Why do ship speeds scale to the pilots' reactions?

[LordXcano]

For example, a ship has a calculated speed of Mach 50. We later see them avoiding debris while trying to escape, say, an exploding base later on. Why does this prove they have Mach 50 reactions? Yes, I get that they are "booking it", but the fact they are trying to escape at all proves they aren't suicidally stupid. Isn't it entirely possible they just, well, slowed down?

This is doubly true for in-atmosphere feats. A vast majority of the time (bar things that are almost entirely Earth-based) a ship's speed in-atmosphere tends to be explicitly lower. Even provided it isn't, it makes a lot of sense for a captain to not be piloting it at MFTL+ speeds when that would put them at huge risk of harm.

This is triply true when you consider the fact fiction is super inconsistent and has a lot of varying speeds. Star Trek had a literal technical manual to prevent contradictions in their capabilities and they still ended up with 765,000c feats for their ship despite higher warp factors being canonically just 1331c.

tl;dr Shouldn't feats of "reacting while piloting a ship" only scale if the pilot reacts during said travel feat? Other instances could simply be slower.

 

[Antoniofer]

Pilots speed shouldn't scale to the speed of their vehicule, same way why there's no Mach 2 jet pilots, or superhuman truck drivers, and those guys from Fast and Furious and Mad Max; that only would scale to their driver skill, not any kind of speed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

^ Does depend. In general, real life pilots can't react to thing very close to them. That's why there is so many accidents. For it to scale to reactions, they would need to react to very upclose objects while driving at full speed.

 

[LordXcano]

That's what I'm saying, but I've seen it around. Spike Spiegel and USS Enterprise for example.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. This is an important topic, and you make good points. I will highlight the thread, and move it to the staff board.

 

[Sera_EX]

As Matthew and Ven had explained it to me, if you are going a certain speed, you should have relative reactions otherwise you'd make mistakes. For example: race car drivers have to train their reflexes and reaction time because they are driving at speeds up to 400+ km/h (at max). Compare that to a casual everyday driver on their way to work, usually going 72 km/h. If you can't react to your surroundings at a high speeds, you would crash or go off course every time you took a turn at a high speed or something caught you off guard.

Now let's apply to this to flying a ship. Obviously someone is piloting the ship (unless it's auto pilot). In some stories we have ships with built it mechanisms for certain maneuvers, while in others, we have the pilot being highly skilled in trained to perform such maneuvers. We can't use one series as an example to represent something in general. I mean, you make a sound case and I would like to wait for more input, but I honestly don't see why if you fly at FTL speeds (for example) you wouldn't have FTL reactions if you are the one piloting the ship and thus you are the responsible for the movement of that ship.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, for space travel at the very least, that is not the case, mathematically speaking:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Reactions_During_Space_Travel

 

[Man_from_Shadow]

Depends if there is indication they are going at full speed or not. If they are in space (not an asteroid belt or anything) and someone tries to catch them and they just fly away trying to escape and running for their lives, if something random appears and they manage to dodge it is a feat.

But if they enter an asteroid belt, then it shouldn't scale since there is no proof they were at full speed.

 

[Sera_EX]

I am positive that only applies to real life. In fiction, we have to consider other possibilities and not ignore them entirely. I mean, if we did, then FTL and most certainly MFTL travel shouldn't be considered whatsoever.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, for space travel at the very least, that is not the case, mathematically speaking:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Reactions_During_Space_Travel

False. It truly depends on the circumstances and how they drive. Claiming that they were driving in space and it does doesn't scale is an absolute claim that ignores any other possibility. Various fictions show the driver going though lightyears while perfectly aware of where he's going, consciously driving and even making turns.

You really cannot pilot a car, or a Mecha, or manually pilot a MFTL+ ship (Not Warp-Drive) without having reactions that are somewhat comparable. If the crew piloting Gurren Lagann didn't have MFTL+ Reactions, they'd never be able to wield such an enormous and fast Mech.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There is a reason why Airplane Flights are incredibly monitorized, and that pilots have entire teams guiding their already fixed route and giving assistance all the time. Because if there were to be any kind of flight accident the pilot wouldn't be capable of reacting in time, as the plane would be traveling at 900KMH.

