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Yu-gi-oh! Anime Upgrades

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GX and Duel Monsters upgrade

So, in the Bonds Beyond Time movie Neos tank a direct hit from Melefic Stardust Dragon, who as a Signer Dragon fought alongside and scales to Crimson Dragon, who is High 4-C

The movie is canon as seen by the fact Yusei had a flashback of Paradox, the main villain of the movie

also just in case someone says, Malefic Stardust has no reason to be weaker than the normal counterpart, as the malefic power only makes him evil and has even the same attack points

Dark Magician should scale too, as the three protagonists are protrayed as equal to each other, so their ace monsters should too, furthermore the combined strenght of the three of them was required to destroy Malefic Truth Dragon. Lastly and less importatly, all three mosters have the same attack power, which while a inconsistent matter shows that they are met to be equals

but that's not all.

In Zexal Yuma, who by episode 15-16 has seen a multitude of Number Cards as swell as galaxy-Eyes Photon dragon, treated classical monsters like Dark Magician and Blue Eyes, as swell gx ones like Neos and Flame Wingman as legendary monsters ad fan boying over them. He also outright shit himself a seeing 3 Blue Eyes out in the field at the same time. Furthermore the user of Numer 12: Crimson Shadow Armor Ninja, who specifically was focused on power through might above all else else, also considered the cards of the dojo as legedary and wanted them, with everything about that dojo being about old cards and Ruko himself playing stuff like Black Luster Soldier.

This whole makes so the old cards shown in episodes 15-16 should be at least comparable to Number Cards, who are High 4-C

In conclusion, Dark Magician, Neos and everybody who scales to them should be High 4-C

Non-god mosters of Duel Monsters are currently featless and in gx the only they have is Thunder giant passivelly creating a storm by being summoned, which mind you is also a feat from the very first season of GX, so it wouldn't an outlier. [especially because of the following upgrade]

God Cards Upgrade

So, for anyone who hasn't seen the Finale of Season 4 of the anime, at the climax point of Athem's Dartz, the latter summoned his strongest monster, the Divine Serpent.
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This bad boy had infinite attack points, with Athem referring to it as having "Infinite Strenght" trice

How did our favorite Pharaoh beat this beast ? simple, he activated the special ability of his knights, which allowed him to redirect Crisius' attack into Heremos, who then activate his ability to redirect back the attack at his fellow knight. This created an endless loop, multipling the strenght of the attack to infinity, as he then merged the three knights ito the Knight of Destiny.

The Knight of Destiny is and i quote "Your serpent's strenght may be infinity, but now there's a force beyond infinity."

So yeah, both of them are clearly High 3-A, but what has this to do with the god card ? getting to it.

The great Leviathan, as Dartz's god and who the former spend over 10 thousand years to try revive, should very easilly be vastly above the Divine Serpent, a beast the atlantian menged to summon relativelly easilly [Remember that the Orichalcos has the power to make monsters physical, as swell as the fact that in same season monsters were stated as real entities residing in a parralel world] and that he was only able to bring out thanks to the power of the Orichalcos [which was created by the great Leviathan], specifically with Orichalcos Kyutora and Orichalcos Shunoros. So the great Leviathan scales to the High 3-A.

Lastly, the god cards were the only thing that could stand against the Leviathan and defeat it, with every other monster not menaging to even scratch it and getting one-shotted, so much so that the serpent even initially tried to flee once they were ressurected. Furthermore, their power had been required to revive the great Leviathan. So High 3-A for the anime god cards, the Creator of Light and Zorc.

oh and one last thing since this could very easilly be cosidered an outlier, Obelisk himself as the ability to raise his own attack to Infinity, which further shows that the true power of the god cards is at that level [the reason why they aren't always at infinite power is easilly explainable by them being limited when summoned normally by a normal human (See Ra being limited to the cards tributed to summon it and the life points sacrificed and Slifer being limited by the number of cards the user has), akin to how Exodiaì's power was limited by the fact he was summoned by Ancient grandpa and thus couldn't beat Zorc]

Infinite Speed ?

See, Cridius' attack bounces back and fourth between himself and Heramos an infinite number of time, thus it traveled a infinite distance in finite time.

