Old Ones (Dark Tower) Upgrade

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Old_Ones_(The_Dark_Tower)

Universes in an Atom :

["Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
"Size, gunslinger... size.]

An atom contains infinite universes.


Endless 'Floors' :

["Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...]

Above 'endless reality', which, in Dark Tower's case, may be Floors = Layers. Endless Layers.

[Short-Timers and Long-Timers live in overlapping spheres of existence -on connected floors of the same building if you like - ruled by the Random and the Purpose. Above these floors, inaccessible to us but very much a part of the same tower of existence, live other beings. Some of them are marvelous and wonderful; others are hideous beyond out ability to comprehend, let alone yours. These beings might be called the Higher Purpose and the Higher Random.]

Beings on lower floor can't comprehend beings of higher floors.

The Dark Tower :

["Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities,]

Dark Tower contains all possible manifestations of life and experience.

["Would you risk destroying that world as well as this, and the other worlds sai King has touched with his imagination, and drawn from? For it was not he that created them, you know. To peek in Gans navel does not make one Gan, although many creative people seem to think so. Would you risk it all?"- The Dark Tower]

How Stephen King's (real world author of Dark Tower) DTverse really acknowledged as work of his, but…

["No writer is Gan - no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music. We are kas-ka Gan.......The prophets of Gan." - The Dark Tower]
He did not create DTverse with his writing as many metahax characters can. Gan created them. Authors of fictional stories, are all Prophets of Gan, Singers of Gan's song. They may write stories, but Gan is the one who made them Real in Endless Realities of Dark Tower. In other words, Dark Tower contains exact copies of every fictional universes

["They look like Doctor Doom." Eddie said.
"Yeah," Jake said. "It's not exact, I'm sure the masks were modified to make them look more like wolves, but otherwise...same green hoods, same green cloaks. Yeah, Doctor Doom."
"And the sneetches," Eddie said. "Have you ever heard of Harry Potter?"
"I dont think so. Have you?"]

Marvel's Doctor Doom and Harry Potters' 'sneetches'. Further proving all fictions on real life maybe somewhere already exist in the Dark Tower. Including fictions that have Infinite Dimensions/Metaphysics/Transduality realm too, probably. Or maybe planes like Umineko's Sea of Nothingness or Lovecraft Myth's Ultimate Void (someone says it has been hinted Lovecraft Myth beings also exist within Dark Tower, but I just can't find relevant quote). If this claim is accepted, then that'd make Dark Tower Tier 1-A by itself.

[and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White." - The Gunslinger Born]

Original Beams which holds all Endless Realities together.

Finally, the Great Old Ones :

They're Humans of All-World who replaced Dark Tower's Beams with their own Technological Beams.

["The Great Old Ones didn't make the world, but they did re-make it. Some tale-tellers say the Beams saved it; others say they are the seeds of the world's destruction. The Great Old Ones created the Beams. They are lines of some sort… lines which bind . . . and hold . . ."
"Are you talking about magnetism?" Susannah asked cautiously. His whole face lit up, transforming its harsh planes and furrows into something new and amazing, and for a moment Eddie knew how Roland would look if he actually did reach his Tower.
"Yes! Not just magnetism, but that is a part of it … and gravity . . . and the proper alignment of space, size, and dimension. The Beams are the forces which bind these things together." - The Waste Lands]

GOO created Beams which give proper alignment to space, size and dimension of endless floors of the Dark Tower. And if 'dimension' here means 'dimensions', then each floor above may have infinitely increasing number of dimensions.

["When everything was new, the Great Old Ones—they weren't gods, but people who had almost the knowledge of gods—created Twelve Guardians to stand watch at the twelve portals which lead in and out of the world. Sometimes I heard that these portals were natural things, like the constel-lations we see in the sky or the bottomless crack in the earth we called Dragon's Grave, because of the great burst of steam they gave off every thirty or forty days.

