Wonder of U vs Dragon's Dream (Battle of Calamity)

[Yourpancake]

Tier unchanged
Speed unchanged
Kenzo and Wonder of U start 10 meters apart in the main lobby of the Morioh hospital.
Tooru isn't in the hospital, he's out shopping somewhere.
Wincon is death.

Tooru is 10-C, WOU is 8-C
Kenzo is 9-C, DD is 8-C


Votes:


Votes:

(Kenzo doesn't have a VSB page)

 

[Chariot190]

Kenzo is 9-C, DD is 8-C

Why is it 8-C exactly?

 

[Yourpancake]

Why is it 8-C exactly?

Because DD's Feng Shui Assassination does what WOU can do with Calamity.

 

[Chariot190]

Well it doesnt matter WOU stomps so ******* bad it isn't even funny, Feng Shui isn't perfect and Kenzo still has to physically move to his good spots, he just dies as he does so. He also can't kill WoU, like ever, it's impossible for him, and that's ignoring the whole thing with feng shui is unironically just a smaller part of calamity and flow, needless to say the mf who's ability is that as a whole is gonna be screwing over the ability that it also encompasses.

Because DD's Feng Shui Assassination does what WOU can do with Calamity.

No, it doesn't, like not even close. It's just bad luck, but it's far more limited and physical and needs way more set up. And it's just bad luck, it doesn't have all the wacky bonus hax built in. This also doesnt answer the question as to why it's 8-C.

 

[CBslayeR]

didn't he harm FF?

 

[Chariot190]

In her human body yeah, but her human body is just, well a human (pretty evidently amped up to superhuman degrees, but not to the degree of her Stand body that can casually maim shit like Stone Free and Kiss), the actual F.F. entity was completely unharmed and he never hurt her outside of things she's weak to like dehydration and electrocution.

 

[Yourpancake]

Feng Shui isn't perfect and Kenzo still has to physically move to his good spots, he just dies as he does so.

WOU isn't perfect either. Colliding with an object isn't always a guaranteed death, and the nature of DD should allow Kenzo to read the Flow of Calamity since it's a natural force. Even if WOU guarantees that an object will collide with Kenzo no matter what, DD can reduce the damage to superficial wounds like cuts and bruises by pointing to lucky spots. All Kenzo has to do then is shuffle to the side to reach it.

He also can't kill WoU, like ever, it's impossible for him

Kenzo doesn't have to, he can reach Tooru with DD no matter the distance. Feng Shui Assassination activates when Kenzo or his target interacts with DD, so as long as Kenzo reaches DD, he can attack Tooru.

feng shui is unironically just a smaller part of calamity and flow

Exactly. Therefor, DD can read the Flow of Calamity and reduce the level of injury towards Kenzo to superficial levels.

needless to say the mf who's ability is that as a whole is gonna be screwing over the ability that it also encompasses.

The Flow of Calamity doesn't protect WOU beyond attacking whoever has the will to pursue. It shouldn't nullify Feng Shui Assassination because then that would be nullifying Calamity, which would then make him completely impervious to misfortune like Valentine's Love Train.

This also doesnt answer the question as to why it's 8-C.

Did you read Stone Ocean? Did you see what Feng Shui Assassination was capable of? I'd argue that DD was Araki's inspiration for WOU.

 

[Chariot190]

WOU isn't perfect either.

It's a HELL of a lot better than DD. And needed some law-breaking non-existent bullshit to get by.

Colliding with an object isn't always a guaranteed death,

No, depending on the severity of actions anyway. Kenzo is ACTIVELY fighting WoU, the collisions will be absolutely brutal, it isn't like someone not even knowing what he is trying to take a look at him and chopping a finger off. Actually think about the collisions, Rai following WoU had his legs nearly torn off (thank god for his string physiology), the interviewer confronting and trying to compromise WoU died. Josuke would have instantly died when he nearly saw WoU's face on the bus, but his bubbles protected from the calamity and moved the energy from the bubbles to some dude, who instantly died, Yasuho trying o look at WoU tripped on nothing and fell and lost her ******* arm. Rai nearly hurting WoU died. Joushu trying to grab Toru had a stiff breeze blow a leaf to slice off his fingers and attempting to attack had debris fall and cave his head in ko'ing him. Josuke formulating an attack plan had it begin raining and lands numerous brutal wounds upon him. I could go on, it's ESPECIALLY bad in Kenzo's case as he's an awful person, so his karma is especially high, and as such, what happens to him will be even worse as seen with that e dude in the cell with Rai.

and the nature of DD should allow Kenzo to read the Flow of Calamity since it's a natural force.

Except that isn't what DD does or enables him to do. Calamity is an all-encompassing universal law that creates its own calamity if need be. thsi is not the same as Kenzo's reading.

Even if WOU guarantees that an object will collide with Kenzo no matter what, DD can reduce the damage to superficial wounds like cuts and bruises by pointing to lucky spots. All Kenzo has to do then is shuffle to the side to reach it.

Not how it works, that shit negates durability and is reflective the priority and karma, a good example would be the aforementioned example with the bus, the calamity energy instantly killed some dude, breaking their neck without outside cause. The collisions are a means to deliver this karma and calamity.

You're also ignoring how deep-rooted this flow is, if Kenzo thinks to move, with the intent to compromise WoU's goals, he's dying before he moves properly. He's also dying anyway because he's thinking on how to beat WoU, so he's within the flow and would die as he moves between lucky spots.

Kenzo doesn't have to,

Literally your OP "Wincon is death", so yes, he does.

e can reach Tooru with DD no matter the distance.

What? That isn't how DD works, it doesn't have an infinite range, completely ignoring the fact Kenzo doesn't know about Toru or where he is. And that would be an EXPLICIT thought at would result in brutal damage, mutilation or possibly death as that's a direct attempt to harm Toru.

Feng Shui Assassination activates when Kenzo or his target interacts with DD, so as long as Kenzo reaches DD, he can attack Tooru.