This should grant them Infinite attack speed and reactions, which would also apply to anyone who scales to them ... probably.
 
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it's BBT scaling **** me
adding to the BBT canon part one of the directors said that yusei used fusion summoning because he met yugi and jaden
not sure about zexal scaling to Dark magician and such i mean yes they are consider legendary monsters and thus should scale for monster profiles but i'm not sure if zexal happens in the same universe as the rest of the series so i'm not sure if humans with monsters scale to them like jaden&yugi
i would like for high 3-A gods but i'm not sure if infinite energy still qualafies for High 3-A so netural
also netural on speed
 
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I agree with infinity damage/tier 3 you don’t get more blatant unless you bust a universe.

Neutral on speed.

I guess the tier 4 is fine?
Yu-Gi-Oh scaling is all a bit wack in general since it’s a card game anime.
 
card game anime
triggered
jokes aside yes you can scale card shows if they fight each other or stated to be comparable and such
also spirit energy is still a thing and it's still around from DM to 5D's so you can still scale monsters by spirit energy/BA
 
But then you might as well just scale by attack points since that is what decides who can fight who.
 
But then you might as well just scale by attack points since that is what decides who can fight who.
but we never scale them by attack points? when neos blocks malefic stardust he's not playing the game it's a duel spirit
 
I guess? (but don’t they have the same attack, it would still be consistent with either.) Eh, still weird but I get it.
 
Ultimate Blue Eyes is 4500 attack while 3 Blue Eyes are 9000 attack. You’d think they’d be the same, but they aren’t. That’s why we don’t scale by attack- Attack Values are inconsistent and likely Game Mechanics (For the Card game, which canonically exists in the Anime and are constantly playing, in case someone says something.)
 
Are we really using the Infinity attack points thing again? SomebodyData might flip.
 
Not really, the main arguments for it are the statements of infinite strenght/force (not attack points) and the multipling to infinity
 
Agreed on High 4-C Dark Magician, the movie is very clearly canon and even if the DM in Zexal wasn't Yugi's, Yugi's should easily be comparable or stronger. Neutral on High 3-A Egyptian Gods. Disagreed with Infinite speed.
 
I’m not sure we should do that.

I could be wrong, but wasn’t Kibas Blue Eyes shown to have equal to or better feats than the Gods in the anime did? Like fighting Zorc longer?

And I mention that because it would imply the idea that the god cards aren’t inherently superior to everyone just by rank alone.
 
any one who scales to yugi&dark magician after battle city S3 judai and would get high 4-C
and that includes zorc blue eyes exodia dartz/leviathan
for GX it would be yubel light of destruction gentle Darkness/judai and Darkness
5d's is the same
 
I’m not sure we should do that.

I could be wrong, but wasn’t Kibas Blue Eyes shown to have equal to or better feats than the Gods in the anime did? Like fighting Zorc longer?

And I mention that because it would imply the idea that the god cards aren’t inherently superior to everyone just by rank alone.
blue eyes is considerd a god and was stated to be equal to the gods multiple times it's the reason why kaiba and aknadin tried to torture kisara and make her kaiba's KA is because she had an insane amount of power comparable to the gods
 
I do want these things to happen but like, wouldn't that be game mechanics?

Any child could just scratch out the ATK points on a card and replace it with infinity.

BBT Scaling seems good if it's really canon, but then again, them being equal to recent cards are just because attack points right?

idk, but I think at least Obelisk should be H3A due to his special ability, and the others can scale off of that.

Also, what would this make the Sacred Beasts, they are comparable to a degree if I recall, Uria, Hamon, and Raphael?
 
nope, scratching out the numbers would litterally do nothing, as the monsters are real creatures coming from another dimesion, so modifing the card wouldn't affect them

also, the only time we ever seen cards being changed is when Yuya reality warped Pendulum into existance

the aces being equal to recent cards is not because of attack points, but because of the sheer hype they are given by characters that well know the power of the Number Monsters
 
Not really, the main arguments for it are the statements of infinite strenght/force (not attack points) and the multipling to infinity
While there are statements, they could be referring to the monster's actual stats in the game it was summoned in. Was the monster real? Yes. But anime duelists make a big deal out of big Attack Points & Life Points & damage all the time. It seems plausible they might refer to high ATK values in gameplay with such gravity as they did.