But other people—one I remember in particular, the head cook in my father's castle, a man named Hax—said they were not natural, that they had been created by the Great Old Ones themselves, in the days before they hanged themselves with pride like a noose and disappeared from the earth. Hax used to say that the creation of the Twelve Guardians was the last act of the Great Old Ones, their attempt to atone for the great wrongs they had done to each other, and to the earth itself." - The Waste Lands]

More on GOO creating Beams, and Guardians to protect the Beams.

[For their own decadent entertainment, they created doorways that led from their world to other wheres and whens on every level of the Tower.]

GOO can access all Endless Floors of the Tower. Means, if DT really contains all copies of fictional universes, GOO would know about them all already. They're the ones who hold all realities together after all. And if it even contain various settings' 'Outerverses', then GOO might be Tier 1-A

[the great technological advances of the Old People made possible not just the destruction of one level of the Tower but the obliteration of all of them.]

Old Ones can destroy whole Dark Tower. All Endless Floors. (Possibly) including fictional realities inside.

Wiki said :
[When the ka-tet stops the Breakers at Blue Heaven, the Bear-Turtle beam starts to recover, and it is implied that it will heal, and the destroyed beams will start to rebuild themselves.]

GOO's Beams, even when while they're already destroyed, are perfectly capable of self-repair on their own even without maintenance from Old Ones (this is after Old Ones wiped themselves out in some civil war).

Wiki said :

[Likewise, it is implied that this means that the worlds that have "moved on" may come back to
order and life. While it is impossible to instantly restore the technology of the Old Ones, it can be hoped that a peaceful civilization will again be possible.]
Worlds that has moved on may come back to life. Regenerated. Including Endless Floors above which 'beyond all comprehension'. Indicating GOO can just easily create worlds and destroy them.

To summarize, I propose High 1-B, Possibly/Likely Tier 1-A rating for Old Ones.

Bump. I 100% agree with high 1-B level.

Also, their current profile is poor, we may add more abilities to them. They are similar to Downstreamers who have very "wide" profile here.

@Jockey-1337 well. I actually just need to bring one of admin to this thread for the revision (no one seems to know much about Dark Tower anyway), but I still haven't made the profile yet, so maybe later...

Bump?

Well, while High 1-B seems fine based on the description of the Dark Tower's floors, we cannot scale to other continuities.

Based on that description, 1-A Gan seems obvious, but the Old Ones should only be High 1-B if they are not explicitly stated to transcend it, even if they destroy it.

@Promestein

Thank your for your response.

Yeah, there's something called 'Discordia' in DTverse. It is the 'Outerverse' of DTverse. Old Ones could create 'balcony' (reality outside Dark Tower) with one of their tech, but they are implied to not be able to survive in Discordia itself.

In fact, that's whole plot of Crimson King (dark aspect of Gan). He want to destroy DT, free the Daemons/Outer Dark (his brethren possibly, Creatures of the Prim). As such, he seeks to break GOO's Beams, collapse the Dark Tower and rule over Creatures of Prim in Outerverse beyond Dark Tower (Discordia).

Ehm, back to Old Ones, what kind of 'High 1-B' they're getting? Normal? At least?

Well, the name "Balcony" implies that it is connected to the Dark Tower, still, so it's probably just a higher degree of High 1-B, so normal High 1-B would probably be best.

If Gan is 1-A, Crimson King should also probably be 1-A, then.

@Promestein

yeah, IIRC Gan is only 'Likely 1-A'.

Also I got this from another forums

There are also other Outsiders (like Gan) that exist in some form of Duality. They have Avatars/ Can Tahs in the Tower but exist outside of it simultaneusly. Like IT/Pennywise, who has an Avatar in Derry, but also exists in the Form of the Deadlights outside of the Tower. Other named examples would be Tak or Perse and possibly Cthun as well. The Great Ones and Dark Ones should be Outsiders too.
Technically, Gan and Dis are also Outsiders, they exist outside/beyond the Tower but also have their Avatars in Reality. Gan has the Tower/the Rose/the Talisman etc., and Dis has Los/the Crimson King.
Yeah... DTverse have bunch of 1-As I think...

