Yhwach vs Wonder Of U

[Hellscream]

Yhwach vs Wonder Of U
Both at their strongest, this includes sternritter abilities for yhwach
Speed equalized

Tooru (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)

All things under Heaven and Earth... and the connections between them...!! None of them will be on your side!! If you move 'just an inch'[...]. An all-out attack of a power called 'Disaster' will be coming for you!!Rai Mamezuku Tooru is an alleged medical student and the ex of Yasuho Hirose...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yhwach

Yhwach (ユーハバッハ, Yuhabahha?) is the Father of the Quincy, the monarch of the Wandenreich, and the son of the Soul King, known by the designation "A" - The Almighty. As a baby, Yhwach was incapable of sight, speech, or even the slightest movement, but never feared or despaired, as he knew he would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Deceived3596]

Yhwach passively soul crushes both Tooru and WOU, passively nullifies all of WOU's haxs with The Almighty and absorbs WOU into himself, thus gaining its abilities and negging its AE Type 2.

Yhwach mega stomps.

 

[azontr]

gay match.

 

[Axl233]

gay match.

No u

 

[azontr]

No u

I am gay, yes.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I am gay, yes.

That's gay

 

[azontr]

That's gay

That is correct.

 

[Torsin]

That is correct.

Common Azontr W.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Wasn't this already done before with the result being that it was inconclusive lol. (the thread was. Nobody came to an agreement and it just dropped there)

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Yhwach passively soul crushes both Tooru and WOU, passively nullifies all of WOU's haxs with The Almighty and absorbs WOU into himself, thus gaining its abilities and negging its AE Type 2.

Yhwach mega stomps.

It's crazy as to how Tooru doesn't matter here.  (because he's irrelevant.)

 

[Peak]

wait, what was Tooru's wincon supposed to be here? I don't see any way for him to even touch Yhwach lol

 

[Robo432343]

make yhwach building lvl

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Wasn't this already done before with the result being that it was inconclusive lol. (the thread was. Nobody came to an agreement and it just dropped there)

https://vsbattles.com/threads/mustache-man-vs-tooru.132408/#post-4549912

So uh, yeah.

 

[Hellscream]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/mustache-man-vs-tooru.132408/#post-4549912

So uh, yeah.

Yhwach has gotten multiple significant buffs since then afaik

 

[Peak]

then Yhwach stomp passively?

 

[Arcker123]

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Yhwach has gotten multiple significant buffs since then afaik

still looks like inconclusive to me. shrug

 

[Peak]

Isn't it NLF to assume that Yhwach could steal and use abstract existence type 2? Has he ever managed to do something like that in Bleach?

 

[Arcker123]

Isn't it NLF to assume that Yhwach could steal and use abstract existence type 2? Has he ever managed to do something like that in Bleach?

Type 2 Abstract existence doesn't require special NPI to touch

Also there is an argument for it but

 

[Peak]

Type 2 Abstract existence doesn't require special NPI to touch

Also there is an argument for it but

I'm not saying that Yhwach won't be able to interact, but asking if he could steal the AE and use it, theoretically it should be an NLF

 

[Purgy]

Yhwach absorbing Tooru should be enough I think

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

WoU is not tied to Tooru's existence.

 

[Purgy]

WoU is not tied to Tooru's existence.

But Tooru can direct it and is seemingly exempt from Calamity, two things that would apply to Yhwach after he absorbs Tooru, also, I'm not seeing why Yhwach can't just absorb WoU itself, you don't need anything special to absorb a character with AE Type 2.

Lastly, WoU fundamentally manipulates logic which Yhwach has resistance to through The X-Axis.

 

[Peak]

But Tooru can direct it and is seemingly exempt from Calamity, two things that would apply to Yhwach after he absorbs Tooru, also, I'm not seeing why Yhwach can't just absorb WoU itself, you don't need anything special to absorb a character with AE Type 2.

Lastly, WoU fundamentally manipulates logic which Yhwach has resistance to through The X-Axis.

so to be sure, as I understand it, you're saying that Yhwach doesn't necessarily steal abstract existence, but Tooru does and so Tooru will give Yhwach abstract existence?

 

[Purgy]

so to be sure, as I understand it, you're saying that Yhwach doesn't necessarily steal abstract existence, but Tooru does and so Tooru will give Yhwach abstract existence?

Why does Yhwach need abstract existence?

 

[Peak]

Why does Yhwach need abstract existence?