So if in-fiction a character has a Mach 10 Manually-Driven Spaceship, and he has a Dogfight with other such ships, and manages to dodge incoming fire, missiles and ships by meters or centimeters, that would scale.

 

[Sera_EX]

I agree with Matt. In terms of fictitious works, various things apply. We cannot hold onto science when regarding certain cases. Even if we decide "Hey, this is true, a pilot can't have the same reaction speed as the speed of the ship or whatever they are piloting" that would only apply to a portion of our speed tiers. It will not apply to FTL and above because they are outside our current realm of science, if not outside our realm possibility entirely.

 

[Gemmysaur]

So...

Ships going in straight lines with some turns here and there don't scale reflexes to flight speed.

Ships actively dogfighting or twisting and turning in an asteroid belt would be debatable as it would put into question, are they really flying at really high speeds like they're just flying in a straight line or are they slowing down instead to a manageable point?

Ships that narrowly dodge an object at relatively close proximity or the driver noting the objects he passes as he flies would scale.

I think that's what I got from this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, considering the ridiculously vast distances between objects involved in outer space, the math proves that physical movement speed and reflexes are not required to be of anywhere near the same level as the flight speed, unless the character in question maneuvers through narrow meteor fields, and the like.

I know that you are good at arguing, but this is not really a matter of rhetorics, just about mathematics. As Neil DeGrasse Tyson has stated, everybody have the right to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. As such, LordXcano does in fact seem to be correct regarding this issue, as he has proof on his side, not opinions.

The bigger issue is, what exactly should we do about this? From a practical angle, we technically provide misinformation in an awful lot of MFTL+ character profiles, but it would likely be extremely impractical to start a massive revision project just to give them Unknown movement speeds.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You didn't respond to a single of our points, instead just repeating the original argument.

This is not about there being mathematical chances of you hitting something, but by going with what is shown in the fictional setting.

 

[Antvasima]

If what is shown in the fictional setting does not involve quick maneuvers in narrow distances, that have been calculated to require such reflexes, it cannot logically scale. I don't see how it is possible to refute that part. For example, changing course every half hour, or throwing a few punches every minute, does obviously not require MFTL+ reflexes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So I don't get why you need to pull the "I have science in my side, you only have opinions" if we are effectively agreeing on something.

We cannot ever apply an absolute rule, that is idiotic. Instead, we must be analytical and look at every case fairly.

Green Lantern manually driving a MFTL+ Car and making quick playful maneuvers like various fast spins obviously requires MFTL+ Reactions. But Han Solo using the Millennium Falcon's Warp Drive does not. No one is saying that every ship scales to pilot reaction.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am fine with case-by-case analysis. I am just saying that most of our profiles here just go with:

"Can fly in a straight line at MFTL+ speeds, and change direction along the way = Must have comparable combat speed and reflexes".

Being very right-is-right anal-retentive, it does not sit right with me that we provide misinformation in this regard. However, I also recognise that changing this approach may be impractical, so I am not sure what to do.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, any examples of such pages?

 

[Antvasima]

Not from the top of my head no, but from what I recall from monitoring thousands of pages for the last 2.5 years, most profiles scaled from space flight travel, have not concerned themselves with anything more than simply placing a uniform MFTL+ stamp, without any particular proof of connected or separate body movement speeds.

 

[Sera_EX]

Fair enough. I actually see pages like that all the time from browsing the wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but again, I am not sure if we are able to do anything about it. Like the striking strength naming procedure, it is a flaw built into our system from the beginning by people other than ourselves. I am very uneasy with it, however.