But about editing... Maybe I'd start 'renovating' GOO's profile first, it might take some time so revision might come bit later (... well, maybe 'very' later).

Or maybe is there someone more knowledgable on Dark Tower?

I asked Tik on SB and he said Gan is omnipotent is that true?

Become the strongest said:

I asked Tik on SB and he said Gan is omnipotent is that true?

Click to expand...

Do you realise that word "omnipotent" is a logical black hole?

Gan, TOAA, Presence, ect - all of them are "omnipotents", but on the other hand fictional character cannot be omnipotent. So it is up to you.

Promestein said:

Well, while High 1-B seems fine based on the description of the Dark Tower's floors, we cannot scale to other continuities.

Click to expand...

well, Stephen King actually also wrote few Cthulhu Mythos books under 'New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos' IIRC. With one of them containing Lovecraft's Shub-Nigghurath (A Tier 1-A).

And all stories written by King is contained within the Tower IIRC. Because King himself is a Prophet of Gan in-universe. Have metahax power to control whole story (probably including 1-A beings in it too). But its still Gan's power, King just 'borrows' Gan's power.

Based on that description, 1-A Gan seems obvious, but the Old Ones should only be High 1-B if they are not explicitly stated to transcend it, even if they destroy it.
Well, Creatures of Prim like Gan and Crimson King are trapped inside the Tower (despite transcending the Tower) IIRC. Which means the Tower could bind 1-A beings inside it. Maybe the Tower is Tier 1-A realm IMO. Which make sense if it truly could contain Lovecraft's Tier 1-As too.

Crimson King's objective is to free his brethren, Creatures of Prim (probably all 1-As like himself) and rule over Discordia (not so much a place actually, but a 'victory condition'/'state' if Dark Tower falls, which Great Old Ones vehemently, ironically wanted to prevent).

And Great Old Ones are boasted (or maybe they really could?) to be able to rebuilt the Tower from scratch if they so desire (they only stopped because they fight among themselves). Which make them Tier 1-A if Tower is truly Tier 1-A realm. And also implied GOO's transcendence over the Tower since you can't rebuilt the Tower is you'll be inconvenienced by its destruction.

Furthermore, Crimson King (evil half of Gan, he's rated at Likely Tier 1-A) needs long time to break Great Old Ones' stubborn Beams (despite being Tier 1-A himself, or maybe because his real form is trapped somewhere on the Tower. Either way, either Tower could Beams both could **** up his Tier 1-A self), even then, destroyed Beams still are able to repair themselves even after got destroyed. Kinda speak much if when even Tier 1-A character need to go extra length to destroy your things.

The only Cthulhu Mythos works we accept as canon are those by Lovecraft. Unless King portrayed the entities within his works as 1-A, it can't be used to scale.

I don't know how to interpret the 1-A beings being trapped within the Tower. It makes 1-A a distinct possibility.

Promestein said:

The only Cthulhu Mythos works we accept as canon are those by Lovecraft. Unless King portrayed the entities within his works as 1-A, it can't be used to scale.

Click to expand...

Well, there wasn't enough description to determine wether Shub-Nigghurath in "Crouch End" is Tier 1-A or not. But Nyarlathothep and Yog-sothoth are mentioned in it too... without feats of course. As if readers are supposed to already know said "feats".

And Shub-Nigghurath's only feat in "Crouch End" is dragging human victim to some kind of Lovecraftian dimension and... that's it.

But there's fair possibility of Tower containing it though since...

Each of its narrow twisting stairways led to a different level of creation - a distant time period said:

I don't know how to interpret the 1-A beings being trapped within the Tower. It makes 1-A a distinct possibility.

Click to expand...

Creatures of Prim, including Gan, are born from Prim. Prim is some kind of Primordial Chaos.

Creatures of Prim actually are suppressed by existence of the Tower which Gan created. Probably Todash Space is filled with Prim Creatures too. Which maybe the reason why Crimson King want to topple the Tower. To return Creatures of Prim to their 'natural habitat'. The Nothingness(?)/Chaos of Prim.