Hm, true, I focused on this so much when I saw it being argued that I forgot he doesn't have to, but could Yhwach nullify his abstract existence? Because if abstract existence doesn't come from Tooru, I think it would be NLF to say that Yhwach can nullify it

 

[Peak]

Wouldn't it be right for Yhwach to incapacitate or something?

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

But Tooru can direct it and is seemingly exempt from Calamity, two things that would apply to Yhwach after he absorbs Tooru, also, I'm not seeing why Yhwach can't just absorb WoU itself, you don't need anything special to absorb a character with AE Type 2.

Lastly, WoU fundamentally manipulates logic which Yhwach has resistance to through The X-Axis.

i don't see as to why WOU wouldn't move away either, he does that a lot, so i doubt he'd just stand there and let Yhwach hit him. Also about sternritter abilities, can anybody prove he'd use it in character? Because I've heard from other bleach readers that he supposedly has never used them before. Is this true? If not, then can anybody be so nice to prove why that's false?

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Also. I should say something about Tooru. WOU is not tied to Tooru's existence, at all. WOU is sentient and it's own character, not even being Tooru's stand either. So WOU was never Tooru's stand, Tooru's ability was merely to control, but WOU itself is a distinct entity that will exist forever regardless if Tooru exists or not, and is a natural law of the world. Tldr, WOU is its own entity and cognizant, he just has the same goals as tooru, but he doesn't have to listen to his will or orders. Also, killing Tooru is basically the best case for WOU, as he basically is kinda more free, and no longer is bounded by stand rules such as "Hurting the user hurts the stand and vice versa".

amogus.

 

[Purgy]

i don't see as to why WOU wouldn't move away either, he does that a lot, so i doubt he'd just stand there and let Yhwach hit him. Also about sternritter abilities, can anybody prove he'd use it in character? Because I've heard from other bleach readers that he supposedly has never used them before. Is this true? If not, then can anybody be so nice to prove why that's false?

Yhwach can teleport and then absorb WoU or manipulate fate and then absorb it, but it's largely irrelevant anyway as absorbing Tooru is much easier and achieves pretty much the same thing.

As for the Sternritter abilities, when the OP of the thread says "this includes sternritter abilities for yhwach", I think it's fair to say he's willing to use them, otherwise what would even be the point of letting him have them?

 

[StekFence]

I think it's fair to say he's willing to use them, otherwise what would even be the point of letting him have them?

He might have them, but it doesn’t have to mean he’s gonna bust it out as a first, or even a tenth move. It just means it’s a possibility.

 

[Purgy]

He might have them, but it doesn’t have to mean he’s gonna bust it out as a first, or even a tenth move. It just means it’s a possibility.

And given his insane precog and information analysis, he'd know exactly when to use them

But this is pointless anyway as Yhwach doesn't actually need the Sternritter abilities to win here, The Almighty is enough as all he needs to do is absorb Tooru.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

And given his insane precog and information analysis, he'd know exactly when to use them

But this is pointless anyway as Yhwach doesn't actually need the Sternritter abilities to win here, The Almighty is enough as all he needs to do is absorb Tooru.

Like I said above, absorbing Tooru does nothing here. and Infact, getting tooru rid off here would just be helping out WOU here.

Yhwach can teleport and then absorb WoU or manipulate fate and then absorb it, but it's largely irrelevant anyway as absorbing Tooru is much easier and achieves pretty much the same thing.

As for the Sternritter abilities, when the OP of the thread says "this includes sternritter abilities for yhwach", I think it's fair to say he's willing to use them, otherwise what would even be the point of letting him have them?

I still don't see as to why WOU still wouldn't move away/go away (which is what he does in character, practically get the **** away) if he sees Yhwach just be unaffected by calamity, and WOU can even teleport (which WOU can do, as its written in his profile with scans to prove it)
Also trying to pursue WOU in any sort of way, like trying to aim, chase, think of pursuing him, etc, would all fall under calamity, so idk how Yhwach would even think of approaching WOU here when he has to deal with other shit like some durability neg pebble or plane or leaf or whatever.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Like I said above, absorbing Tooru does nothing here. and Infact, getting tooru rid off here would just be helping out WOU here.

I still don't see as to why WOU still wouldn't move away/go away (which is what he does in character, practically get the **** away) if he sees Yhwach just be unaffected by calamity, and WOU can even teleport (which WOU can do, as its written in his profile with scans to prove it)
Also trying to pursue WOU in any sort of way, like trying to aim, chase, think of pursuing him, etc, would all fall under calamity, so idk how Yhwach would even think of approaching WOU here when he has to deal with other shit like some durability neg pebble or plane or leaf or whatever.