Huge issue, as long as HE or his TARGET interacts with DD, neither of which will happen. If he got fooled by a mere puddle, do you really think calamity wouldn't compromise hm in worse ways? Hell calamity might even just compromise DD and Kenz's feng shui to begin with as we see it do to Josuke's bubbles, rending control of them.

The Flow of Calamity doesn't protect WOU beyond attacking whoever has the will to pursue.

That isn't even true, the flow of calamity can get exceptionally fucky, the flow also aids in Toru's goals, it's just the most obvious and demonstrated ability is how those who pursue meet a calamity, but that doesn't mean that's all it does or what it can do. Calamity can take MANY forms, many non-straightforward from disease, spoiled food, manipulation of fate, probability changes, and even complex sequences of events to arrive at a desired outcome. It as mentioned, also aids in his goals, most blatantly stated when WoU explains to Josuke how the rokakaka is rooted in the flow of calamity, and the fact that the plant will arrive and come int his possession, making is way from the estate to WoU, is a guaranteed outcome dictated by the flow and it isnt a flow where Josuke can acquire it. This was true, and the plant was revealed by accident, and through various events came into Toru's possession, and would have be taken away if not for the emergence of GB.

It shouldn't nullify Feng Shui Assassination because then that would be nullifying Calamity, which would then make him completely impervious to misfortune like Valentine's Love Train.

My brother in christ, if anything it'd have complete and utter control of feng shui and have it completely backfire against him as Kenzo doesn't even manipulate the flow, he just goes to places that are lucky, pretty awful gameplay when you're going up against the thing that dictates what's lucky or bad and it wants you DEAD.
Also Kenzo would be passively memed on by Love Train dude, he gets giga stomped by that too.

Exactly. Therefor, DD can read the Flow of Calamity and reduce the level of injury towards Kenzo to superficial levels.

Other way around, it's more like Kenzo deals with a very limited and specific aspect of luck and fate, while he's facing off the all-encompassing aspect of it. It's like saying being kenzo observes the movement of clouds, he would be able to observe the movement of planets.
Also you show a misunderstanding in how calamity functions.

Did you read Stone Ocean? Did you see what Feng Shui Assassination was capable of? I'd argue that DD was Araki's inspiration for WOU.

Evidently more than you given Kenzo lacks any 8-C feat or scaling, is mutilated by a 9-A, feng shui has nothing to do with AP and is just luck or "critical hits". Incorrect, we know what his inspiration was for WoU, themes that predate Kenzo and root back all the way to Part 1.

Kenzo is outclassed and ****** here it isn't even funny, he thinks about how to beat Wou, tries to move to a lucky spot, and dies and wouldn't even know why. As just one of many ways he'd lose mind you. Should also mention WoU is way, way, quicker than Kenzo too, speed equal that's bad.

 

[Yourpancake]

No, depending on the severity of actions anyway. Kenzo is ACTIVELY fighting WoU, the collisions will be absolutely brutal, it isn't like someone not even knowing what he is trying to take a look at him and chopping a finger off. Actually think about the collisions, Rai following WoU had his legs nearly torn off (thank god for his string physiology), the interviewer confronting and trying to compromise WoU died. Josuke would have instantly died when he nearly saw WoU's face on the bus, but his bubbles protected from the calamity and moved the energy from the bubbles to some dude, who instantly died, Yasuho trying o look at WoU tripped on nothing and fell and lost her ******* arm. Rai nearly hurting WoU died. Joushu trying to grab Toru had a stiff breeze blow a leaf to slice off his fingers and attempting to attack had debris fall and cave his head in ko'ing him. Josuke formulating an attack plan had it begin raining and lands numerous brutal wounds upon him.

The severity of one's actions doesn't affect the severity of the injury. During WOU's introduction, Josuke, Rai, and Yasuho chased him through the hospital, and not only did none of them die, almost all collisions were superficial and non lethal. Josuke ran into a glass door, Rai tripped over some chairs, then an umbrella rack that disfigured his legs, Josuke ran after Yasuho and got a cigarette in his hand, then Yasuho was hit by a car - which would've been the only death among them if it weren't for Josuke. Josuke and Rai pursued WOU just as much as Yasuho, and she would've been the only death. Lucy Steel merely glanced at Tooru but died from a lung disease, Mitsuba did the same and got her fingers sliced off. Rai stood up and got superficial injuries from raining glass, then he hid himself in a guy's pants - fully intending to end up in the hospital - and got there just fine, then looked at him multiple times as he raced WOU to where Josuke was.
The way you're describing WOU makes it seem like merely glancing at him will always drop a building on you. But your argument proves the opposite; there is no consistency between the weight of actions and the resulting calamity.

Not how it works, that shit negates durability and is reflective the priority and karma, a good example would be the aforementioned example with the bus, the calamity energy instantly killed some dude, breaking their neck without outside cause. The collisions are a means to deliver this karma and calamity.

Where it hits and how much damage it causes and how much time it takes is random. If it ignored durability 100% of the time, Rai would've died in the jail cell.

You're also ignoring how deep-rooted this flow is, if Kenzo thinks to move, with the intent to compromise WoU's goals, he's dying before he moves properly. He's also dying anyway because he's thinking on how to beat WoU, so he's within the flow and would die as he moves between lucky spots.

That is exactly what Rai did when he raced WOU through the hospital.

What? That isn't how DD works, it doesn't have an infinite range, completely ignoring the fact Kenzo doesn't know about Toru or where he is. And that would be an EXPLICIT thought at would result in brutal damage, mutilation or possibly death as that's a direct attempt to harm Toru.

DD was never used on a long ranged stand in Stone Ocean, so the implication that he can't use Feng Shui Assassination on a stand to target the user is moot. He only needs to interact with DD to trigger it.

Huge issue, as long as HE or his TARGET interacts with DD, neither of which will happen. If he got fooled by a mere puddle, do you really think calamity wouldn't compromise hm in worse ways?

