Why are we using the Marvel Handbooks to powerscale?

[LoudCloud]

Aren't the powergrids ridiculed for their inconsistency and lowballing? (eg. subsonic Spiderman, class 100 lifting strength Iron man, etc.).

I know we only use it to powerscale, not measure their stats, but surely we shouldn't use something so unreliable to powerscale either?

If DC claimed both Superman and Flash were MHS+, would we see that as proof of them powerscaling or just shrug it all off as silly?

 

[Cropfist]

I agree.

 

[Antvasima]

Please read the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page.

The inherent problem with Marvel and DC is that the hundreds of writers involved over several decades make power-scaling, and power-levels, ridiculously inconsistent. The Hulk, for example, has gone from tier 9-B to High 3-A from story to story.

Hence, in lack of better options we are trying to go by the official character ratings in comparison to each other instead.

Is this a perfect approach? No far from it, but the alternative would eventually likely end up with Captain America scaled to the Living Tribunal, so we had to use something, and this was the least bad option.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

That. Or unless we go the "put all Marvel characters to Unknown" route. Does anybody want that or what?

 

[Dekoshu]

The rules for Marvel and DC aren't here out of spite, but out of rationality, efficiency, and regulation. And it's literally ridiculous and inconsistent, not like the others you see here. No way should Captain America have even a slight chance against the Living Tribunal.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

As what Dekoshu said on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

It was just a likely exaggerated matter of speech, but the point is that Marvel has made a consistent habit of having vastly more powerful characters lose to ridiculously weaker opponents. For example, Dormammu has beaten Multi-Eternity, who is almost equal to the Living Tribunal, but has also been severely damaged by Cyclops or Frankenstein's Monster in other stories.

 

[Dekoshu]

And every time I read these examples, they baffle me considerably.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Well, at least in terms of speed and power, Marvel always win over DC both on upgrade and downgrade...

 

[Dekoshu]

Marvel consistently winning over DC?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Most Likely yes, especially the downgrade part...

 

[LoudCloud]

Still some problems with that:

1. Who do we scale it to then? If character A has a supersonic feat and character B has a relativistic feat and both are at the same rating, then who do we scale characters of that rating to?

2. Isn't the speed rating for the powergrid travel and not combat/reaction speed? And the strength rating for lifting strength and not AP?

3. Is it really fair to do this to Marvel while other inconsistent verses like DC just get their best feats counted instead?

4. The durability power grid is a clusterf*ck, with "regenerative" being rated as lower than "bulletproof". It seems more to do with the type of durabilty they have than an actual rating. Same for energy projection, which has more to do with the range and variety of the projection, rather than it's might.

 

[Antvasima]

1) Usually the higher feats, if they are not regarded as outliers.

2) I think that the two terms are used synonymously in Marvel's internal handbooks, but since very few of the characters are able to travel over considerable distsnces anywhere near as swiftly as they can fight, we primarily use their calculations as combat speed.

3) It is a matter of convenience, since othervise an awful lot of characters would end up with either unknown ratings, or far too low ones, sonce explicit feats are few and far between. DC is much harder to scale, but we can get rough approximations for characters thst are consistently comparable to Superman or Batman.

4) For that reason, we usually rate their durabilities from their strength levels, except in cases when it is clearly much higher, such as for Ultron and Juggernaut.

 

[LoudCloud]

Well in that case:

1. Carol Denvers and Iron Man should have Quicksilver's speed (FTL+). I noticed Iron Man is currently scaled to Mr. Fantastic but the Power Grid points out that's Tony without his suit.

2. Mr. Fantastic's speed should be scaled to Wolverine and Hawkeye anyway.

3. Which should also be scaled to Captain America due to the same speed rating.

4. Quicksilver's AP should scale to Spiderman instead of Captain America.

5. X-23's AP should be street-level due to scaling with Hawkeye.

 

[LoudCloud]

bump

 

[The_great_ZZ]

@LoudCloud

You know this all started from a Deadpool upgrade thread that Perp made here on the basis of Power Crunch link here and that caused Ant to make a Marvel Speed thread here.

 

[Antvasima]

1) No, we are scaling them from their movement speeds, not their flight speeds. The newest handbooks make no distinction between the two terms, whereas the Master edition (and Marvel's stated official editorial policy) does.

2) No. He was placed at "Normal" speed in the Master edition, whereas Hawkeye and Wolverine were placed at "Athlete" speed.

3) Captain America has a "Peak Human" speed rating.

4) No. The newest handbooks are very unspecific, as they go from just above Peak Human strength to Class 25 for their 4th tier. The older handbooks clarified that Quicksilver is at "1000 pounds" in strength.

5) I do not remember the specifics in this case, but her claws can probably be assumed to have similar attack potency to Wolverine, even though punches from her are comparatively weak.

Anyway, I am far too busy monitoring this site to have the time for extensive discussions such as this, so I would appreciate if you would immediately and permently drop this.

 

[Justadude1]

I mean look at Sandman Is he really small country level....The biggest feat he ever had is growing and absorbing a beach....(Equal to Iron Man) Really?

 

[Antvasima]

According to the handbooks, apparently yes, and he has fought both the Thing and the Hulk in the past.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

He absorbed the Sahara Desert in the past during the fight with Spider-Man in Ends of the Earth IIRC. It might depend how much Sand is at his disposal.

 

[LoudCloud]

1) No, we are scaling them from their movement speeds, not their flight speeds. The newest handbooks make no distinction between the two terms, whereas the Master edition (and Marvel's stated official editorial policy) does.
2) No. He was placed at "Normal" speed in the Master edition, whereas Hawkeye and Wolverine were placed at "Athlete" speed.

3) Captain America has a "Peak Human" speed rating.

4) No. The newest handbooks are very unspecific, as they go from just above Peak Human strength to Class 25 for their 4th tier. The older handbooks clarified that Quicksilver is at "1000 pounds" in strength.

5) I do not remember the specifics in this case, but her claws can probably be assumed to have similar attack potency to Wolverine, even though punches from her are comparatively weak.

Anyway, I am far too busy monitoring this site to have the time for extensive discussions such as this, so I would appreciate if you would immediately and permently drop this.

So what Power Grid are we using? The ones I looked at were on the Marvel Wiki.

And isn't this kind of your job? To have discussions about this stuff?

 

[Antvasima]

Up to a point, yes, but most of my time is spent monitoring that none of the edits in the wiki are vandalism or blatant unwarranted statistics boosting. I do not have much time and energy for discussions.

Anyway, we tend to use a combination of all available handbook statistics to give us as complete a picture as possible. Quicksilver is an uncertain case, however, as his Deluxe Edition handbook statistics, his Master Editio handbook statistics, and his current handbook statistics are contradictory to each other.

However, I interpreted them as that his speed has been vastly upgraded over the years, as this coincides with what has been shown and stated within the comics, but that his strength level seems more uncertain.

 

[LoudCloud]

Alright, so Iron Man has "normal" combat speed according to the Handbooks ey? Weird. Does the All New, All Different power grid count?

 

[Antvasima]

The new power grid simply states the greatest value of either flight speed or movement speed, which are usually very different for Marvel characters.

 

[LoudCloud]

The new power grid simply states the greatest value of either flight speed or movement speed, which are usually very different for Marvel characters.

Alright. I'll look into it.