 

[Sera_EX]

Same. Our wiki is only getting bigger, lots of profiles added every day. Monitoring them all alone is such a task. Another problem is even if we know there's a flaw somewhere in our system, but we don't have the staff size to actually change thousands of pages in a quick enough time, we're stuck. Plus entire tier revisions, be they for Striking Strength, Lifting Strength, Speed or otherwise may be counterproductive if anything. I've had quite the number of people ask me in chat "Why is lifting strength even used?" It isn't easy to explain that other then replying "We are an indexing wiki and our vs. matches are primarily just for fun."

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we have technically performed a massive tier revision project in the past, but it took us two weeks, and we had to shut down the wiki for other editing at the time.

Also, it had more straightforward instructions. Revising the striking strength to the same standards as attack potency, would in fact be very helpful for the wiki, but not as self-evident for the staff regarding which section that corresponds most closely.

Strictly focusing on revising most pages scaled from flight speed, would not encompass nearly as many profiles, but would be even more confusing for staff members that do not know the specifics for each character that they are supposed to edit.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ok now I see the problem.

 

[Antvasima]

Yup. I am not very happy with the remaining structures that the previous management set in place.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

imho it kind of make sense that the pilots reaction scales cause i mean if you are driving you have to have similar reactions other wise you'll get blown out of the sky if you're not trained enough to react to similar speeds me thinks

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's a thing of scale. Obviously Jet Pilots don't need to be Supersonic, but they need to be incredibly trained humans. If your ship is MFTL+, and you use it for Space dogfights and all, obviously you are not an ordinary human to pilot it.

 

[Reppuzan]

Quick question. Final Fantasy IV's cast is currently Relativistic for piloting the Lunar Whale, which reaches the moon in seconds. Since there are no obstacles in the way, this would fall under this downgrade.

However, what if this feat is consistent with other showings? For example, while on the Moon, the party is able to fight Gilgamesh, who is shown to be Sub-Relativistic in most of his appearances and FTL in others.

Would they still require this downgrade?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. As they are capable of fighting Gilgamesh.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Would they still require this downgrade?

Imo, they would scale to FFgamesh's Sub-rel instead of having the relativistic feat.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I agree with the notion that flying and reaction speeds should be evaluated on a case by case basis; I apologize in advance for the Spike Spiegel one (as I'm responsible for it.) I thought there was a scene in where Spike goes full speed and dodges projectiles etc. There may be, but until I find it it can be removed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Spike does dodge bullets on some scenes. Don't remember which, but they do exist

 

[LordXcano]

I think Gemmy put it right.

To address Matt's case of Gurren Lagann, the difference there being that the MFTL+ reactions come from the fact Simon reacted to attacks while flying at what we can measure to be MFTL+ speeds.

Had they simply fought inside of Tengen Toppa they would not have MFTL+ reactions, as while both mechs are moving at MFTL+ speeds those speeds are still (relative to their size) Human level.

In AMM's case, if Spike was flying full speed he absolutely would scale (provided he dodged objects in the process).

But simply being aware of where you're going isn't really indicative of reactions or anything. I can be fully aware I'm heading to the Moon at Mach 1000 but that doesn't imply I am Massively Hypersonic+.

As for the comparisons to race car drivers and jet pilots, the key difference is that they are always moving at full speed (or close to it) and, in the case of race car drivers, have to actively avoid several other cars moving at comparable speeds and make turns that are very close to them.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we slightly revise our Speed page description for flight speed again (and if so, to what), or would that likely only cause trouble?

 

[LordXcano]

@Ant

"High flight speed logically requires similar reaction speed in order to manoeuvre when approaching different objects."

to

"High flight speed should only scale to reactions if it is stated they are moving at full speed while avoiding objects, or that the speed with which they avoid objects can be measured as comparably high"

I feel like past "or that the speed" I worded that as kind of a salad though

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that we could insert a link to your old space travel calculation as well.

What do the rest of you think of LordXcano's suggestion?

 

[Antoniofer]

Sound pretty good for me, at least in most of cases. In a personal note, I would consider that both speed are pretty similar when the acceleration is pretty high, but with that explication is good enough.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm not fond of it, tbh. Requires too much change, will get too much backlash, and will create a division in the users.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we would not start a revision project, just write it as a suggestion.