Calamity did little to compromise Josuke's ability to fire off Go Beyond more than once. Calamity isn't an instant win button, it takes its own time, and does whatever it wants regardless of tactical viability. It could take enough time for Kenzo to pull off a Feng Shui Assassination.
Kaato put Tsurugi in her stand, walked over to Tooru, and dumped her stand on him before Calamity did anything. That is bad luck, DD's domain.

Hell calamity might even just compromise DD and Kenz's feng shui to begin with as we see it do to Josuke's bubbles, rending control of them.

Might, not will. It might have taken Josuke's arms, it might have taken Kaato's legs, it might have killed Yasuho to stop Go Beyond.

Calamity can take MANY forms, many non-straightforward from disease, spoiled food, manipulation of fate, probability changes, and even complex sequences of events to arrive at a desired outcome.

My statement is still true. Go Beyond was not a desired outcome. Neither was Jobin getting the Locacaca. Neither was the deaths of all the rock humans working under Tooru. Neither was Kaato. It's not invincible.

My brother in christ, if anything it'd have complete and utter control of feng shui and have it completely backfire against him as Kenzo doesn't even manipulate the flow, he just goes to places that are lucky, pretty awful gameplay when you're going up against the thing that dictates what's lucky or bad and it wants you DEAD.

Regardless, DD can still point towards the luckiest place to be to avoid death or dismemberment, even if everywhere is unlucky, DD will point to the spot where Kenzo will lose one arm instead of two. Feng Shui Assassination is reliant on exploiting unlucky spots that are present on everyone, even WOU, and that spot would be reflected on Tooru. WOU was unlucky enough to be grabbed by Rai, and may have killed Kaato, but it didn't prevent the Locacaca from killing Tooru. Calamity didn't inhibit Kaato in any way, shape, or form that could've prevented this outcome. Calamity didn't save him because it's a neutral force, it happens to everyone, even if it takes a million years, even Tooru. Feng Shui Assassination is bad luck, the same kind that caused his death.

Other way around, it's more like Kenzo deals with a very limited and specific aspect of luck and fate, while he's facing off the all-encompassing aspect of it. It's like saying being kenzo observes the movement of clouds, he would be able to observe the movement of planets.

That's why Kenzo can't avoid all harm when it comes to WOU. He can mitigate potential damage, but not prevent it from doing something to him. He can still attack through DD because Tooru doesn't have any resistances to fate. WOU isn't paracausal because it manipulates fate instead of avoiding it like King Crimson. If something is fated to happen to Tooru, he can't do anything about it.
You admitted that Josuke redirected calamity with his bubbles (that action is a fate manipulation feat). That means WOU doesn't have complete control of Calamity. That means someone else can hijack it and target someone else. That means DD can redirect calamity to target Tooru instead of him because Tooru is not exempt from its flow.

Evidently more than you given Kenzo lacks any 8-C feat or scaling, is mutilated by a 9-A, feng shui has nothing to do with AP and is just luck or "critical hits". Incorrect, we know what his inspiration was for WoU, themes that predate Kenzo and root back all the way to Part 1.

Kenzo is 9-C because he's at the level of Olympic athletes and martial artists. He blocked punches from FF, who has above human feats.
I figured DD was 8-C because I could see it doing the same thing WOU did with the plane. That's on me, but consider the fact it is possible even if DD is 9-B and there are no feats.

feng shui has nothing to do with AP and is just luck or "critical hits".

So is Calamity, then, by your admission. Except WOU is listed as 8-C in the wiki link above. If Calamity can make WOU 8-C or above with feats, Feng Shui Assassination can make DD 8-C too given appropriate feats

Kenzo is outclassed and ****** here it isn't even funny, he thinks about how to beat Wou, tries to move to a lucky spot, and dies and wouldn't even know why. As just one of many ways he'd lose mind you. Should also mention WoU is way, way, quicker than Kenzo too, speed equal that's bad.

More exaggeration. By your logic, Josuke, Rai, Yasuho, and many other characters in Jojolion who've ever thought about killing Tooru would've died instantly. It's movement following the desire to pursue that triggers Calamity. Josuke sat in that room waiting for WOU for a long time, nothing happened to him until WOU showed up and forced him to move with the rock insect. Rai had the intent to pursue in that jail cell, but didn't suffer from calamity until he stood up to look out the window, and he wasn't affected in the Ambulance because he wasn't moving, the Ambulance was.

 

[Yourpancake]

bump

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Nah, Kenzo just straight up dies. Like, this is a stomp above all other stomps.

 

[Chariot190]

The severity of one's actions doesn't affect the severity of the injury. During WOU's introduction, Josuke, Rai, and Yasuho chased him through the hospital, and not only did none of them die,

Oh yes it does my dude, it's explained, explained BY HIM like twice, and is demonstrated for the most part. Even the simple bio tailpiece says, and I quote "the more you pursue him, the more likely you're torn apart and die". The more you pursue him, the larger the calamity, the higher your karma, the worse the calamity, if you see him you die, if you attack him the attack wil be prevented somehow (stated 4 times) and you will suffer calamity directly (one explanation even implies the calamity is proportional to what your attack would have done, with "your attack being turned against you"), etc. This is explained explicitly.
Yeah, they did chase him, from a distance, without even knowing much about him yet how he related to them and if he was evil, needed to be killed, and so on, they were trying to just GET to him, and Rai like borderline lost his legs because of it.

almost all collisions were superficial and non lethal.

Yeah, for Yasuho who was just kinda there and didn't even think the rokakaka was at the hospital, and Josuke, who had yet to show actual intent to harm him yet, and as far as karma goes well not much.
And then you have Rai, who upon getting close to WoU, suffered mutilated and torn apart legs.

You seem to forget how WoU works regarding karma, and the intensity of calamity in regards to the actions and intent taken, such as the shifting flow of the order of calamity, and how proximity and how close one is to seeing his identity affects the calamity, with seeing his face guaranteeing death even, something that is explicitly noted.

Also, two of the collisions would have been lethal, and as mentioned, the more one pursues, the more likely you die, with some things straight up causing death should the trigger be switched.

