Why are Mavel and DC heralds locked at 4-B? An open letter to the staff of Versus Battles Wiki

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, FanofRPGs basically took a lot of words out of my mouth, but explained it in much better detail than I could. It doesn't quite answer the Marvel examples, which I also do not know quite as much reasoning. I know I hate using Dragon Ball comparisons for Comicbook characters since comparing their scaling chains in their original forms are the grand champion of false equivalencies. But there is a way to reformat the concept to give better understanding.

In Superman's case, his story is basically if Krillin or Yamcha was the main protagonist of Dragon Ball instead of Goku and every fight scene he enters consists of the main villains like Frieza, Cell, or Buu outright toying with him and in the end; the only reason he wins is either because the villain purposely hands the fight to them out of pity by suppressing their defenses; or they get rescued by the Gokus and Vegetas supporting characters.

That's basically the gist, for each and every Superman story where he allegedly did a Universal feat, we end of with a conclusion that he either didn't physically do the feat, it was more so a mental or illusion feat where the outside help supporting character far above Superman was the one who actually did the feat, he fought avatars of universal/multiversal entities not their true selves, other characters purposely held back against Superman, there's just one hyperbolic statement that is no where near universal in context, or there is a chain reaction of sorts.

Though, I did hear and was aware that there are a few characters who should be more universal, but said characters should be considered far above Superman and other Justice League members ect.

 

[Deagonx]

Feats are not power-scaling. Power-scaling is how you get a character higher than their direct feats by comparing them to other characters.

I think beginning your post with a relatively unimportant semantic nitpick probably wasn't ideal.

In Hulk vs Broly, Death Battle (Which has a research team that's probably much smaller than our list of knowledgeable Marvel members, not to mention they had limited time to work with and were only talking about a single character) found at least universal feats that are at least universal (The third one was only in a comic panel, by the way, and not directly mentioned). From a SINGLE DEATH BATTLE EPISODE

Do you care to share these feats so they could be discussed here?

There is no way that TWO feats on a certain level are the most consistent thing in a 26 year comic run, not even including Post-Flashpoint.

I mean, your incredulity isn't an argument. You're just as capable of making a CRT as anyone else and providing more consistent feats, right?

honestly don't know enough about comics to be an expert on the topic, which is a big reason why this is a Q&A thread and not a content revision thread. But even from the outside looking in, 4-B heralds really feels questionable at best, which is something I can't really say with any other verse off the top of my head.

Surely you see the problem with this right? How is anyone supposed to respond to this? "I don't have a solid grasp of the subject matter, but it feels fishy to me. Discuss"

Shaking the Universe is 4-A tho.

Like, inherently? I think a feat as vague as "shaking" mostly empty space shouldn't necessarily indicate the destruction of solar systems unless that person has otherwise shown that they can destroy solar systems, depending on what the outcome of this shaking is.

 

[The_Smashor]

I mean, your incredulity isn't an argument. You're just as capable of making a CRT as anyone else and providing more consistent feats, right?

If I could make a CRT do you really think I'd have made this instead?

 

[Livinmeme]

nop shaking the universe is 4-A

 

[Deagonx]

If I could make a CRT do you really think I'd have made this instead?

Anyone can make a CRT, it's just a matter of doing the research.

 

[The_Smashor]

Anyone can make a CRT, it's just a matter of doing the research.

Perhaps, but it's a much better idea to be knowledgeable in the verse.

 

[Deagonx]

Perhaps, but it's a much better idea to be knowledgeable in the verse.

Doing research is how one becomes knowledgeable in the verse.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

What Fanon and Dragon wrote are incredible, and they worded it better than I ever could. My kudos to them. Also, I'd like to comment that I must congratulate everyone involved. This is much more civil and mature than I expected, given how similar threads went by in previous times.

I feel Smashor's concerns, and from my experiences and knowledge, I do agree that basing the scaling in few feats is over the course of dozens of years of comics is a bit weird. However, that being said, most things that are used in the profiles are the way they are due to the collective effort of a lot of people, research and thought. I am certain there are more feats, that there are ways to increase the quality of the scaling, or the descriptions of profiles. However, the how is much harder, since it requires a lot of discussing, of researching and thinking, and what was built here is fruit of several other hundreds of threads discussing similar matter.

As a side note, I agree with Fanon's idea of perhaps upgrading Marvel characters or at least being more open to the idea. I read few comics to be of any use to that, but it is true that usually I see much more blatant feats within Marvel than in DC. Of course, just in a general way, but there's that.

 

[Newendigo]

Fanon definetly brought a good point about powerful characters perhaps holding back against Superman, is such a no brainer that I can't believe I didn't thought of it lmao.

 

[The_Smashor]

Fanon definetly brought a good point about powerful characters perhaps holding back against Superman, is such a no brainer that I can't believe I didn't thought of it lmao.

Why would an insane villain bent on destroying/taking over reality hold back against Superman? Holding back is more of a hero thing so you don't accidentally hurt people.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some villains aren't actually evil; like Mr Mxy. He's not really an evil villain but just an imp who takes pleasure in messing with people. There's also people like Ares whom would be considered and evil villain, but he has his reasons for not wanting to kill Wonder Woman. But as for the Joker, he is commonly believed to be one of the evilest characters ever created, but even he refuses to kill Batman even if he has perfect opportunities. And it has something to do with him losing his purpose without a Batman or that Gothan city would be boring without him. Emperor Joker doesn't stop him from thinking differently about those. It's also no secret that a lot of villains take great delight in torturing their foes before they kill them. Or even keep them alive with the motive for causing torture.

