understand, sorry. Can you explain how me claiming the duel was mostly game mechanics with real damage is contradictory?

the fact that it WASN'T mostly game mechanics

You mean like how the Dark Signers sent regular dark synchro users after the Signers? Also trillions? Didn't we just cover how T.G.'s feat scales to no one other his own AP, not even its own durability given it would have killed everyone? Not to mention, Paradox isn't being amped by Yusei.

There's a very big difference between having a fodder monster and going out of your way to get a fodder monser, Paradox would have had litterall no reason to do it

Also, t.g.'s mere summoning caused a star to go supernova, which is High 4-C, so the rating would apply to people above Antinomi

and when did i say that Paradox is amped by Yusei ?

Yes- game mechanics meant to increase ATK. There is no contradiction there.

Yes- game mechanics to increese ATK one monster's attack when what they are doing is combining their attack. Completly contradictory.

...Never said they mattered? Unless you mean like, in a duel where ATK is a game mechanics? Then yeah. of course they matter. But for the purposes of scaling and the profiles it doesn't. Had this all taken place outside a duel, I'd agree with you (Ignoring the issue with Stardust above). But your scaling primarily comes from the duel and its mechanics- not a fight like in season 5 for example.

Duel Monsters is not a goddamn shonen, fights happen in duels and that only for 99.9% of the time, saying you can't scale even when 100% obvious and not contradictory because "Muh duel" would be like saying the you can only scale Bayblades or Bakugans fights outside of arenas.

It's complete nonsense and bias against the serie.

 

[Imaginym]

It could be argued that the plot of the heroic characters triumphing over the antagonist necessitates them also winning the duel. & thus, that, by necessity of the usual card game format, requires being or becoming of higher ATK's involvement in the victory.
Although, obviously, we can't just freely use any duel events for scaling without basis they're applicable to the "real" versions of those monsters, but I'm quite sure we've been able to manage that.