"OP said stenritter abilities" ok but that doesn't really prove he can use it in character, can he? Can you show an instance of him using it in battle in character please?

Also I checked this "X Axis resists Logic" But that statement in the scan is quite ambiguous based on that one scan alone. Doesn't even sound like logic manip resistance, unless one of the dudes there manipulate logic? If so, where? (Don't see it on Yhwach's profile in the stenritter)
Though even if we did take that ambiguous statement at a face value, I don't see as to how WOU's logic manip is the same as that dude's logic manip in how they both work + their potency. So idk. anyways here's this "ambiguous statement" I was talking about.

https://imgur.io/a/gtD9h

 

[Purgy]

Like I said above, absorbing Tooru does nothing here. and Infact, getting tooru rid off here would just be helping out WOU here.

I still don't see as to why WOU still wouldn't move away/go away (which is what he does in character, practically get the **** away) if he sees Yhwach just be unaffected by calamity, and WOU can even teleport (which WOU can do, as its written in his profile with scans to prove it)
Also trying to pursue WOU in any sort of way, like trying to aim, chase, think of pursuing him, etc, would all fall under calamity, so idk how Yhwach would even think of approaching WOU here when he has to deal with other shit like some durability neg pebble or plane or leaf or whatever.

How does absorbing Tooru help WoU exactly? Everything that Tooru is would become a part of Yhwach, the abilities, resistances and even biological traits.

• Tooru can direct WoU
• Tooru himself is seemingly immune as he's never subject to Calamity iirc

Both these things would apply to Yhwach after he absorbs Tooru which just result in Yhwach winning via incap

First of all, I never said WoU couldn't evade, but good luck repeatedly evading a guy who can see at least a million years into every single future and bend those futures to his whim, it's simply not happening.

Second, a part of The Almighty is to know every power Yhwach sees which is listed on his profile, so Yhwach would be quite aware of the huge intent flaw of WoU.

Lastly, I just want to point out that this match cannot be added no matter the outcome so as to potentially save us arguing endlessly on something that frankly doesn't matter.

• If Yhwach wins then it's via a stomp as Tooru/WoU can't actually do anything to Yhwach
• If it's an inconclusive where neither side actually have a wincon then it can't be added except with a notable debate which this isn't
• Tooru/WoU has no wincon even remotely so that's not relevant

"OP said stenritter abilities" ok but that doesn't really prove he can use it in character, can he? Can you show an instance of him using it in battle in character please?

Also I checked this "X Axis resists Logic" But that statement in the scan is quite ambiguous based on that one scan alone. Doesn't even sound like logic manip resistance, unless one of the dudes there manipulate logic? If so, where? (Don't see it on Yhwach's profile in the stenritter)
Though even if we did take that ambiguous statement at a face value, I don't see as to how WOU's logic manip is the same as that dude's logic manip in how they both work + their potency. So idk. anyways here's this "ambiguous statement" I was talking about.

https://imgur.io/a/gtD9h

Again, there wouldn't be a point in saying Yhwach can use them if he's not actually going to use them, the point of this fight is both at their strongest and yet you're trying to arbitrarily make Yhwach weaker by restricting 80% of his abilities, I'll just very easily clear this up by asking the OP.

The other guy in the screenshot is Shunsui Kyoraku, almost his entire moveset is law manipulation, he's saying his abilities no longer apply to Lille, and I'm not sure if you're aware but "logic manipulation" doesn't actually exist and is just a subset of law manipulation.

As for potency, WoU never overcame resistance iirc so I'm not sure if it has any potency beyond baseline, though I'm not entirely familiar with how we treat law manipulation here to be honest.

Lastly, I'm fairly sure Yhwach's resistance to causality would let him resist WoU as well but someone else would need to clarify that.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

How does absorbing Tooru help WoU exactly? Everything that Tooru is would become a part of Yhwach, the abilities, resistances and even biological traits.

• Tooru can direct WoU
• Tooru himself is seemingly immune as he's never subject to Calamity iirc

Both these things would apply to Yhwach after he absorbs Tooru which just result in Yhwach winning via incap

First of all, I never said WoU couldn't evade, but good luck repeatedly evading a guy who can see at least a million years into every single future and bend those futures to his whim, it's simply not happening.

Second, a part of The Almighty is to know every power Yhwach sees which is listed on his profile, so Yhwach would be quite aware of the huge intent flaw of WoU.

Lastly, I just want to point out that this match cannot be added no matter the outcome so as to potentially save us arguing endlessly on something that frankly doesn't matter.