Gan himself actually didn't create Beams that held Dark Tower together. Prim does. Beams arose from Primordial Chaos itself, just like Gan. Gan just created multiverse from dripping waters from his navel, then he grabbed the Beams, and set nice foundation to hold all realities together.

Which means Beams, wether its Original or Old Ones', are independent/beyond of all concepts entirely since Beams predate multiverse/physical reality as Gan had to create multiverse from his navel first. Reality need Beams (as it could be said Beams provide formal basis for reality), but Beams don't need Reality.

This kinda make Original Beams have possibility of being Tier 1-A themselves since they arose directly fom Prim. And Gan just grabbed them as foundations for his Tower.

Dark Tower also said to have theme of "All things serve the Beams" from the wiki. Beams are always favoured.

And Great Old Ones destroyed Original Beams and replaced them with theirs as new foundations of Dark Tower. If Beams are truly Tier 1-A things, then Great Old Ones are definitely Tier 1-A. Which kinda makes sense if Beams had to held many (possibly countless) 1-A beings inside the Tower, and without Beams, the Tower would 'fall'. Beams are definitely important here.

And Great Old Ones' Beams are the only thing between Force of Random (Crimson King and his allies, Creatures of Prim and the like) and their Omnicidal plan of destroying the Tower. Though ironically, many of Old Ones' accomplishments unwittingly helped Forces of Random in their quest to topple the Dark Tower.

I would not really have a problem with straight up 1-A Gan, but I'm not entirely sure what others think.

However, we cannot scale Gan to the other franchises mentioned in the series, as that makes no sense. It's about as legit as saying SMT contains the entire Cthulhu Mythos or that the TMNT are 1-A for fighting Shub-Niggurath. Or even more directly related to the subject, saying Yog-Sothoth is above all fictional Tier 0 beings since according to Lovecraft's response when being asked where he keeps ideas such as Yog-Sothoth, he states that he doesn't, and that it truly is a real entity.

King's quote about writers and artists all being prophets of Gan is pretty much directly ripped from "Through the Gates of the Silver Key", since unsurprisingly, King is a huge Lovecraft fan. In fact, based on the source material, it would be easier to argue that Gan is merely a tiny fragmented view of Yog-Sothoth than arguing the Mythos is contained in the Tower. Both arguments, however, are utter bullshit for extremely obvious reasons.

However, on the subject of everything else...not really sure.

For instance, the Beams, which you are arguing to be 1-A, have immensely lower showings than what is being mentioned here. For instance, Shardik, who is one of the Beam guardians, not only has his brain eaten away by maggots, but is also then killed by people. This is not something metaphorical in nature, but an actual event that occurs. (You could argue Shardik is infinitely less powerful than other guardians due to being made by the GOOs, but then why would they make something so shit-tier if they really did have unlimited power on a dimensional scale?) The Beams can be restored, but are not exactly difficult to destroy.

A lot of this also stems from the fact that the Dark Tower is so hilariously inconsistent at many points that it's hard to properly tier.

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

Are the Great Old Ones mentioned in the Dark Tower books supposed to be Lovecraft's entities?

If they are High 1-B, and Outer Gods also exist within his series, then I would assume 1-A would only be logical for Yog and the like.

But if it's just that vague, I don't know.

1-A Gan seems 100% justifiable, as always.

@Azzy

This does lead to an interesting hypothetical discussion.

What if any author out there, incorporated Lovecraft's full mythology into his larger Cosmology, and when asked about it in an interview, he states that "All of Lovecraft's own stories, from Call of Cthulhu, Through the Gates of the Silver Key, At the Mountains of Madness, etc, are canon to my universe. They are all things that happened, and his characters exist in my series."

I am paraphrasing, but similar answers could also work. Basically, an author incorporates Lovecraft's mythology extremely faithfully into his work, with direct quotes, stuff like 1-A feats, and also that author's statement.