Josuke ran into a glass door, Rai tripped over some chairs, then an umbrella rack that disfigured his legs,

Yeah, Josuke ran into a glass door merely trying to have WoU turn around, was stopped by the environment and impeded from his goal, and wounded his hand for such a simple act. Rai way less chill in his intent, ends up with his legs nearly torn off (they actually DO fall off, they just stay connected by a few wires), and is impeded by the environment from meeting WoU with more extensive damage.

Josuke ran after Yasuho and got a cigarette in his hand,

Yeah, Josuke wasn't even TRYING to look at WoU or chase him in that moment, merely aiding Yasuho, and he STILL got injured, she continued her pursuit and the calamity worsened to the point of being lethal.

then Yasuho was hit by a car - which would've been the only death among them if it weren't for Josuke.

Correct, because she came to the closest to seeing his face, as established later on, if one looks up at his face without its consent, the order of calamity shifts and they will die.

Josuke and Rai pursued WOU just as much as Yasuho, and she would've been the only death.

Because she came the closest to actually seeing his face (she even says she almost sees it and she stretches out). As explained by Toru and Wou like 4 times. Chasing him invites calamity, the extent of the pursuit, how close one gets to actually seeing his face, and if they harm malicious intent or direct thoughts to impede him, all affect what happens. Yasuho almost seeing his face, both times, caused a calamity that would have killed, this aligns with his direct statement saying if one sees his face without consent, a fatal calamity will occur.

Lucy Steel merely glanced at Tooru but died from a lung disease,

Correct, Lucy Steel, not even knowing his identity glanced at him just because, caused her lung disease to act up.

Mitsuba did the same and got her fingers sliced off.

Yes, Mitsuba, from a distance, looked at him in confusion as to why he was there and accidentally chopped her own fingers off.

Rai stood up and got superficial injuries from raining glass,

Yes, Rai, merely standing up to glance at WoU from a distance, had a lightbulb next to him explode for no reason, harming him. Notable in that Rai didn't even EXPECT to see WoU's face, he was just demonstrating how if you attempt to do so, shit starts going bad.

then he hid himself in a guy's pants - fully intending to end up in the hospital - and got there just fine, then looked at him multiple times as he raced WOU to where Josuke was.

You seemed to ignore how Rai explained karma in that scene and how one's karma affects the calamity, demonstrating this with the dude, who was a killer, looking at WoU, and basically dying from doing that, which is how Rai snuck within his pants as he was taken to the hospital. You're also ignoring the intent behind Rai's actions, Rai at that moment wasn't "pursuing WoU", he was trying to get to Josuke, it just so happened that WoU and Rai's goals were the same, and Rai even points that out, in how WoU's goal to get to Josuke is the same as his own, and he must get to Josuke first, aka, he wasn't pursuing WoU, he was lowkey trying to avoid him and beat him in a race.

We know from later that if one doesn't have the intent to pursue, as loose as that is, they won't be affected, although the results of one's actions after the fact would still be subjected to calamity depending on what they were. Rai was simply not pursuing.

They way you're describing WOU makes it seem like merely glancing at him will always drop a building on you. But your argument proves the opposite; there is no consistency between the weight of actions and the resulting calamity.

Uh, no, you just happened to completely ignore the metric fuckton of explanations in priority and how it works, all of which are on the profile btw so idk why I'm even humoring your ass.
Kenzo is trying to kill WoU as per SBA and your victory conditions, that alone ***** him over completely, he's done for, and his actions will not have the same consequences as someone like Mitsuba or the nurse, they will be like Rai, if not drastically worse to Kenzo's karma.

Where it hits and how much damage it causes and how much time it takes is random. If it ignored durability 100% of the time, Rai would've died in the jail cell.

What? Have you even read the profile let alone the part? COLLISIONS ignore durability, I never said they're 100% instant death just that they ignore durability 100% of the time. How much damage they do differs of course, but they always ignore durability, the damage they inflict is done regardless of one's durability, whether that is a small cut, lost limbs, or instant death, it doesn't matter, how the damage is inflicted does' change the damage. That is my point, there is no "Kenzo dodges or whatever and limits the damage", if the calamity he endures gives him a cut, it's cutting him, if the calamity blows his legs off, it's blowing his legs off, if the calamity kills him, well he's dead.

That is exactly what Rai did when he raced WOU through the hospital.

And he explicitly was trying to get to Josuke, not WoU, they just both had the same destination. Rai even says this himself.

DD was never used on a long ranged stand in Stone Ocean, so the implication that he can't use Feng Shui Assassination on a stand to target the user is moot. He only needs to interact with DD to trigger it.

Not how it works, Stands have a limited range by nature, DD is limited to its best feats, you don't get to just wank it and go "oh yeah Kenzo could attack Toru, who he doesn't know nor knows where he is from a huge distance away (doesn't matter how far according to you, aka infinite range) because I said so".
DD's warp-like ability had NEVER been used to that extent, with the locations things were moved all being within view even. This argument is akin to if I said WoU is actually 2-A because he never DIDN'T destroy the multiverse.

Also, he actually CAN'T use feng shui assassination on WoU, he's a Stand, a Stand that even displays phasing capabilities, Kenzo is just a human, he can't actually interact with Stands like other Stands or those with integrated Stands such as Rai, Diego, or Jolyne and Rai can just phase himself through the environment because he literally did that like 5 times on screen a 3 different points.

So no, DD's range is whatever his best range feat was, nothing more unless stated (which it isnt).

Calamity did little to compromise Josuke's ability to fire off Go Beyond more than once. Calamity isn't an instant win button, it takes its own time, and does whatever it wants regardless of tactical viability. It could take enough time for Kenzo to pull off a Feng Shui Assassination.

Incorrect, the whole point of Calamity is what it does and how it does it, WoU doesn't know, but he knows for a fact, that no matter what happens, harm cannot befall him as calamity will prevent it, even if i doesn't seem to iniially. A good example would again be with Rai, who got so close to harming him, yet the moment he could actually do so, he was struck by calamity and died, all while Josuke yells at him to NOT attack WOU because he'll suffer a calamity and WOU explains he doesn't know what will happen but the fact that Rai will suffer a calamity is guaranteed if he finishes attacking, Rai dies because his dumbass didn't listen to the rule WOU has told him like 5 times by that point.

