Why do people upscale from Infinite Zamasu?

[Nullflowerblush]

I promised.

Jiren is credited as "the mightiest foe in Dragon Ball history" numerous times throughout the airing of the Tournament of Power, and the Wiki currently uses this statement, alongside others, to scale a suppressed Jiren above Infinite Zamasu, making him Low 2-C but not giving him Immeasurable Lifting Strength which has affected the top-tiers of the Tournament of Power, including Goku, Vegeta, Kefla, Toppo, et cetera.

Why is this the case, though? Why is Zamasu Universe level+? Yes, he assimilated a universe into himself, but that would be a state of being.

Nothing ever suggests that merging with the universe had any affect on his power level. Even after his physical form was destroyed by Trunks and he was forced to retreat to an incorporeal one, he was still capable of utilizing his ki, proving that his ki is independent of the form he takes -- Immortality? That being said, this means that hijacking the universe and becoming a spacetime would only affect his form, whereas his power level would remain exactly the same. This is backed up by the fact that his attacks, even after merging with the universe, had the same effect on Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks as they did when he was still alive -- the three of them could momentarily defend themselves, even while weakened, and they were ultimately overpowered, but survived, like when he knocked the shit out of Goku and Vegeta in his grotesque form or when he folded them immediately after coming into existence; this all suggests that his power level remained unchanged. Hell, even Gowasu could defend against his attacks, albeit with a barrier, of course.

Along with that, inflating oneself or merging with something larger than oneself has never increased one's power by itself before. When Piccolo grew to the size of a small mountain against Goku in the original Dragon Ball, his power level remained the same; the only that changed was the force of his punches because his mass increased. And, in the Dragon Ball Super manga, when Moro merged with the entire planet Earth, his power remained unchanged; the only thing that happened was that he had a larger form to properly control the power he gained from Merus... there are not too many examples of this happening in Dragon Ball.

So once again, there is nothing backing up the idea that merging with the universe increased his power.

So, why is he rated as Low 2-C? He has no feats to back up such a rating; him tampering with time was a side-effect of his existence, meaning it would not count as an Attack Potency feat, nor would it affect his power level anyway. In fact, would that not fall under the nonviable examples of Stabilization Feats?

Tl;dr: Zamasu merging with the universe has nothing to do with his power, so his rating should be changed.

Zamasu having Low 2-C Durability for being a universe would be fine, but his Attack Potency should be changed or just not be scaled off of.
also, when do we change this to "fusion zamasu (super dragon ball heroes)"

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So here we go again.

At this rate, Zamasu will have a note or discussion rule against trying to revise him.

 

[Hasty12345]

I've made my stance on this pretty clear, I think the only difference between IZ and gross Zamasu is higher dimensional existence and immortality via abstract existence.

I agree there's no reason his AP should increase between the forms.

That being said, if he gets it due to a technicality in the wiki's standards regarding large size, then he should be low 2-C, both durability and AP.

 

[KLOL506]

Biggest reason is that Beerus viewed him as an absolute non-threat in the anime (Bear in Mind that Zamasu is literally the universe itself, similar to how Ego would be Planet level just by being a Planet alone), plus there's the whole Beerus + Champa fighting= Destruction of both Universe 6 and 7 and dividing that by 2 is real, effin' high-end Low 2-C.

Also don't we already have a separate Low 2-C Zamasu thread? Why are we bringing this up in this thread?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also don't we already have a separate Low 2-C Zamasu thread? Why are we bringing this up in this thread?

That one closed, so he made a new one with different arguments.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This spawned from that one, and that one was concluded.

 

[Orange]

Well.
First we need to look what Ki is.
Long story short: Ki is the latent power and life force of a martial artist [or anyone that is alive, ] it's an energy that resides in the centre of all beings, it's made from vigour, courage and right mindedness.
When Zamasu fused with the uuiverse, he became the universe, Essentially being it's host. And since ki flows into ones body and is being capeable of getting drawn out, zamasu is using his own ki [Universe's energy even, since his body is the universe]. As we see his faces shoot out multiple red ki blasts. It can't be from somewhere else besides his body. Also will is technically a component of ki, thus his will [and mind], meaning his own ki is fusing with the universe, using it as a body and drawing energy from it.
It's like fusing withba star and using all of its energy for offence purposes

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Similar to how Ego would be Planet level just by being a Planet alone

This actually isn’t how that works

 

[Nullflowerblush]

similar to how Ego would be Planet level just by being a Planet alone

That involves kinetic, potential, and gravitational binding energy.
None of that is applicable to fourth-dimensional constructs.

And since ki flows into ones body and is being capeable of getting drawn out, zamasu is using his own ki

Correct. All you needed to say.