• If Yhwach wins then it's via a stomp as Tooru/WoU can't actually do anything to Yhwach
• If it's an inconclusive where neither side actually have a wincon then it can't be added except with a notable debate which this isn't
• Tooru/WoU has no wincon even remotely so that's not relevant

Again, there wouldn't be a point in saying Yhwach can use them if he's not actually going to use them, the point of this fight is both at their strongest and yet you're trying to arbitrarily make Yhwach weaker by restricting 80% of his abilities, I'll just very easily clear this up by asking the OP.

The other guy in the screenshot is Shunsui Kyoraku, almost his entire moveset is law manipulation, he's saying his abilities no longer apply to Lille, and I'm not sure if you're aware but "logic manipulation" doesn't actually exist and is just a subset of law manipulation.

As for potency, WoU never overcame resistance iirc so I'm not sure if it has any potency beyond baseline, though I'm not entirely familiar with how we treat law manipulation here to be honest.

Lastly, I'm fairly sure Yhwach's resistance to causality would let him resist WoU as well but someone else would need to clarify that.

"How does absorbing Tooru help WOU here?" Simple, read this

Also. I should say something about Tooru. WOU is not tied to Tooru's existence, at all. WOU is sentient and it's own character, not even being Tooru's stand either. So WOU was never Tooru's stand, Tooru's ability was merely to control, but WOU itself is a distinct entity that will exist forever regardless if Tooru exists or not, and is a natural law of the world. Tldr, WOU is its own entity and cognizant, he just has the same goals as tooru, but he doesn't have to listen to his will or orders. Also, killing Tooru is basically the best case for WOU, as he basically is kinda more free, and no longer is bounded by stand rules such as "Hurting the user hurts the stand and vice versa".

amogus.

How does absorbing Tooru help WoU exactly? Everything that Tooru is would become a part of Yhwach, the abilities, resistances and even biological traits.

• Tooru can direct WoU
• Tooru himself is seemingly immune as he's never subject to Calamity iirc

Both these things would apply to Yhwach after he absorbs Tooru which just result in Yhwach winning via incap

First of all, I never said WoU couldn't evade, but good luck repeatedly evading a guy who can see at least a million years into every single future and bend those futures to his whim, it's simply not happening.

Second, a part of The Almighty is to know every power Yhwach sees which is listed on his profile, so Yhwach would be quite aware of the huge intent flaw of WoU.

Lastly, I just want to point out that this match cannot be added no matter the outcome so as to potentially save us arguing endlessly on something that frankly doesn't matter.

• If Yhwach wins then it's via a stomp as Tooru/WoU can't actually do anything to Yhwach
• If it's an inconclusive where neither side actually have a wincon then it can't be added except with a notable debate which this isn't
• Tooru/WoU has no wincon even remotely so that's not relevant

Again, there wouldn't be a point in saying Yhwach can use them if he's not actually going to use them, the point of this fight is both at their strongest and yet you're trying to arbitrarily make Yhwach weaker by restricting 80% of his abilities, I'll just very easily clear this up by asking the OP.

The other guy in the screenshot is Shunsui Kyoraku, almost his entire moveset is law manipulation, he's saying his abilities no longer apply to Lille, and I'm not sure if you're aware but "logic manipulation" doesn't actually exist and is just a subset of law manipulation.

As for potency, WoU never overcame resistance iirc so I'm not sure if it has any potency beyond baseline, though I'm not entirely familiar with how we treat law manipulation here to be honest.

Lastly, I'm fairly sure Yhwach's resistance to causality would let him resist WoU as well but someone else would need to clarify that.

So absorbing Tooru would do nothing. "But he can control calamity" Wouldn't also matter because WOU doesn't care and would still subject his ass to calamity, Tooru doesn't even have any resistance here in the first place to calamity anyways.
"Can see into future" Yeah, good luck in trying to tag a dude who keeps calamity'ing your ass, meaning your attention is divided into both dodging and trying to tag this dude who can move away and teleport. "Bend the future" Can Yhwach bend a future where a Abstract EE 2 dude exists? One that is made out of calamity energy too as well (Because that's what WOU itself is)
Also trying to bend would also be pursuing, so he'll still be dealing with calamity here.
"Almighty can see every power" Has he really seen a ability that manipulates bad things in the first place? Or should I say: Can it really decipher an ability that is all about bad things but via logic manip that also ***** with fate, karma, etc and so on? Idk bro. "Arbitrarily make Yhwach weaker" Can you not strawman? I have been asking for proof that he can use stenritter abilities in character. The OP saying he has these abilities doesn't matter if it isn't proven that HE can use it in character, and so far from what I have heard, other bleach readers that I know have told me that Yhwach never uses them at all, nor supposedly imply he would
And nobody has told me otherwise here. Just that he has it.
Also even then, I still have no idea how we're gonna approach the different law manips here, since it ain't just about what range it can affect, but how it does it, what it can do, etc. (WOU's law manip basically ***** around with karma, fate. and other stuff that i forgot about that is listed in his profile)

 

[Hellscream]

Yhwach has never used these abilities in the manga, nor has he ever used yamamoto's bankai, despite having it.
Yhwach was specified to have them in this battle.

