Why is Human and Athlete level so...low?

[Furudo_Erika]

Oh no, that would be way higher for them. Roundhouse kicks travel around 19 m/s, making them around 2,000 joules, this seems more like a MMA fighter.

I also think I remember an article with a Muay Thai fighter who actually performed a kick that would have been Wall level...sadly I have no idea where to find it anymore.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh no, that would be way higher for them. Roundhouse kicks travel around 19 m/s, making them around 2,000 joules, this seems more like a MMA fighter.

I also think I remember an article with a Muay Thai fighter who actually performed a kick that would have been Wall level...sadly I have no idea where to find it anymore.

Eh no, even that kick wouldn't be Wall level, Georges St. Pierre's 3477 lbs kick (Assuming it's measured in ft-lbs) barely reaches the 5000 J mark.

Second highest dude IIRC was Shogun Rua with his 2749 ft-lb kick.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Those are measured in pounds of FORCE, not energy.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

And if I remember correctly, you cannot find energy from force unless you have a distance to calculate work.

 

[Antoniofer]

You'll not see these kind of feats measured in energy units, as energy is not a useful form to measure damage; instead, stuff like force, acceleration and pressure is used to measure possible injuries.

 

[KLOL506]

Those are measured in pounds of FORCE, not energy.

ft-lbs are a different story, assuming those kicks were indeed measured in ft-lbs, in which case 1 ft-lb is about 1.35582 J.

For example, Frank Bruno's punch was actually measured in ft-lbs instead of the colloquial "pounds of force", which in turn equates to around 1925.261 J of punching power.

Also, what Antoniofer said. We don't measure punches and kicks in energy units IRL, we use methods like force, acceleration and pressure, which really doesn't fit our Attack Potency standards, and most likely never will.

 

[Antoniofer]

They are actually more fitting, along with current and temperature units, but its too late to perform such changes. Even how much damage an explosion can cause is not measured in energy, its measured in pressure (overpressure).

 

[KLOL506]

They are actually more fitting, along with current and temperature units, but its too late to perform such changes. Even how much damage an explosion can cause is not measured in energy, its measured in pressure (overpressure).

20+ forms of ways to attack and to survive stuff is not something I'd call "more fitting".

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway, derailment aside, it wasn't just because a majority of guns were gonna drop to 10-A, the blog also gave a source where various athletes generated energy yields anywhere between 130-170 J.

 

[Antoniofer]

For an accurate measure of capabilities, it is. Take the properties of metals for example, they have a shear strength, UTS, melting point, etc, those properties that measure how much strength or temperature can stand before bending, breaking, melting, etc. Humans work in a similar way: they can stand su much acceleration before suffering secondary effects, at certain level of current they neural signals get nulled, and at another value they may suffer an stroke, certain temperature causes 1st to 3rd burning degrees, etc.

 

[KLOL506]

For an accurate measure of capabilities, it is. Take the properties of metals for example, they have a shear strength, UTS, melting point, etc, those properties that measure how much strength or temperature can stand before bending, breaking, melting, etc. Humans work in a similar way: they can stand su much acceleration before suffering secondary effects, at certain level of current they neural signals get nulled, and at another value they may suffer an stroke, certain temperature causes 1st to 3rd burning degrees, etc.

And thus all forms of consistency essentially become irrelevant at this rate.

 

[Arceus0x]

weren't there babies who lived through multi-story falls and lived unscathed?
Like i get it's a whole miracle but still, from a scientific standpoint...

 

[KLOL506]

weren't there babies who lived through multi-story falls and lived unscathed?
Like i get it's a whole miracle but still, from a scientific standpoint...

No, there were a shit ton of factors attributed to their survival like something breaking their fall or so.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

But are they themselves generating that energy? They used a tool, one with length. This length would have increased to tangential velocity when swung, so it would have transferred more momentum than if they were to use their actual strength.

When you increase the length of an object, the tangential speed increases closer to the end. For example, if you swing something 1 meter in length and the tip speed reaches 20 m/s...if you swing a 2 meter object with the same angular velocity at the pivot point (the shoulder), the tip speed would increase to 40 m/s instead. I believe that source loses credibility because of this, as the athletes did not use their own body. Now if they threw something, likely a baseball ..then yeah, that would be credible.