But Yoggy and Azzy are still beneath his own invented Supreme God character. How would we approach that? Would we treat it as bullshit, and only use feats from his own books, or would we indeed have to rate those versions of Yog and Azathoth as High 1-A?

I am, of course, completely against cross-fiction scaling, but with works that are in the public domain, there's nothing stopping an author to grabbing those stories and incorporating them into his fiction.

Thank you all for your responses! (and sorry for late reply! >_<)

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:

I would not really have a problem with straight up 1-A Gan, but I'm not entirely sure what others think. However, we cannot scale Gan to the other franchises mentioned in the series, as that makes no sense. It's about as legit as saying SMT contains the entire Cthulhu Mythos or that the TMNT are 1-A for fighting Shub-Niggurath. Or even more directly related to the subject, saying Yog-Sothoth is above all fictional Tier 0 beings since according to Lovecraft's response when being asked where he keeps ideas such as Yog-Sothoth, he states that he doesn't, and that it truly is a real entity.

Click to expand...

yes, I could see how treating King's Shub-Nigghurath as Lovecraft's Tier 1-A could be a problem, just as @Promestein said.

King's quote about writers and artists all being prophets of Gan is pretty much directly ripped from "Through the Gates of the Silver Key", since unsurprisingly, King is a huge Lovecraft fan. In fact, based on the source material, it would be easier to argue that Gan is merely a tiny fragmented view of Yog-Sothoth than arguing the Mythos is contained in the Tower. Both arguments, however, are utter bullshit for extremely obvious reasons.
ok. fair points. And there's one more Lovecraft reference in Dark Tower

Dark tower also have Yog-sothoth reference in the form of Gan.

Jack Sawyer has a brief glimpse of Gan's nature when he held The Silver Key the Talisman. From my understanding, it shows all things are just facets of Gan. All great thinkers artists, wizards authors are all Gan (at least, al things in Dark Tower are...). Gan the... uh, 'God'?

Ehm, basically, Jack Sawyer is replicating 'Randolph Carter Yog-sothoth scene' when he picks up The Silver Key the Talisman

In one sense he was not in the Agincourt at all, not in Point Venuti, not in Mendocino County, not in California, not in the American Territories, not in those other Territories; but he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds.
The Talisman, it seemed, was much more than even his father had believed. It was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves-the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds.

Jack Saywer was everywhere; Jack Sawyer was everything. A blade of grass on a world fifty thousand worlds down the chain from earth died of thirst on an inconsequential plain somewhere in the center of a continent which roughly corresponded in position to Africa; Jack died with that blade of grass. In another world, dragons were copulating in the center of a cloud high above the planet, and the fiery breath of their ecstasy mixed with the cold air and precipitated rain and floods on the ground below. Jack was the he-dragon; Jack was the she-dragon; Jack was the sperm; Jack was the egg. Far out in the ether a million universes away, three specks of dust floated near one another in interstellar space. Jack was the dust, and Jack was the space between.

Galaxies unreeled around his head like long spools of paper, and fate punched each in random patterns, turning them into macro-cosmic player-piano tapes which would play everything from ragtime to funeral dirges.

Jack's happy teeth bit an orange; Jack's unhappy flesh screamed as the teeth tore him open. He was a trillion dust-kitties under a billion beds.

He was the powdered henshit in Buddy Parkins's nose, he was the trembling hairs that would soon cause Buddy Parkins to sneeze; he was the sneeze; he was the germs in the sneeze; he was the atoms in the germs; he was the tachyons in the atoms travelling backward through time toward the big bang at the start of creation.

He saw a googolplex of sparrows in a googolplex of worlds and marked the fall or the well-being of each.

He died in the Gehenna of Territories ore-pit mines.

He lived as a flu-virus in Etheridge's tie.

He ran in a wind over far places.

He was...

Oh he was...

He was God. God, or something so close as to make no difference.
Ehm, okay, now we got that out of the way...