There's also the issue of you can't multiply finite values into infinity with a finite timeframe, but that's exactly what Yugi did. Math does not work that way. (Unless Infinite Speed, I guess?)

Also also, Leviathan doesn't have any 3-A Feats BESIDES scaling to The Divine Serpent Geh. It's got absorbing the Egyptian Gods, absorbing stars & maybe blotting out the sun, & the Moon Level storm, as well as a lot of clashes with the Dragon forms of The Legendary Knights.
It has several feats lower than infinity. I'd think it's questionable.
Not to mention I'm unsure this is Obelisk using infinite power in the clash, & Atem didn't have his True Name against Leviathan.
What's more is it's stated the God Cards are almost completely powerless when retrieved, which I'm skeptical meshes with having infinite power. (& hurts Leviathan for losing to nearly powerless versions of them after absorbing most of their power way earlier in the arc, & then lots more other power later.)

& before you say Obelisk: When?
Obelisk having Infinite ATK happened, I believe in.... The Pyramid of Light, which is a 4Kids canon movie?

The Gods aside, I'd also question the Legendary Dragons/Knights scaling to Leviathan; When Yugi summoned Knight Timeaus from his Duel Disk & used Multiply on it, Timeaus barely did any damage. & even after destroying Leviathan's physical form, when he came out of Yugi's Duel Disk to attack the spirit form, he was very quickly swatted away, if my memory serves.

I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves, during the anime (Dunno about the manga.) they're shown to kill the people involved in the creation of their cards, until eventually, Pegasus, who had the Milennium Eye, had to go & paint their cards himself.
 
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While there are statements, they could be referring to the monster's actual stats in the game it was summoned in. Was the monster real? Yes. But anime duelists make a big deal out of big Attack Points & Life Points & damage all the time. It seems plausible they might refer to high ATK values in gameplay with such gravity as they did.
In the season monsters where clear and cut stated to be real and come from another dimesion, with the power of Orichalcos being able to summon them even without a duelling disk.

There's also the issue of you can't multiply finite values into infinity with a finite timeframe, but that's exactly what Yugi did. Math does not work that way. (Unless Infinite Speed, I guess?)
it was an infinite loop, so he multiplied the attack by 3 x infinity basically

Also also, Leviathan doesn't have any 3-A Feats BESIDES scaling to The Divine Serpent Geh. It's got absorbing the Egyptian Gods, absorbing stars & maybe blotting out the sun, & the Moon Level storm, as well as a lot of clashes with the Dragon forms of The Legendary Knights.
He also was threatening both the normal world and the dimension of the duel monsters iirc

also, those are more lesser feats than outliers as those feat were either casual or passive.

Also, he fought the legedary dragons in a much weaker state, meanwhile in his revived state he no-selled their attacks and one shot them

& before you say Obelisk: When?
Obelisk having Infinite ATK happened, I believe in.... The Pyramid of Light, which is a 4Kids canon movie?
fair point, tbh i remembered Kaiba using the ability during Battle City too, my bad

The Gods aside, I'd also question the Legendary Dragons/Knights scaling to Leviathan; When Yugi summoned Knight Timeaus from his Duel Disk & used Multiply on it, Timeaus barely did any damage. & even after destroying Leviathan's physical form, when he came out of Yugi's Duel Disk to attack the spirit form, he was very quickly swatted away, if my memory serves.
The Legedary Dragons/Knights wouldn't scale to High 3-A since like you said they got completly obliterated, they would only have the possily infinite speed since they had to react to their attack to bounce it back and forth between them

I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves
mind further elaborating ?
 