Kenzo isn't doing shit, the moment he starts "pursuing" WoU and thinking of how to beat him, Calamity will begin, if kenzo, for some unknown reason gets close enough to even hurt WoU, he dies. If he sees his face without his consent, he will also die.

Also yeah, because Go Beyond as a whole ignored calamity? That was the WHOLE POINT. But it compromised Josuke's direct attacks on him other than GB, causing them all to miss or be deflected somehow or harming him directly, such as when Josuke tried to kick WoU and had his leg gougedaand he got impaled, and hell even destroying WoU's vials caused them to bounce back and wound Josuke (WoU explicitly notes how anything he's touched also harbors calamity and causes one, another way calamity has far more utility than you give it credit for), or how Josuke trips on his ass and gets impaled in the shoulder, etc, other notable things including, Josuke who was rooted in the flow of calamity being pumped full of holes by rain for wanting to pursue him, Josuke waking up and wanting to pursue further and having a cop fall on him ripping his tendons, muscles, puncturing his lung and more, or how he wanted to fight him while drinking the rokakaka and almost suffocated because he wanted to pursue him to beat his ass.

Kaato put Tsurugi in her stand, walked over to Tooru, and dumped her stand on him before Calamity did anything. That is bad luck, DD's domain.

Uh no, the manga and Kaato VERY explicitly explain that she had no intent or feelings of an "attack" toward him as she did it, so it didn't activate the ability, DESPITE THAT and having no ill will, she DIED because the action resulted in an attack anyway as she crushed the fruit and "got in the way of his goal". They outright say all this.

This isn't what Kenzo does lmao, she loopholed the shit out of calamity and died for it anyway, Kenzo is going be trying to attack WoU, thinking of how to beat him, and doing so with malicious intent.

My statement is still true. Go Beyond was not a desired outcome.

Josuke ALWAYS had Go Beyond, they state this multiple times, he just didn't know he did and was using it subconsciously, it took multiple people dying for Jsuke to even learn of it and the fact Go Beyond is disconnected from the flow of calamity, everything relating to it is moot.

Neither was Jobin getting the Locacaca.

Unfair point, by the time Toru was involved, he was given misinfo by Poor Tom, the tree they were recovering was a fake one and when Toru arrived, he actually did get the tree, it was just the wrong one. Toru and WoU aren't omniscient.
Btw another calamity, Poor Tom rushing to Toru was struck with calamity and had his head blown off.

Neither was the deaths of all the rock humans working under Tooru. Neither was Kaato. It's not invincible.

Implying Toru even gives a shit about them (he straight up had a calamity KILL poor tom, his ally). It's established he doesn't care for them, most rock humans are like that.

Kaato wasn't, but it explained in detail how she loophole'd the flow, and died anyway.

But nice strawman, you said ALL calamity does is defensive and nothing else, I pointed out no, it's flat-out stated and shown calamity also aids in his goals. I never said this aspect was invincible though, as it's limited to his desires and so on, it won't help him find a lottery ticket on the ground that was dropped because he doesn't actively want it nor knows about it, this is different from the rokakaka and how he made an active effort to obtain it and confirmed the flow will guarantee he obtains it eventually and that his enemy will not. This while both rooted in the flow, is not the same as his primary ability, causing a calamity to befall them that will protect him from all harm and damage or kill them depending on the severity of actions, karma, or if they see his face. All of which is explained and demonstrated multiple times.

I should also point out the flow will also result in someone's actions, such as how WoU explains that Josuke WILL get up and pursue him and suffer a calamity as that process is rooted in the flow, Josuke eventually is forced to get up and attack him and suffers a calamity. Wou notes this aspect a lot in different scenarios.

Might, not will. It might have taken Josuke's arms, it might have taken Kaato's legs, it might have killed Yasuho to stop Go Beyond.

Go Beyond doesn't exist and ignores calamity, the calamity straight up doesn't recognize anything involving it as a calamity.
Again, Kaato loop holed it, and died anyway.
It was GOING to kill Yasuho, but Go Beyond hit him and stopped the flow, again, and the whole point of Go Beyond, it surpasses calamity and doesn't exist so it's not a part of the world's logic and flow, as such calamity doesn't affect it, straight up doesn't exist, it'd be like having hem ge hi by a calamity for LITERALLY NO REASON, because that's technically exactly how it circumvents WoU.

So bad examples, you're kind of disregarding the context behind how that shit even happened.

Regardless, DD can still point towards the luckiest place to be to avoid death or dismemberment, even if everywhere is unlucky,

It can, but it won't help him, and Kenzo still explicitly has to move between spots and as he does so he's vulnerable. This vulnerability makes it so he could never win given SBA.

DD will point to the spot where Kenzo will lose one arm instead of two.

Not how it works? It's explained clearly that calamity encompasses the whole world, there is no "this spot is safer", unless he straight up disengages and shifts the priority of calamity so he's no longer in the flow of calamity. If a calamity decides "hmm, you're gonna lose your foot", he's losing that foot and everything will collude against him for that conclusion to occur.
Again, the collisions hold calamity energy that results in the aftermath regardless of how much damage the collision should realistically cause, demonstrated most blatantly when Josuke saves Yasuho from the car meant to kill her, and the calamity energy is transferred to a normal dude instead, with the calamity instantly breaking their neck killing them without any reason why.

Feng Shui Assassination is reliant on exploiting unlucky spots that are present on everyone, even WOU,

Based on what? Why would an abstract entity, which embodies the very thing bad luck is a part of, have unlucky spots? Especially given his ability to exist simultaneously in numerous locations at once? Dematerialize and how he isn't even a real being but a natural law?
You realize how ridiculous this sounds right? "yeah Kenzo (doesnt have NPI btw so he aint even touching WoU if WoU doesn't want it) can assassinate WoU with feng shui (explicit malicious act with killing intent, which would result in a brutal calamity if he attempts it) because he can see WoU's unlucky spots (WoU itself as a whole is the embodiment of bad luck lmao)".