However, on the subject of everything else...not really sure.
For instance, the Beams, which you are arguing to be 1-A, have immensely lower showings than what is being mentioned here. For instance, Shardik, who is one of the Beam guardians, not only has his brain eaten away by maggots, but is also then killed by people. This is not something metaphorical in nature, but an actual event that occurs. (You could argue Shardik is infinitely less powerful than other guardians due to being made by the GOOs, but then why would they make something so shit-tier if they really did have unlimited power on a dimensional scale?) The Beams can be restored, but are not exactly difficult to destroy.

A lot of this also stems from the fact that the Dark Tower is so hilariously inconsistent at many points that it's hard to properly tier.
a fair concern. I can't really refute your argument since the only thing that is consistent it seems is just Gan. But there's this quote :

The cyborgs are but mechanical equivalents of the tiny stone can-tah, or little gods, carved in the likeness of the Beams sacred beasts. Whether giant robot or small palm stone, both are essentially magical objects created to focus and harness the tremendous protective force radiated by the true Guardians who exist outside of time and space and beyond the fluctuations of ka. - The Long Road Home
err, so yeah, I think the Cyborg Guardians are just 'representatives' of real thing. Just like Rose and Talisman are 'representatives' of Dark Tower.

Stephen King seems very fond of using 'representatives' which are much weaker than their 'real' counterparts. This... should get rid off any 'inconsistencies'?

Antvasima said:

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

Click to expand...

True.

no. Both are two different things. Lovecraft's GOO are super-aliens who predates the universe. While King's GOO are Humans with superadvanced technology that can beat reality into submission.

1-A Gan seems 100% justifiable said:

@Azzy This does lead to an interesting hypothetical discussion.

What if any author out there, incorporated Lovecraft's full mythology into his larger Cosmology, and when asked about it in an interview, he states that "All of Lovecraft's own stories, from Call of Cthulhu, Through the Gates of the Silver Key, At the Mountains of Madness, etc, are canon to my universe. They are all things that happened, and his characters exist in my series."

I am paraphrasing, but similar answers could also work. Basically, an author incorporates Lovecraft's mythology extremely faithfully into his work, with direct quotes, stuff like 1-A feats, and also that author's statement.

But Yoggy and Azzy are still beneath his own invented Supreme God character. How would we approach that? Would we treat it as bullshit, and only use feats from his own books, or would we indeed have to rate those versions of Yog and Azathoth as High 1-A?

I am, of course, completely against cross-fiction scaling, but with works that are in the public domain, there's nothing stopping an author to grabbing those stories and incorporating them into his fiction.

Click to expand...

Yes, I think that'd lead to headache. I also would agree to not use cross-fiction scaling for Lovecraft/King works (for now anyway, hehe. Right now I can't figure out how that'd work). King's have Mythos' equivalent to Outer Gods anyway if we want Tier 1-A scaling (Creatures of the Prim that is).

Which means, the only problem here is inconsistency. We have High 1-B (or 1-A) Old Ones but we also have 7-B Old Ones because of inconsistent showings.

But as I already pointed out, 8-C Tiered Shardik is just representative of Real Shardik (Mir?) which resides beyond time and space and fluctuations of ka (ka means destiny). There's also term 'metaphysical map' and 'macroverse', maybe that's something like Monitor Sphere/Source Sphere/whatever Sphere of DCverse.

So I think that take care of inconsistency. What do you think, Azathoth?

@Matt

Presumably the same way we treat it as when Suggs says it. We ignore it. If a writer creates a setting with characters of a certain tier, we only follow what is canon to that original setting. Another writer changing things at a later date in a completely different setting means nothing. If I make a fanfiction in which I say "Everything in the Cthulhu Mythos is canon to this fanfiction", and then I have Nyarlathotep get shot in the kneecap with a glock, it does not mean all glocks are 1-A. It means I am obviously not following everything laid out in the original work, since I am not the creator nor someone who helped mold it, and thus things in it would not scale to my work unless explicitly shown.

It's similar to why it's in most cases better to not have expanded mythos profiles, here. We'd have about several dozen High 1-As and about half as many tier 0s, which makes no sense whatsoever.