In the season monsters where clear and cut stated to be real and come from another dimesion, with the power of Orichalcos being able to summon them even without a duelling disk.
Yes. I'm very aware of & don't deny that but anime duelists still get very dramatic about high values. Divine Serpent Geh is also featless outside of that duel, AFAIK, & seems to be a different being from Leviathan.
it was an infinite loop, so he multiplied the attack by 3 x infinity basically
No quantity of 2,800 added to 2,800 will equal infinity, except an infinite quantity, which you can't achieve in a finite timeframe without infinite speed. (Also, infinite speed to KO an enemy with infinite AP/Durability?)
That's one of my biggest issues, the math is faulty; Yugi use the monster's abilities in the duel to do said loop, but the math doesn't actually work out.
He also was threatening both the normal world and the dimension of the duel monsters iirc
I'm unsure if we have evidence that the Duel Monsters world is a whole Universe, & I'm not sure we can use evidence from the then-non-existent content of a sequel series.
also, those are more lesser feats than outliers, also he fought the legedary dragons in a much weaker state, while in his revived state he no-sell their attacks and one shot them
Having so many more lesser feats makes the higher feats more suspect. & yes, as I said, post-resurrection Leviathan effortlessly tanked numerous Knight Timeaus clones & even in a weakened spirit form, smacked away Knight Timeaus.
In the distant past, Timeaus was struck in the eye by Dartz's sword charged with lightning (Unclear what this did.) then beam clashed with Leviathan, with Timeaus's beam having the help of an army. Both of them seemingly ended up sealed away/needing to regain their strength as a result of this.
IIRC, at the start of the arc, a Crystal from Leviathan clashes (Using tornados this time, I think?) with Dragon Timeaus & doesn't exactly stomp, despite the God Cards having already been stolen at the time, IIRC.
fair point, tbh i remembered Kaiba using the ability during Battle City too, my bad
If anyone can get Kaiba vs Duel Computer footage, that'd be useful!
...But it may be problematic that after Obelisk & BEUD clash, the system overloads, & there's a bunch of destruction; Thus, even if Obelisk DID achive Infinite ATK in that scene, we may have to count the destruction over it, which is far from infinite.
The Legedary Dragons/Knights wouldn't scale to High 3-A since like you said they got completly obliterated, they would only have the possily infinite speed since they had to react to their attack to bounce it back and forth between them


mind further elaborating ?
My apologies. I typed in a hurry & forgot I needed to finish that part. I edited in what I forgot to say before your post, I swear, & it's right at the end, but for convenience's sake, I'll repost it. (Apologies for my negligence &/or if I seem condescending!)

Quote myself: "I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves, during the anime (Dunno about the manga.) they're shown to kill the people involved in the creation of their cards, until eventually, Pegasus, who had the Milennium Eye, had to go & paint their cards himself."

This is supported by them able to affect the real world even in regular duels, so them having power even as cards being created or before that may have evidence, too.
1 other evidence for it... is also from Pyramid of Light (The aforementioned 4Kids canon movie) since Kaiba's systems get overloaded & damaged AGAIN, but this time by Obelisk attacking with Infinite ATK... in a simulation.

IDK if being able to affect the real world from within a simulation is a 3-A or higher feat or whatever, especially as a result of attacking with infinite ATK (In your simulated world.) & if so, how do we treat damaging the real world? Do we treat it as infinite in the simulation, tier [DESTRUCTION YIELD] or whatever for the real world....
....but good job 4Kids Obelisk.
 
Yeah im very skeptical on the infinite power stuff, especially when this isnt the first time it was brought up and rejected. Again, has anyone asked SomebodyData to comment here?

He's one of the best users and staff to ask to evaluate when it comes to Yu-Gi-Oh!
 
I recall the attack points being infinity when Yugi fought Marik


But other than that (& Pyramid of Light, & the Duel Computer, which we've yet to check.) Obelisk hasn't done the Infinite ATK thng. So it's 1 instance or 2 instances. & didn't it fail to KO Marik nonetheless? (As well as to destroy Ra, but Divine Hierarchy, right?)
& didn't Obelisk along with Slifer & Ra lose to Zorc, who's best feat was moving the moon via TK? (Not to mention the whole being described as powerless after being retrieved before being used to fight Leviathan; A being with infinite power shouldn't be able to get near 0 power; Infinity is infinity, no matter how much you subtract.)

Maybe it's Infinite ATK via the effect, but not only is it circumstantial, Obelisk lacks feats SHOWING infinite power.
As said, the statements could be referring simply to the ATK values (& ATK & LP & damage are treated as big deals.) so it might not refer to actual power. So that's ambiguous, IMHO, & while I can see the case, it hurts the case for Infinite AP Obelisk that it lacks feats with infinite yield. (& has lost to at least 1 character with arguably finite yields, if we count Zorc.)
 