In Lex Luthor's case with the Zone Child, actually it was due to a weakness. There was a law saying he will lose all his god powers if he breaks his contract of trying to harm anyone. Which the first thing he did was try to kill Superman, which instantly made him lose his 3-A key right there.

 

[The_Smashor]

Emperor Joker's "no killing" thing only really applies to Batman. And I was more referring to people like Darkseid there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Darkseid is also kind of like Ares in a sense, and also has a habit of wanting to torture his foes before he kills them.

 

[The_Smashor]

why is every strong comic book villain a sadistic bastard?

Also, I've heard multiple times that Post-Crisis Superman released subconscious limiters over time or something. Is this an actual thing?

 

[Confluctor]

Also, I've heard multiple times that Post-Crisis Superman released subconscious limiters over time or something. Is this an actual thing?

Yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

There are 4-5 major eras that we plan on dividing Post-Crisis Superman.

Post-Crisis

Post-Eradicator

Maybe Post-Zero Hour

Post-Mongul Training

Post-Infinite Crisis

 

[The_Smashor]

Well, that might explain a few inconsistencies.

 

[Newendigo]

Is there something more you want to ask?

I think many people have already answered the main OP.

 

[The_Smashor]

Would all the heralds that obviously scale to each other combined have enough universal (or at least higher than solar system) feats for it to not be inconsistent? IIRC a good chunk of the DC universal feats are from the Lantern Corps.

 

[Firestorm808]

We are planning on breaking up the eras of post crisis, New 52, and Rebirth, so we may find the statistics for higher tiers. It will take some time, though

 

[Scottycj256]

I agree with the fact that Marvel and DC are in dire need of upgrades and revisions, especially Superman being 3-A/Low 2-C, and hell even Darkseid's true form being the same tier as Perpetua due to how it exists in a platonic archetypal world.


But I also say that it would require about the same amount if not more effort than what all the people here used to actually get a solid scaling of the characters in both DC and Marvel. You have to have courtesy for the people here who put in the work for all that research they used to get to 4-B for most of the heralds.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

and hell even Darkseid's true form being the same tier as Perpetua due to how it exists in a platonic archetypal world.

I'm assuming you're thinking Darkseid should be 1-A because of platonic concepts, but um, platonic concepts don't grant you any tier anymore

 

[Scottycj256]

Why doesn't it?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

IIRC, it was because of the idea that platonic concepts transcend space and time, and transcending space and time won't grant you 1-A since 2018, making it already outdated. So platonic concepts won't get you a tier anymore

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I agree with the fact that Marvel and DC are in dire need of upgrades and revisions, especially Superman being 3-A/Low 2-C, and hell even Darkseid's true form being the same tier as Perpetua due to how it exists in a platonic archetypal world.

Most versions of superman isn`t universal. Most of superman ''universal feats'' is out of context or required outside amp

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Low 2-C Superman has been rejected hundreds of times and there's a rule in the works against trying to upgrade him again fyi.

 

[The_Smashor]

Most versions of superman isn`t universal. Most of superman ''universal feats'' is out of context or required outside amp

Couldn't he reasonably get it through scaling to other Heralds, though?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Couldn't he reasonably get it through scaling to other Heralds, though?

Thats marvel not dc

 

[The_Smashor]

Herald Tier is an umbrella term for the Thor/Superman level in versus debating IIRC, even if it's technically only accurate to Marvel.

 

[Planck69]

Why doesn't it?

Platonic Concepts aren't inherently 1-A anymore. In fact, the Conceptual Manipulation page is pending a revision to reflect that.

 

[The_Smashor]

But yeah, even if Superman's direct universal feats aren't legit, Hal apparently does have legit universal feats.

 

[Confluctor]

Not in Post Crisis continuity.

 

[The_Smashor]

Wasn't there a time a bunch of Green Lanterns and Darkseid held back a universal explosion or something like that? Given how big DC's universe is that'd probably be 3-A.

 

[Confluctor]

Where?

 

[The_Smashor]

They held back Impirix's self-destruction, though oddly this is the only tier 3 feat I can find on DC respect threads.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Well, tbf, Darkseid was involved in that.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah, but if Darksied could have just done it alone the Green Lanterns wouldn't have needed to be there.

 

[Stefano4444]

There is Captain Atom who could make a Big Bang and create a new universe, but who know if there is any DC Herald who scale to an Unrestricted CA.

 

[Confluctor]

No herald scales to unrestricted Cap.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was already explained above that multiple Green Lanterns working together do not add together linearly; 2 more more Green Lanterns working together tend to be a lot more than twice the power of a single Green Lantern. There was a Galaxy level feat that required 12 Green Lanterns working together to perform, and most universal feats required hundreds of them and possibly even the entire corporation. And like Superman, a single Green Lantern regularly needs to dump all their energy just to perform feats ranging from planetary to stellar.