Even worse because I just remembered, WoU can explicitly make it so its imperceptible to those who do not understand its true nature as the law of calamity. Kenzo does not have this knowledge, he wouldn't realize WoU is calamity itself. As such, WoU can freely vanish and appear to him. Meaning, for argument's sake, this ridiculous claim is true, it wouldn't matter, Kenzo would only be able to see WoU when WoU WANTS to be seen, as demonstrated in how Joubin couldn't see him, its numerous vanishing acts, or the fact the ch tailpiece in the volume release just kinda says as much so...

and that spot would be reflected on Tooru.

Tooru is a nonfactor. Killing Toru, does not kill WoU.

WOU was unlucky enough to be grabbed by Rai,

Yeah, and the moment WoU was about to be harmed, Rai died. Failing to hurt him at all, because no matter what happens, Calamity will prevent WoU from actually being harmed no matter the case. The only times WoU was ever harmed was via Go Beyond, an ability whose whole purpose is to ignore his ability and hurt him.

and may have killed Kaato,

Kaato, again, EXPLICITLY loopholed it, and she died anyway due to her actions.
WoU came back anyway.

but it didn't prevent the Locacaca from killing Tooru.

Of course not, Kaato loopholed it.

Calamity didn't inhibit Kaato in any way, shape, or form that could've prevented this outcome.

Because, AGAIN, she loopholed it, did you read not the manga? She EXPLICITLY did what she did without any malevolent will towards Toru and thus it wasn't recognized as an attack, despite that, she died anyway due to a calamity.

Pretty shitty trade-off if even exploiting the rules still gets you killed and WoU is back like 1 minute later because it can't die permanently by conventional means.

Calamity didn't save him because it's a neutral force, it happens to everyone, even if it takes a million years, even Tooru. Feng Shui Assassination is bad luck, the same kind that caused his death.

Uh no, his death was caused by the indifferent actions and exploitation of his ability's rules by Kaato who performed an action, even despite this though, she died anyway because part of her action was an attack.

Also say sike right now "feng shui is bad lack so it can kill WoU, who is feng shui on crack on a much larger scale and the very embodiment and law that the bad luck aspects of feng shui utilize".

Do you not realize the issue there? Kenzo merely observes the natural bad luck in the world and exploits it for his gain, while WoU IS the higher form of bad luck, and the very law that bad luck is a part of actively goes out of its way to protect him. Like on god, kenzo may as well not even have feng shui here because the very thing he utilizes will be turning against him.

That's why Kenzo can't avoid all harm when it comes to WOU. He can mitigate potential damage, but not prevent it from doing something to him.

Glad you agree he can't actually prevent it, now see the above explanations in how mitigation is useless unless he straight-up disengages WoU.

He can still attack through DD because Tooru doesn't have any resistances to fate.

What? DD doesn't manipulate fate, it just shows the natural luck spots and Kenzo utilizes that info. As said above, that's a shitty gimmick to have when fighting a dude who will have fate protect him and go against Kenzo.

Also in that same respect, Kenzo doesn't resist fate either, he just knows what spots are bad and such but he's still bound to it like anything else.

WOU isn't paracausal because it manipulates fate instead of avoiding it like King Crimson.

Yes thanks for confirming what I said, in how the dude MANIPULATES fate instead of just exploiting it.

If something is fated to happen to Tooru, he can't do anything about it.

Not entirely true, the flow, which btw is a high aspect of fate and destiny with jojo, is constantly changing to protect him and deliver calamity to others should his ability be activated.
So yeah, while its true Toru is bound by fate, that ignores how calamity manipulates fate to protect him.

You admitted that Josuke redirected calamity with his bubbles (that action is a fate manipulation feat).

It was an attack on Yasuho actually not him, and yeah, that's an INSANE feat for Josuke, it's actually his bubble's BEST feat, they were able to absorb, without even his knowing, an abstract energy form. This is an utterly insane feat for his bubbles, and something Kenzo can't even hope to replicate as he's, again, just using his knowledge on bad luck and not actually manipulating or affecting fate at all.

That means WOU doesn't have complete control of Calamity.

WoU doesn't have ANY control over calamity dude, that shit is passive. This is what makes it so hard to get around, if you trigger any of the conditions for it, it activates and just ***** you up depending on the situation.
WoU himself says like 3 times it's passive and he doesn't control it exactly, but he doubles down on what it does, how functions, and how others can't attack him or "pursue" him, and even seeing their face without consent will lead to death.

That means someone else can hijack it and target someone else. That means DD can redirect calamity to target Tooru instead of him because Tooru is not exempt from its flow.

Uh no, it doesn't, wtf? Kenz's ability isn't even manipulating bad luck, it's just knowing about it and exploiting it, he can't hijack shit because that isn't what he does. That also ignores how WoU is the calamity itself and his entire ability is manipulating the flow, calamity, bad luck, etc, the law and energy that governs it, so yeah have fun trying to hijack his true self and how it's passively doing shit for him. '

Kenzo is 9-C because he's at the level of Olympic athletes and martial artists. He blocked punches from FF, who has above human feats.

Honestly, I'd say Kenzo is 9-B, but I wasn't asking about Kenzo himself.

I figured DD was 8-C because I could see it doing the same thing WOU did with the plane.

Uh, what the hell? That isn't how DD works, DD doesn't CAUSE bad luck, it just points it out, The bad luck spots and what happens, happens outside of their power, it's just a natural occurrence. This isn't the same as WoU, where the flow of calamity actively makes these events happen, controlling bad luck all over the world, like the very plane feat you mentioned is something calamity spontaneously caused 10,000 meters away from Tooru just because, while Kenz's ability is simply limited to knowing what bad luck will transpire in a specific spot.
Even then, this display is far beyond anything Kenzo ever displayed with feng shui.