Theres also the fact that infinite power in general can tend to be hyperbolic and needs to have some context behind it before we can take it as literal (otherwise Kirby would be riding the 3-A train with Magalor).

And if we dont accept things like Low 2-Cs becoming 2-C with infinite power, or 2-Cs/2-Bs becoming 2-A with infinite power, why would any tier grant 3-A or High 3-A with infinite power?
 
Yes. I'm very aware of & don't deny that but anime duelists still get very dramatic about high values. Divine Serpent Geh is also featless outside of that duel, AFAIK, & seems to be a different being from Leviathan.
geh only appeared in a duel

also it was created through the power of the Orichalcus, which originates from the great Leviathan

No quantity of 2,800 added to 2,800 will equal infinity, except an infinite quantity, which you can't achieve in a finite timeframe without infinite speed. (Also, infinite speed to KO an enemy with infinite AP/Durability?)
That's one of my biggest issues, the math is faulty; Yugi use the monster's abilities in the duel to do said loop, but the math doesn't actually work out.
(infinite speed to bouce the attack back and forth an attack going infinite speed)

the math tecnically works out as infinite multiplication would equal infinity, it's just that logically speaking it shouldn't have been possible to pull i that timeframe, but you know fiction be fiction

I'm unsure if we have evidence that the Duel Monsters world is a whole Universe, & I'm not sure we can use evidence from the then-non-existent content of a sequel series.
Iirc it was stated to be a parralel dimension, which would maye imply them to e equal in size, though gx does confirm that the duel spirits' world is the same size as the normal one, two sides of the same coin

Having so many more lesser feats makes the higher feats more suspect. & yes, as I said, post-resurrection Leviathan effortlessly tanked numerous Knight Timeaus clones & even in a weakened spirit form, smacked away Knight Timeaus.
ehhhh, not really, it depends on how those feats were made, which in Leviathan's case were very casual

In the distant past, Timeaus was struck in the eye by Dartz's sword charged with lightning (Unclear what this did.) then beam clashed with Leviathan, with Timeaus's beam having the help of an army. Both of them seemingly ended up sealed away/needing to regain their strength as a result of this.
IIRC, at the start of the arc, a Crystal from Leviathan clashes (Using tornados this time, I think?) with Dragon Timeaus & doesn't exactly stomp, despite the God Cards having already been stolen at the time, IIRC.

Back at Atlantis the Leviathan didn't have 10 thousand years worth of souls that Dartz snatched, so it was much weaker

also, tbf, the thing at the start of the arc was just a eye, so we could

If anyone can get Kaiba vs Duel Computer footage, that'd be useful!
...But it may be problematic that after Obelisk & BEUD clash, the system overloads, & there's a bunch of destruction; Thus, even if Obelisk DID achive Infinite ATK in that scene, we may have to count the destruction over it, which is far from infinite.
Here at 15:09

though it's not clear if that's what's happening

It caused no destruction directly tho, the machine exploded because it overloaded

My apologies. I typed in a hurry & forgot I needed to finish that part. I edited in what I forgot to say before your post, I swear, & it's right at the end, but for convenience's sake, I'll repost it. (Apologies for my negligence &/or if I seem condescending!)

Quote myself: "I would like to bring up, though that The Egyptian Gods seem to have a sort of... reverse Immersion? Unsure what the ability is called, but if my memory serves, during the anime (Dunno about the manga.) they're shown to kill the people involved in the creation of their cards, until eventually, Pegasus, who had the Milennium Eye, had to go & paint their cards himself."

This is supported by them able to affect the real world even in regular duels, so them having power even as cards being created or before that may have evidence, too.
1 other evidence for it... is also from Pyramid of Light (The aforementioned 4Kids canon movie) since Kaiba's systems get overloaded & damaged AGAIN, but this time by Obelisk attacking with Infinite ATK... in a simulation.