Universe's energy even

It's like fusing withba star and using all of its energy for offence purposes

report to my first point above

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I think that getting tiers via being something is really weird, like one time I tried to upgrade Goku to class Y lifting strength because he stopped planet moro's attacks, but I was told that moro only scales to that as the full planet and not his physical stats, so I actually support this CRT, it doesn't make sense why the others scale to zamasu who got a tier via being something but at the same time not scale them to LS or moro or zamasu because hear this, (bold) they got the tier via being something. (bold)

 

[KLOL506]

I think that getting tiers via being something is really weird, like one time I tried to upgrade Goku to class Y lifting strength because he stopped planet moro's attacks, but I was told that moro only scales to that as the full planet and not his physical stats, so I actually support this CRT, it doesn't make sense why the others scale to zamasu who got a tier via being something but at the same time not scale them to LS or moro or zamasu because hear this, (bold) they got the tier via being something. (bold)

Goku didn't stop the entire planet tho, just a small portion of Moro wrestling with him. There was no evidence that Moro was using the full planet's mass in his arms to hold off against Goku.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Goku didn't stop the entire planet tho, just a small portion of Moro wrestling with him. There was no evidence that Moro was using the full planet's mass in his arms to hold off against Goku.

Yet Goku is physically stronger than moro for a fact, but we don't scale Goku to class Y, so why do we scale suppressed Jiren above zamasu who's tier is achieved through the exact same means as moro? Clearly in dragon ball, merging with an object doesn't make you stronger, or if you choose to still accept Zamasu as low 2-C then everyone's scaling to immeasurable lifting strength.

 

[Orange]

That involves kinetic, potential, and gravitational binding energy.
None of that is applicable to fourth-dimensional constructs.

Correct. All you needed to say.


report to my first point above

I just want my post to sound smart-
Man-
You know what, I disagree with this thread, 3-C zamasu because all feats are an outlier.
No but seriously, is my point good enough or you still have some questions?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Your argument was, "Zamasu merged with the universe, so he should be able to utilize a universal amount of energy".

That would only cover 3-A.

 

[Orange]

Your argument was, "Zamasu merged with the universe, so he should be able to utilize a universal amount of energy".

That would only cover 3-A.

Nope, if he only fused with the matter aspect. But he fused with the space time

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Conventional energy measurements are not applicable to higher dimensional tiering.

 

[Orange]

His body is space time, his energy flow through his body, he can use his ki [which is universe ski, aka the space time's energy]. Plus his own will/Mind fused with the universe which is an aspect of ki itself.
It's like using the total energy of the sun, but instead of a sun you have A space time

 

[AKM sama]

That involves kinetic, potential, and gravitational binding energy.
None of that is applicable to fourth-dimensional constructs.

None of that is applicable because energy cannot be calculated after tier 3. But we still know it's infinite times higher. This is just the standard practice, if someone becomes the universe, they are Low 2-C. If someone becomes the multiverse, they are 2-B, depending on the size. If you accept that Zamasu has become the universe's space time, then it's impossible to do that with 3-A energy because the gap in power required to do so is infinite according to the standards.

That being said, this means that hijacking the universe and becoming a spacetime would only affect his form, whereas his power level would remain exactly the same

Isn't it stated on Toei's website that Zamasu's power/will went out of control. That would explain the increase in power.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Nothing is wrong, only Zamasu's will overflows that allowed him to achieve being a literary 4D being, now Jiren and Goku climb to release energy infinitely greater than Zamas or be linked equal to Bill who sees Zamas as a non-threat

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Isn't it stated on Toei's website that Zamasu's power/will went out of control. That would explain the increase in power.

How would it explain it exactly?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

it's impossible to do that with 3-A energy because the gap in power required to do so is infinite according to the standards

High 3-A??

But really, none of this is proving that Zamasu's ki experienced an infinite growth in size. The energy of the universe could be infinite, but he is not using the energy of the universe. He is using his own ki energy, and we know it is his energy, because it looks the exact same as the energy torrent that blasted into the sky when he initially came back.

Oh yeah, the universe does not have ki, and most of, if not all living creatures were killed off in the past, so there is no ki for him to siphon off of. And, if he did, surely the main cast would have been affected, so that point is moot.

But, hypothetically speaking, if Zamasu's power really did grow to a High 3-A or even Low 2-C level, would that not apply to the main cast of the saga, or is that just more PIS?

 

[Nierre]

ban this topic.

 

[AKM sama]

How would it explain it exactly?

Someone's power going out of control is generally seen as an unquantifiable increase.

But really, none of this is proving that Zamasu's ki experienced an infinite growth in size. The energy of the universe could be infinite, but he is not using the energy of the universe. He is using his own ki energy, and we know it is his energy, because it looks the exact same as the energy torrent that blasted into the sky when he initially came back.

This just means his energy is Low 2-C, because again, this is one of the restrictions of our dimensional tiering. A 2-D square drawn on a screen cannot become one with a 3-D cube box in real life. For doing that, it needs to cross the gap in power which is infinite.

But, hypothetically speaking, if Zamasu's power really did grow to a High 3-A or even Low 2-C level, would that not apply to the main cast of the saga, or is that just more PIS?

The case being able to block his attack is already seen as PIS.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Ugh, this is so tantalizing; it makes me feel like one of them.

So, what you are saying is Zamasu's form and power level literally cannot be on different tiers?