 

[Arceus0x]

 

[KLOL506]

But are they themselves generating that energy? They used a tool, one with length. This length would have increased to tangential velocity when swung, so it would have transferred more momentum than if they were to use their actual strength.

When you increase the length of an object, the tangential speed increases closer to the end. For example, if you swing something 1 meter in length and the tip speed reaches 20 m/s...if you swing a 2 meter object with the same angular velocity at the pivot point (the shoulder), the tip speed would increase to 40 m/s instead. I believe that source loses credibility because of this, as the athletes did not use their own body. Now if they threw something, likely a baseball ..then yeah, that would be credible.

It does involve throwing a baseball instead of striking one with a bat, in case you're asking.

 

[KLOL506]

Toddler falls from second-floor window - and somehow survives unharmed

WARNING: Distressing content

metro.co.uk

The news article mentions her fall to have been broken by telephone wires.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Let me put it this way...
An average person has enough strength to crack ribs and even fracture bone with a kick. You even tank jumps, which would provide an automatic counterforce that already exceed Human level requirements. One of the main reasons why punches hurt so much, is that the surface area of a fist is actually relatively small, so there is a lot of concentrated energy, which is why they can deal a decent amount of damage, but kicks are still much stronger in comparison.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

A 65kg person jumping off a 1 meter tall ledge would land with a kinetic energy of around 637 joules, which is already Street level. And all of that energy is absorbed by the legs when you land on your feet. One meter isn't that much at all.

 

[KLOL506]

Let me put it this way...
An average person has enough strength to crack ribs and even fracture bone with a kick. You even tank jumps, which would provide an automatic counterforce that already exceed Human level requirements. One of the main reasons why punches hurt so much, is that the surface area of a fist is actually relatively small, so there is a lot of concentrated energy, which is why they can deal a decent amount of damage, but kicks are still much stronger in comparison.

For the first two:

1. Bones by themselves are Street level (The strongest ones in your legs anyway), your internals are a different story.

2. Regarding cracking ribs, it depends heavily upon the angle of attack.

One of the main reasons why punches hurt so much, is that the surface area of a fist is actually relatively small, so there is a lot of concentrated energy, which is why they can deal a decent amount of damage, but kicks are still much stronger in comparison.

Actually, XING06 in this blog's comment (He was the one who originally supervised most of the Human/Athlete/Street level revisions before becoming inactive a few months back) noted that actual true pressure doesn't play a role in most human blunt-force attacks (Specifically punches) unless it's the fingertips, the reason a punch is more painful than a body slam despite wielding the same amount of damage is not due to pressure, but due to a higher impulse.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

It still doesn't change the fact that kicks are naturally stronger than punches, regardless of who does the kick.
Kicks are Athlete level at the lowest, and people can shrug off some things that are Street level.
Shoulder bashing a door would be Athlete level to Street level, and you can do this consistently without sustaining that much damage, the human body is actually quite tough. In fact, I believe bone is 5x stronger than steel by a weight to weight ratio, and a 1cm cube of solid bone can withstand the weight of a pickup truck. That isn't to say the human body is that durable since bones are not completely solid.

 

[KLOL506]

It still doesn't change the fact that kicks are naturally stronger than punches, regardless of who does the kick.
Kicks are Athlete level at the lowest, and people can shrug off some things that are Street level.
Shoulder bashing a door would be Athlete level to Street level, and you can do this consistently without sustaining that much damage, the human body is actually quite tough. In fact, I believe bone is 5x stronger than steel by a weight to weight ratio, and a 1cm cube of solid bone can withstand the weight of a pickup truck. That isn't to say the human body isn't that durable since bones are not completely solid.

I mean, no one is denying that kicks are stronger than punches.

At best, only kicks would be Street level and above for average joes, punches would absolutely not be Street level on average.

And yeah, just because your bones are tough doesn't mean your mushy internals are of the same durability (But then again, it'll depend on your body type and how you work out).

 

[Furudo_Erika]

So, what will be done with kicks then? Kicks easily exceed 100 joules and can reach into Street level for average people. I agree that punches are not Street level for average people, but kicks are just...so much more devastating with the larger mass in a leg and higher speed than a punch. Mostly the speed, as velocity is the biggest contributor to kinetic energy.