Also, also, that isn't why WoU is 8-C, he's 8-C because he could deflect Josuke's bubbles. The calamity isn't rated because it just has dura neg, but if you took the environmental factors it initiated as its AP, well it caused changes in the weather so it'd have at least some degree of tier 7 ED.

That's on me, but consider the fact it is possible even if DD is 9-B and there are no feats.

Not how it works, that is quite literally, not its ability. Also not how this wiki works, you can't go "well he has no feats, but he can do this", by that logic WoU is 1-A even though it has no feats because it MIGHT be possible the flow in Jojo is a 1-A concept even though there's no feats of that.

So is Calamity, then, by your admission. Except WOU is listed as 8-C in the wiki link above.

Uh no? He's 8-C because he can deflect Josuke's attacks, calamity is just listed as dura neg, kinda like I've explained to you, n fact the majority of what I've said is on the profile, I shouldn't even have to explain this shit mid-match

If Calamity can make WOU 8-C or above with feats, Feng Shui Assassination can make DD 8-C too given appropriate feats

"If Calamity can make WOU 8-C (ignoring that isn't why), then DD can be 8-C to despite feng shui's best feat being like idk 9-B".

More exaggeration.

Literally on the profile brother with scans, citations, and more. It isn't an exaggeration, unlike the dudes you're about to name, Kenz has not a clue how this works, he's going to go right for an attack, and much like every else you attacked WoU and nearly did damage, will die. And the fact that Kenzo has seen his face (unless WoU isn't facing him directly, in which case it will employ its standard tactic of retreat, staying out of range, and have calamity slowly chip away at Kenzo).

By your logic, Josuke, Rai, Yasuho, and many other characters in Jojolion who've ever thought about killing Tooru would've died instantly.

I mean uh, Josuke DID almost die, twice, and WOULD have, twice, maybe even thrice, if he didn't receive immediate medical attention and stopped wanting to beat WoU in those instances.
Yasuho directly engaging Toru caused her to be the next to die, and would have if not for Gb or Josuke, twice actually.
Rai gets ****** up so badly when he thought about it by the rain (thank god he has funny biology), and ends up dying fighting WoU.
Joubin actually does instantly suffer a collision that kills him upon attacking WoU and gazing at Toru through a monitor.
Kaato explicitly DIDN'T think about that.

So yes, Kenzo, with the intent to act and harm WoU, will be heavily damaged and ****** up, dying from the wounds because that dude isn't just walking off having his limbs gone, or dies anyway because his death is ultimately guaranteed to the face rules and other such stuff.

It's movement following the desire to pursue that triggers Calamity. Josuke sat in that room waiting for WOU for a long time, nothing happened to him until WOU showed up and forced him to move with the rock insect. Rai had the intent to pursue in that jail cell, but didn't suffer from calamity until he stood up to look out the window, and he wasn't affected in the Ambulance because he wasn't moving, the Ambulance was.

Uh yeah? Guess what Kenzo does? Move, he "pursues". Josuke had to stop pursuing and just wait for WoU to fight HIM, otherwise he'd have been struck by calamity. Same goes for the rest. However, it should be noted Rai wasn't pursuing WoU in the ambulance, he was trying to get to Josuke.

tldr, lmao WOU is Kenzo and crack, Kenz gets actually neg diffed, and you really didn't listen to explanations of WoU's ability and have a critical misunderstanding of the specifics of it. Also, like 95% of what I said is linked and cited on our profile. I shouldn't have to argue this shit because it's all accepted already.

 

[Chariot190]

I thought i posted but i forgor, all the scans and shit literally on the profile so like, have fun reading.

 

[CBslayeR]

all he can really do is stall the inevitable at best tbh

 

[Yourpancake]

I thought i posted but i forgor, all the scans and shit literally on the profile so like, have fun reading.

Overall, good points that I didn't consider. Your arguments have convinced me. I concede, you win.

Part of the reason I argued against it was because they were shaded with condescension. But that's just an excuse, and I chose not to listen to you.

I admit I was excited after assuming that Dragon's Dream was the magic bullet that could hard counter Wonder of U. I just didn't know enough to doubt it.

I apologise for my brashness.

 

[Chariot190]

Dont worry about it, i just talk that way sometimes. I didnt mean to come off as an asshole.

Though, if ya wanna talk about Stands that might counter WoU. Any stand that can attack from an interdimensional range could, depending on the attack anyway. BB, Act 4 could (though Johnny or Gyro would still suffer calamity, its just the stands wouldnt). And also, personally I think Cream could, Cream is basically just a big Go Beyond, it doesnt exist in the world at the time, it is just a void of nothing. The issue is Ice actually planning his attack beforehand, he'd be subject to calamity, but IN THEORY, Cream's void could attack WoU without issue.

 

[Yourpancake]

Hmm...

What about Bites the Dust? Do you reckon it's abstract enough to get past WOU's defences?

And Boy II Man... Given the nature of pursuit, would it be possible for its user to get away with stealing 1/3 of WOU before dying?

Also. I do kind of want to explain my thought process behind FSA affecting Tooru through WOU, but I'm afraid it'll be in bad taste if I don't ask you first. If you want to hear it, that is.

 

[Chariot190]

Depends how.
If Kira is in the flow of calamity, and he sets it up with the intent to use it against WOU. It's ******.

But say, WoU, procs it on his own, then yeah it would affect him. Obviously given he'd be the pursuer. If the BTD host uses BTD actively against him it will stop it. If the host accidently procs it unwillingly, by say writing Kira and WOU just so happens to see it, it will proc as that wasnt an action of pursuit or attack. BTD would harm him, it's just actually setting BTD up without suffering a calamity is super specific and unrealistic.

Idk for Boy II Man given WoU itself is ******* weird as a Stand, and hell, WoU itself might not even be a Stand but a mechanism. But we'll have to wait and see.
Though how would that ever occur? To play RPS against WOU would be an active pursuit (if Ken did what he did to Rohan, stalking him, bugging the shit out of him, etc, bro would be cooked).