Okay, well, what about the Lifting Strength? What is up with that?

 

[AKM sama]

So, what you are saying is Zamasu's form and power level literally cannot be on different tiers?

Not in this particular case. If he had become something smaller like a galaxy or something, then it would have been different tiers.

Okay, well, what about the Lifting Strength? What is up with that?

I guess you can say that he may not be able to lift his own weight, I am neutral on that aspect. Because just being something doesn't mean you can lift it too.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I guess you can say that he may not be able to lift his own weight, I am neutral on that aspect. Because just being something doesn't mean you can lift it too.

How do we know whether he can lift his own weight or not, and we do we assume he can when we gave him the tier? And what about the dudes who scale to his lifting strength? Do they have what it takes to lift him if they scale far higher?

 

[KLOL506]

How do we know whether he can lift his own weight or not, and we do we assume he can when we gave him the tier?

Just because you're a certain tier doesn't mean you can lift stuff at that level. Just ask Pre-Crisis Supes, he's Tier 2 but he doesn't have LS feats on that level.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Well, unlike a planet that is held down by the Sun's gravitational pull, thus eliminating the need for a planet-person to actually lift their weight up, an entire universe does not have that kind of luxury, and he is actively holding the whole thing together, so he would scale, no?

And, if that is the case, everyone who scales above him would also experience an upgrade in Lifting Strength.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Just because you're a certain tier doesn't mean you can lift stuff at that level. Just ask Pre-Crisis Supes, he's Tier 2 but he doesn't have LS feats on that level.

I am talking about Zamasu's immeasurable lifting strength. He has that rating already.

Well, unlike a planet that is held down by the Sun's gravitational pull, thus eliminating the need for a planet-person to actually lift their weight up, an entire universe does not have that kind of luxury, and he is actively holding the whole thing together, so he would scale, no?

And, if that is the case, everyone who scales above him would also experience an upgrade in Lifting Strength.

I agree.

 

[AKM sama]

Must be my memory, but I don't remember where it was decided to rate Zamasu's lifting strength at that level. I would have to search for it. If somebody finds it, let me know.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If somebody finds it, let me know.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/minor-infinite-zamasu-addition.114702

 

[AKM sama]

Seems like people just agreed because "he is a spacetime continuum". I am not sure why we would assume his lifting strength like that unless we are saying he can lift himself? But like, how?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Seems like people just agreed because "he is a spacetime continuum". I am not sure why we would assume his lifting strength like that unless we are saying he can lift himself? But like, how?

It's the same idea as why moro is class Y lifting strength but for some reason his physical stats don't scale to it. Though flower man did give a reason why he should scale to it.

 

[Orange]

If he can't Support his own weight, wouldn't he just collapse on himself?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

As I always had problems with people scaling to IZ or above him, I agree. That is also fits with the scaling much better than before

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If he can't Support his own weight, wouldn't he just collapse on himself?

Collapse to what though? If he's indeed the universe he is all of the universe so he got nothing to collapse into

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Following.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Nothing ever suggests that merging with the universe had any affect on his power level

This is such an ignorant statement.

If a character has a greater feat of strength in an entirely different form, why do we have to prove their new form is stronger? That’s a blatant reverse burden of proof.

Rage Trunks was able to match fused Zamasu, even without the Spirit Bomb, but gets completely overwhelmed by Infinite Zamasu despite having help from Goku and Vegeta.

 

[KLOL506]

I am talking about Zamasu's immeasurable lifting strength. He has that rating already.

Pretty sure that was an "Inapplicable" rating AFAIK. Maybe I'm confusing Lucy with Zamasu I guess.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I actually heard something about him "Engulfing the universe" which by definition would mean he is eating the universe. Pretty sure eating a spacetime continuum would make you Tier 2. It was already mentioned that "Becoming the universe" was stated when he only started to expand and appearing in other timelines came after he pretty much fully merged. And he's like too strong to contain himself to a single timeline fully, so he's also above baseline.

Being a sentient planet or star doesn't always make to planet or star level since there are other factors such as lack of mobility and having weak points at the core that can be penetrated with Tier 6 stuff. But sentient universes and multiverses don't have that. Can't really divide infinity by a finite number to get another finite number. Just like it doesn't matter if it takes one punch or 10^30 punches to destroy a single timeline; if you can destroy a space-time continuum through sheer physical strikes and not through space-time hax that causes chain reactions, you are Tier 2 period. There really is no such thing as baseline Low 2-C to my knowledge when it comes to destroying timelines. But if there was a thing, I would honestly considering being a sentient Low 2-C structure as the closest thing to baseline Low 2-C.

As for lifting strength, I forgot the exact arguments. But I believe it's because he's still really huge on a 4-D scale, with limited 5-D existence. And he's also "Engulfing the universe" implying he's fitting it inside him and isn't collapsing himself. Though, Immeasurable LS would be outlierish for everyone except Zamasu. But he's an example where LS comes from his dimensional existence rather than his Ki. While his AP is still Ki that can be sensed.