Why is Human and Athlete level so...low?

[Furudo_Erika]

So, let me review all of this into a short summary.
Kicks are quite a bit stronger than punches, with even the average kick being Athlete level, with some even reaching into Street level. Roundhouse kicks can even reach around 2,000 joules from the opening, although these are from professional kickboxers. So with this, even average humans can have Athlete level to Street level AP with kicks, with professionals reaching quite a bit higher.

This isn't to say to change the upper limit of Human level to 300 joules with the baseline for Athlete level being 300 joules with the cap reaching 2,000 joules, as that would make most lower caliber firearms and melee weapons Athlete level to Athlete level+. However, humans are capable of dealing much more damage than their initial tier with kicks.

Although, perhaps it is better to get other people's opinion as well on this.

 

[KLOL506]

Pro MMA kicks exceeding 2000 joules was actually an accepted thing when we had Composite Human as a profile on the main wiki.

Then again, where are we even gonna apply the kicks value to? It's not like we have an Average Joe profile to edit on either.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

It doesn't really have to be applied, as this isn't a CRT. Just that average humans can physically deal more damage than their tier may assume.

 

[KLOL506]

It doesn't really have to be applied, as this isn't a CRT. Just that humans can deal more damage than their tier may assume.

I mean, yeah sure, but where would we even add that?

 

[Wokistan]

It's low because it's scaled to punches, yeah. A lot of people aren't that strong, and to boot it's off a jab and not something you really put your weight in to.

I'm not sure where you're getting that a kick is faster than a punch, because people can absolutely snap out a quick jab before they can properly get a kick going. Those too you also tend to put your body weight in to.

On a semi related note, a measly 150 joules to the head is usually fatal. Here's another example of serious injury occurring at not very high numbers. Hell I think even the bone break number we use is down at 375J or whatever.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Perhaps a note section under the tiering system?
Saying that humans can cause more damage with certain attacks?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

It's low because it's scaled to punches, yeah. A lot of people aren't that strong, and to boot it's off a jab and not something you really put your weight in to.

I'm not sure where you're getting that a kick is faster than a punch, because people can absolutely snap out a quick jab before they can properly get a kick going. Those too you also tend to put your body weight in to.

On a semi related note, a measly 150 joules to the head is usually fatal.

Let me elaborate on kicking speed.
I mean the velocity of the kick itself, not the wind-up. Kicks are slower to pull off, but they are quicker in terms of tangential velocity.
Which it is THIS velocity that is used for kinetic energy.

 

[Wokistan]

Actually, that brings me to something. When I noticed you had higher female values, that tipped me off to a bit of an oversight. See, 65kg for a man is not that high. Meanwhile for a woman at average height, that's into the overweight territory going off BMI. BMI obviously has a bunch of problems, but it ends up as a weird default to use for both sexes for different reasons.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I just used the average for Average Human lifting strength.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Heights and weight also depends on nationality as well, 80kg for an American man seems more accurate for example, while a Japanese man is around 62kg and is a bit shorter than the average American male.

 

[Wokistan]

The other fun figure is that standing up is ~600j when using average height and weight, but then you still have the figure of 150J to the head almost always being fatal.

The answer here is more or less that it's not feasible to model this properly because human output varies too much for the tiering system, so it just got chosen to scale to a jab or whatever. I don't think moving the borders around really will accomplish much of anything because you have the same issues no matter what figure you chose, but we should be clearer about 100j not being considered to be an average tackle or whatever.

 

[KLOL506]

On a semi related note, a measly 150 joules to the head is usually fatal. Here's another example of serious injury occurring at not very high numbers. Hell I think even the bone break number we use is down at 375J or whatever.

Which supports the fact that while your bones are strong, your innards aren't.

The 375 J is a 5 degree angle of impact, when the attack angle goes up to 90 degrees, the energy required to break bones increases to a whopping 9920 J

 

[KLOL506]

The other fun figure is that standing up is ~600j when using average height and weight, but then you still have the figure of 150J to the head almost always being fatal.

The answer here is more or less that it's not feasible to model this properly because human output varies too much for the tiering system, so it just got chosen to scale to a jab or whatever. I don't think moving the borders around really will accomplish much of anything because you have the same issues no matter what figure you chose, but we should be clearer about 100j not being considered to be an average tackle or whatever.

I mean, that's not even the main purpose of this thread. Just that kicks on average deal more hurt than punches. That's it.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Well, the head is a weak point, even a punch to the forehead can cause blunt force trauma and concussion. So that's more targeting a weak point, but you can take a 150j punch to the stomach decently well and have a higher rate of survival, though it may likely knock the wind out of you or possibly knock you unconscious, even hitting the femur would probably not do a whole lot to you due to how strong the femur is. So again, in real life...there are waaay too many variables.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

A strong enough kick is actually able to literally cave in a person's face and crush the skull, though this is probably reaching MMA territory.

 

[KLOL506]

A strong enough kick is actually able to literally cave in a person's face and crush the skull, though this is probably reaching MMA territory.

yeah, this is indeed MMA territory.

Though completely crushing a skull is sorta farfetched.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Not completely crushing the skull, more like severe fracture.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Either way, a 2,000+ joule kick to the face...a person is likely not living through that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We judge them based on punching; which on average is 10-B; though kicks are usually 10-A on average with body slamming being 9-C as other said. Even standing up would be 9-C levels of GPE.

 

[KLOL506]

We judge them based on punching; which on average is 10-B; though kicks are usually 10-A on average with body slamming being 9-C as other said. Even standing up would be 9-C levels of GPE.

Nah, as with the evidence above, kicks on average would be high-end Athlete level+ to low-end Street level, with only pro MMA fighters being able to achieve 2000 J kicks and above.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I personally believe all orthodox methods of fighting should be what is used, not just punching. It makes more sense in my opinion as it provides more of the actual limit normal humans are capable of. Standing up or tackling should not be used, unless it is stated that tackling is their primary form of offensive, like a football player or animals such as boars, bulls, or elephants charging at their target.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Punching and kicking is what I would call orthodox methods of fighting, while things like charging or tackling depends on context.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah like, we're not legless, we'll be pulling kicks given the chance.

Also the head is a weak point. It contains the brain and any significant damage could already kill you.
On the other hand, you have all the other body parts that are even harder to break and have fat which breaks the KE a bit.

Scaling off of the head is like scaling human durability of off the balls.

 

[KLOL506]

I was gonna mention the head being a weak point but Furudo already hit the nail on the head.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Yeah, I don't think a person getting killed by a 150j to the head should not be a viable feat for the upper limit of an average person, as so much can happen due to it being a vulnerable area.

There are also methods to lessen the effects, such as "riding the punch" to effectively lower the net force of the punch, thus making it less effective, but getting hit by the full force can cause brain damage and concussion by knocking the brain around from the force.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

bump