@Bla

Something like that, though we still run into the issue of their higher selves being affected by things that happen to their lower manifestations (ex: Beams crumbling due to lower representations of the guardians being slain), which I will have to look into, more. However, as I said before, I am completely fine with 1-A Gan regardless, and I would assume CK scales to that, as well.

@Azathoth

I want to see true form Nyarlathotep get blown to bits by Jugg the Librarian with a Glock. That was an inside joke, by the way.

Oh, right, the upgrades. Hmm... I think that BlaLig makes a compelling arguement. Perhaps it would behoove us to take a closer look at the capabilities of the lower manifestations of the Old Ones? The Old Ones could just be one of those cases where a higher-dimensional entity can be affected if its manifestation bodies are destroyed. I mean, there isn't really any standard in real life to compare to how authors write such things, so there probably isn't any reason to not go through with the upgrades unless something contradictory is brought to light.

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:

@Bla

Something like that, though we still run into the issue of their higher selves being affected by things that happen to their lower manifestations (ex: Beams crumbling due to lower representations of the guardians being slain), which I will have to look into, more. However, as I said before, I am completely fine with 1-A Gan regardless, and I would assume CK scales to that, as well.

Click to expand...

Ok.

And it seems Dark Tower's Macroverse (All-World?) have similarity to Umineko's City of Books. Maybe All-World is some kind of Meta-World too? In City of Books one book contain multiverse. While In Dark Tower Macroverse, an atom contains infinite universes.

This... would be hilarious if all human character get 2-B scaling by virtue of living in Macroverse. Then again, we have Ushiromiyas scaled at Tier 1-B simply by them being in higher-layer of reality...

Thank you ^_^

Perhaps it would behoove us to take a closer look at the capabilities of the lower manifestations of the Old Ones? The Old Ones could just be one of those cases where a higher-dimensional entity can be affected if its manifestation bodies are destroyed. I mean, there isn't really any standard in real life to compare to how authors write such things, so there probably isn't any reason to not go through with the upgrades unless something contradictory is brought to light.
Hmm, now that you brought it up, I actually don't remember any passage mentioning Beams get broken because their Guardians get killed (its only mentioned that Beams breaking would kill Spirit of the Beams). Cyborg Guardians are just solar cells which get their energy from Real Guardians. Real Guardians themselves won't be bothered if their 'avatars', their Cyborg selves get destroyed or not (to my knowledge anyway).
IIRC Dark Tower also have many forms/avatars(?). Rose and Talisman are examples. I only know about Talisman though since it reminds me of Silver Key. Even then, Talisman itself seems powerful enough to have multiversal capability. Maybe Jack Saywer would have 1-A rating just as Randolph Carter?

Hmm... Macroverse, City of Books, Monitor Sphere...

I agree with Azathoth.

Antvasima said:

I agree with Azathoth.

Click to expand...

okay, I finished making Gan & CK revisions. You could take it from links below whenever anyone could do the revision :

Gan : http://pastebin.com/dl/v0nzVzYS ---> page to be revised https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ga

Crimson King : http://pastebin.com/dl/txhCwHTC ---> page to be revised https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Crimson_King

Old Ones revision would come later ^_^ ...

Old Ones revision done! Please look at my revision and put it on the page if its accepted...

Bump

Someone needs to edit the profile.

What was the conclusion here?

That the Great Old Ones are High 1-B.

Okay. Should you or Azathoth handle it?

Bump

Bump

You can message Azathoth about responding here if you wish.

As mentioned before, Dark Tower scaling can get a bit weird, but I see no problem with the GOOs themselves being High 1-B.

Okay. Thanks. I would appreciate if you could appropriately adjust any relevant profiles.

I am currently out and on my phone, so it's significantly harder for me to perform profile edits. I can do so in about an hour and a half when I get home, if you wish.

Ok, thank you

Okay. No problem.

I have updated the profile, though I still want to add more to it, later on.

Okay. Thank you for the help.