 

[KLOL506]

So, what will be done with kicks then? Kicks easily exceed 100 joules and can reach into Street level for average people. I agree that punches are not Street level for average people, but kicks are just...so much more devastating with the larger mass in a leg and higher speed than a punch. Mostly the speed, as velocity is the biggest contributor to kinetic energy.

I guess kicks could be accepted to be Street level then, yeah. Changing the borders for Athlete level however, is most definitely not going to happen.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Cries in Human level .22 LR
Well that's fine. This isn't a CRT for the tiering system, just... something that really bothered me for a long time.
Though if kicks get accepted as Street level...then literally any kickboxer would become Street level, with average people being capable of dealing Street level blows with kicks.

 

[KLOL506]

Cries in Human level .22 LR
Well that's fine. This isn't a CRT for the tiering system, just... something that really bothered me for a long time.
Though if kicks get accepted as Street level...then literally any kickboxer would become Street level, with average people being capable of dealing Street level blows with kicks.

Pro kickboxers were already Street level tho

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I mean, casual people with a bit of kickbox training. Even karate kicks would be Street level, even by lower belt tiers.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, casual people with a bit of kickbox training. Even karate kicks would be Street level, even by lower belt tiers.

aren't karate chops also low-end Street level?

 

[KLOL506]

Cries in Human level .22 LR

.22 LR is Athlete level to Athlete level+, my friend.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I mean, if Human level was capped at 300 joules, then .22 LR would be Human level. It was a joke regarding average kicks capping at Street level.

Anyway, I just ran a small experiment regarding kicks. I timed 20 kicks of mine, with finding the length of a kick by using 90° of the circumference.

After finding the average time per kick and thus the average velocity (~6.186 m/s) and the mass of my leg, my kicks would have have average kinetic energy of around 210 joules (Athlete level+). I also have no martial arts training whatsoever, so this is coming from an "average joe". Though results vary from person to person, this is just what I got.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

So a more heavyweight person with more mass (Like 80kg) would probably be able to perform a Street level kick.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah we should review a few things here and there or else all of humanity besides children is street fighter level

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, if Human level was capped at 300 joules, then .22 LR would be Human level. It was a joke regarding average kicks capping at Street level.

Anyway, I just ran a small experiment regarding kicks. I timed 20 kicks of mine, with finding the length of a kick by using 90° of the circumference.

After finding the average time per kick and thus the average velocity (~6.186 m/s) and the mass of my leg, my kicks would have have average kinetic energy of around 210 joules (Athlete level+). I also have no martial arts training whatsoever, so this is coming from an "average joe". Though results vary from person to person, this is just what I got.

I think in these cases we might also have to take into account Rotational KE if you're applying a kick in a rotatory manner like a Roundhouse kick, which is unlike, say, a Sparta kick. But then there's the fact that there's more than just using the leg's mass into a kick because kicks like these also use the entire body weight for maximum effect so...

 

[Furudo_Erika]

So if you actually put some body weight into the kick as well, it would be even higher.

 

[KLOL506]

So if you actually put some body weight into the kick as well, it would be even higher.

yeah but the body part is hella complicated and doesn't end at the normal KE formula, there are other techniques for that which I am in the dark about.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Finding out inertia is a pain, but I'll do my best. I already have the angular velocity, which was easy to find.
This is mostly an estimation, besides...not like it would hurt anything.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Does the Rotational KE get added to the energy...or is it its own thing?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Although I wouldn't really call what I did a rotatory kick. It was a kick from the ground to a 90 degree angle forward. It does have an arc, so I found the arc length of the kick, which divided by the time...I still got around the same velocity as before, so both methods get me around 210 joules.

 

[KLOL506]

Although I wouldn't really call what I did a rotatory kick. It was a kick from the ground to a 90 degree angle forward. It does have an arc, so I found the arc length of the kick, which divided by the time...I still got around the same velocity as before, so both methods get me around 210 joules.

I guess RKE is unnecessary then, IIRC RKE only applies if you go a full 360 degrees to get full power.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

So I guess 210 joules is my result then if that's the case.