 

[Purgy]

"How does absorbing Tooru help WOU here?" Simple, read this

So absorbing Tooru would do nothing. "But he can control calamity" Wouldn't also matter because WOU doesn't care and would still subject his ass to calamity, Tooru doesn't even have any resistance here in the first place to calamity anyways.

Can you substantiate WoU being able to ignore Tooru's commands and do whatever it wants regardless of Tooru? WoU continuing to exist and function after Tooru's death isn't proof of this btw, you'd need to show WoU directly ignoring Tooru's command for example.

"Can see into future" Yeah, good luck in trying to tag a dude who keeps calamity'ing your ass, meaning your attention is divided into both dodging and trying to tag this dude who can move away and teleport. "Bend the future" Can Yhwach bend a future where a Abstract EE 2 dude exists? One that is made out of calamity energy too as well (Because that's what WOU itself is)

Yhwach doesn't need to dodge, why? Because WoU could never even in a billion years actually even remotely threaten Yhwach, he simply doesn't have an ability that can put Yhwach down or incap him.

Not sure if you're aware but AE Type 2 doesn't require anything special to interact with, so yes, Yhwach can manipulate a future with WoU in it.

Also trying to bend would also be pursuing, so he'll still be dealing with calamity here.
"Almighty can see every power" Has he really seen a ability that manipulates bad things in the first place? Or should I say: Can it really decipher an ability that is all about bad things but via logic manip that also ***** with fate, karma, etc and so on? Idk bro.

Calamity doesn't prevent Yhwach from absorbing Tooru though, it just inflicts random things upon Yhwach such as damaging him etc, too bad that none of these things actually achieve anything as Yhwach can even rewrite fate to undo his death and with the Schrifts has Mid-Godly.

He knows all powers he sees which is stated, as long as it isn't higher-dimensional or the character isn't resistant to information analysis then it's fair game, neither apply to WoU.

"Arbitrarily make Yhwach weaker" Can you not strawman? I have been asking for proof that he can use stenritter abilities in character. The OP saying he has these abilities doesn't matter if it isn't proven that HE can use it in character, and so far from what I have heard, other bleach readers that I know have told me that Yhwach never uses them at all, nor supposedly imply he would
And nobody has told me otherwise here. Just that he has it.

You're clearly asking a question you already know the answer to and it's pointless, no Yhwach has never used the Schrifts, it doesn't change that the OP of this thread intends Yhwach to be at his strongest and have access to them, two things you're trying to skirt around by saying he won't use them.

I already asked the OP this question and the OP has the ability to dictate mind sets so just wait for his response.

Also even then, I still have no idea how we're gonna approach the different law manips here, since it ain't just about what range it can affect, but how it does it, what it can do, etc. (WOU's law manip basically ***** around with karma, fate. and other stuff that i forgot about that is listed in his profile)

Resistance to law/logic manip is resistance to law/logic manip, WoU isn't unconventional or special in this regard, nor does it overcome resistance.

Going over the facts

• Yhwach resists law/logic manip
• Yhwach resists causality manip which I'm 99% sure encompasses WoU's core abilities
• Yhwach has fate manip that is literally several orders of infinity superior to WoU's
• Yhwach has a feat of absorbing a character with 4-D fate hax so there's no reason he can't absorb Tooru's ability which is vastly inferior

This is a massive stomp, Yhwach absorbs Tooru and takes control over WoU to incap it, nothing suggests otherwise.

 

[Arcker123]

Yhwach absorbs Tooru and takes control over WoU to incap it

Can’t he just absorb WoU directly into himself along with Tooru since they are seperate. There’s nothing Yhwach from doing that as AE type 2 doesn’t require anything special to touch.

 

[Purgy]

Can’t he just absorb WoU directly into himself along with Tooru since they are seperate. There’s nothing Yhwach from doing that as AE type 2 doesn’t require anything special to touch.

Probably, he absorbed Mimihagi who himself is incorporeal and made of a form of energy

Though of the two I think it's much easier for Yhwach to just absorb Tooru and take control of WoU through that