IDK if being able to affect the real world from within a simulation is a 3-A or higher feat or whatever, especially as a result of attacking with infinite ATK (In your simulated world.) & if so, how do we treat damaging the real world? Do we treat it as infinite in the simulation, tier [DESTRUCTION YIELD] or whatever for the real world....
....but good job 4Kids Obelisk.
i have no idea how to handle this, but isn't Pyramid of Light not-canon ?

But other than that (& Pyramid of Light, & the Duel Computer, which we've yet to check.) Obelisk hasn't done the Infinite ATK thng. So it's 1 instance or 2 instances. & didn't it fail to KO Marik nonetheless? (As well as to destroy Ra, but Divine Hierarchy, right?)
& didn't Obelisk along with Slifer & Ra lose to Zorc, who's best feat was moving the moon via TK? (Not to mention the whole being described as powerless after being retrieved before being used to fight Leviathan; A being with infinite power shouldn't be able to get near 0 power; Infinity is infinity, no matter how much you subtract.)

Maybe it's Infinite ATK via the effect, but not only is it circumstantial, Obelisk lacks feats SHOWING infinite power.
As said, the statements could be referring simply to the ATK values (& ATK & LP & damage are treated as big deals.) so it might not refer to actual power. So that's ambiguous, IMHO, & while I can see the case, it hurts the case for Infinite AP Obelisk that it lacks feats with infinite yield. (& has lost to at least 1 character with arguably finite yields, if we count Zorc.)

Marik used an attack negation spell to stop Obelisk's attack, since even if you have infinite power abilities that don't care how powerfull you are will still work

Zorc's plan was to plundge the universe into darkness, so he's universal by himself, also in the dub he was stated to be the creator of the Shadow realm

also, this is fiction, just because draining infinite power would logically be impossible it doesn't mea we should disregard it, it would be like ignoring every FTL feat in fiction because it would physically impossile irl


@ProfessorKukui4Life

Kirby's are first off-hand statements, second not even as close as explicit as the Knights multipling their attack to infinity or Obelisk's attack becoming infinite

Low 2-C can't become 2-C via infinite amps because the difference between the two tiers isn't infinity, it's immesurable (same applies for 2-C/2-B to 2-A i think, but don't quote me on that)
 
The point I made still stands. Any "infinite power" claim needs to have actual context backed up with it before we take it as literal instead of a grain of salt. And im not seeing how either of what Obelisk does (which has been very much contested as game mechanics here for several reasons) or the Knights multiplying attacks up to Infinity makes it any better than Magalor being stated to have infinite power.

My second point remains the same too. Infinite Power x any tier is not tier 3, nor do we use it to upgrade people. If anything, infinite power shouldnt be given a tier in the first place beyond limitless stamina. Unless of course, say, 3-A Andriod 17 and 18 is a thing now and we upgrade all of DB pre Super to tier 3.
 
It wasn’t just stated, it was shown with the attack point box, that is far more literal then just a one off statement. It literally means “infinite damage with a single attack.” So High 3-A.
Same with the Multiplication, it isn’t just a statement, we see it happen.
 
^^^^^
that alone makes it much more valid than the Kirby stuff

also, the god cards and the geh derive their power from things outside of the game, so it can't be game mechanics

also there's the fact that the mosters battling in duels are actual monsters, so it's not just a card game

My second point remains the same too. Infinite Power x any tier is not tier 3, nor do we use it to upgrade people. If anything, infinite power shouldnt be given a tier in the first place beyond limitless stamina. Unless of course, say, 3-A Andriod 17 and 18 is a thing now and we upgrade all of DB pre Super to tier 3.
We actually do that, see Monica Pinkston and Tart

also Endless Power =/= Infinite Power, the two androids are the clearly estalished as the former, the stuff here is the latter
 
It wasn’t just stated, it was shown with the attack point box, that is far more literal then just a one off statement. It literally means “infinite damage with a single attack.” So High 3-A.
Same with the Multiplication, it isn’t just a statement, we see it happen.
Which is using card game mechanics as the supporting point for it. Not exactly "far more literal" the way your making it to be. And unlike this, Magalors feats are far far more closer to the idea of Universe level than simple multiplication or what a card game duel reads as, only being denied due to hyperbole being the wall that stops the upgrade.

And again, infinite power not being tiered. Again, are 3-A Android 17 and 18 a thing now for having infinite power?
 
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