Which is to say, WoU isnt immune to stand abilities, like if The Hand hit him it'd work, if Whitesnake used acid shit it'd work, if KQ turned him into a bomb it'd work. It's just actually landing the attacks is almost impossible, but for arguments sake, if calamity just checked out, WoU is just as vulnerable as any other Stand, it's just he's very hard to kill permanently, though killing him temporarily any stand can do in theory.

 

[CBslayeR]

Couldn't GER beat out WoU?

 

[Yourpancake]

I imagine GER can't stop the collisions from happening, but RTZ could heal any injuries caused by them unless they are instakill.

This is just a hypothesis, but in the best case scenario, GER would be able to return Giorno's karma to zero, reducing the chances of instakill collisions.

 

[Chariot190]

GER maybe could? TBH RTZ kinda roided.

When it comes to calamity, he might be able to neg that given he negated Epitaph's vision, and according to Vel, no matter if Epitaph showed it it wouldn't happen. meaning RTZ can basically just flip off guaranteed outcomes dictated by fate and GER by use of RTZ can avoid fate.

RTZ also demonstrably has stupidly huge range, it was able to effect the whole universe when it restored time, even restring the world itself (that whole crumble away shit is NOT just a effect, King Crimson explicitly notes against Nero when he uses his ability, not only time, but the whole world ceases to be). This tells us RTZ can affect abilities that affect the whole universe, as well as the universe itself, so it SHOULD be capable of affecting an ability like calamity that encompasses the world and much like time skip, negate its effect on himself.

Collisions should be easy to stop, just RTZ whatever the **** is heading towards his ass, the only issue is the more abstract "calamities", like getting aids and dying or just random contact with a calamity causing death. But as long as it isn't instant death it can be healed and nullified so whatever. This likely wouldn't even come into play if RTZ can just neg the flow's effect on GER to begin with.

And GER is well beyond strong enough to mutilate WOU, WOU at best 8-C, GER can straight up kill dudes who gore and kill dudes around WOU's lv. He just can't kill him permanantly, but he probably COULD RTZ his coming back, so like, while he couldn't kill WOU, he could stop him from remanifesting which may as well be the same thing, it'd be solid incap.

Which is to say, idk GER might actually straight up beat WOU, RTZ's like one on-screen feat helps give RTZ the qualifications to null calamity and given GER's whole thing with ignoring fate (aka the flow) and even being able to negate fated events, etc, Ger might be able to just RTZ calamity's affect on him and walk up and punch WOU's head off before RTZ'ing any attempts to reform.
The only problem is GER wouldn't know to stop him from coming back, but nothing stopping him from just brutalizing him again and doing it the second time.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

OK but what if a new Databook lists WoU as the strongest stand above GER-

 

[DRW001]

And GER is well beyond strong enough to mutilate WOU, WOU at best 8-C, GER can straight up kill dudes who gore and kill dudes around WOU's lv. He just can't kill him permanantly, but he probably COULD RTZ his coming back, so like, while he couldn't kill WOU, he could stop him from remanifesting which may as well be the same thing, it'd be solid incap.

Would the infinite death loop help with putting WoU down permanantly if GER's able to beat him to death or some shit?

OK but what if a new Databook lists WoU as the strongest stand above GER-

tbf you could argue that GER/RTZ is above WoU already, given that in the ASBR glossary section RTZ is referred to as 'The Supreme Ability' where WoU or Calamity is given no such title. (though not really sure how canon ASBR is lol)

 

[Chariot190]

OK but what if a new Databook lists WoU as the strongest stand above GER-

Feats and the source material take precedence, databooks only work if they flesh out or corroborate the manga, if something is contradicted it can't be used, and JoJo's guides aren't immune to that, I can think of a few things they say that are heavily contradicted or just straight up misinfo.

I mean it could be the case, but the way it'd have to get to that conclusion is pretty specific, first it would need to elaborate on calamity and make it somehow be above fate instead of just an aspect of it, after separating calamity from fate it would somehow need to write a statement that would make it so RTZ wouldn't affect it, which idk how they'd go about it because they can't say "nothing can avoid calamity" or whatever, because it's been established that Go Beyond, things that don't exist, and spin can, meaning Tusk Act 4, Johnny's Tusk holes, BB, Cream's void can all ignore calamity.

It isn't IMPOSSIBLE, though it would take a miracle for it to be worded in a way to neg RTZ.

 

[Chariot190]

Would the infinite death loop help with putting WoU down permanantly if GER's able to beat him to death or some shit?

No, the death loop is incap. If it can neg calamity as a whole tho from working for WOU, it'd be just another Diavlo situation.

tbf you could argue that GER/RTZ is above WoU already, given that in the ASBR glossary section RTZ is referred to as 'The Supreme Ability' where WoU or Calamity is given no such title. (though not really sure how canon ASBR is lol)

ASBR is just tertiary. But it has some nice clarifications that helps make things less vague. Not usable as a canon source but it is what it is.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Feats and the source material take precedence, databooks only work if they flesh out or corroborate the manga, if something is contradicted it can't be used, and JoJo's guides aren't immune to that, I can think of a few things they say that are heavily contradicted or just straight up misinfo.

I mean it could be the case, but the way it'd have to get to that conclusion is pretty specific, first it would need to elaborate on calamity and make it somehow be above fate instead of just an aspect of it, after separating calamity from fate it would somehow need to write a statement that would make it so RTZ wouldn't affect it, which idk how they'd go about it because they can't say "nothing can avoid calamity" or whatever, because it's been established that Go Beyond, things that don't exist, and spin can, meaning Tusk Act 4, Johnny's Tusk holes, BB, Cream's void can all ignore calamity.

It isn't IMPOSSIBLE, though it would take a miracle for it to be worded in a way to neg RTZ.

It was a jooke, we ain't getting a new guidebook

 

[Chariot190]

We will, eventually, probably. Probably either soon, or in like 7 years. JoJo mag might also help with that. Last few had sone decent info that should be counted as supplementary given the magazine's status.