Umineko Revision 3: The New Tiering System

[Catzlaflame]

When Catz Cries — Answer Arcs: Episode 11/11/24.

A handful of my concerns regarding potential lore-based contradictions were already addressed on discord a few months ago, so no need to go down that rabbit-hole .

The 1-A is very self-evident. I agree.

Although, personally, I do think the game-master role warranting a higher layer is a bit sus — that is — the game-master transcending the meta beings of their domain.

It says the GM is on a “higher plane of existence” because they spin the tale (tale as in the gameboard), but the meta beings would be exclusive to that since they’re not a part of the gameboard.

I think the reason why the GM is described as being on a higher plane is because they actually write the game as opposed to the other meta beings who don’t write the tale but still transcend it.

I’m particularly inclined to think that cus we see GMs “fighting” against non-GMs, and when Battler became the GM, he said he would “invite” Erica to game 6, which leads me to consider the GM role as something akin to an event-host, and the meta-beings, the party go’ers — not that the GM is “writing” the other meta-beings.

It’s been a while since I’ve read this series though, so feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.

I’ll comment on the High-1A stuff another time since the thread probably won’t pass w/o @Ultima_Reality anyway.

 

[Wankbreaker]

When Catz Cries — Answer Arcs: Episode 11/11/24.

A handful of my concerns regarding potential lore-based contradictions were already addressed on discord a few months ago, so no need to go down that rabbit-hole .

The 1-A is very self-evident. I agree.

Although, personally, I do think the game-master role warranting a higher layer is a bit sus — that is — the game-master transcending the meta beings of their domain.

It says the GM is on a “higher plane of existence” because they spin the tale (tale as in the gameboard), but the meta beings would be exclusive to that since they’re not a part of the gameboard.

I think the reason why the GM is described as being on a higher plane is because they actually write the game as opposed to the other meta beings who don’t write the tale but still transcend it.

I’m particularly inclined to think that cus we see GMs “fighting” against non-GMs, and when Battler became the GM, he said he would “invite” Erica to game 6, which leads me to consider the GM role as something akin to an event-host, and the meta-beings, the party go’ers — not that the GM is “writing” the other meta-beings.

It’s been a while since I’ve read this series though, so feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.

I’ll comment on the High-1A stuff another time since the thread probably won’t pass w/o @Ultima_Reality anyway.

Meta beings can themselves be part of a higher gameboard.

 

[Ovy7]

I don't think the Erika example works that well considering she's a piece of Bernkastel, and not of Beato/Battler. She's not exactly part of their story, if you catch my drift.

On the other way, the GM has full authority over the characters that are part of their Catbox. We see this most explicitly in the epilogue of Last Note, where they talk about the characters that Beato created for her Catbox, but discarded later (like Virgilius).

 

[Accelerate420]

When Catz Cries — Answer Arcs: Episode 11/11/24.

If you're saying "are the Game Master's transcendental to the visitors of the Game Board just because their existence is considered higher?" that's kind of a 'yes' and a 'no' question. In Confessions we see that the Game Master can view the totality of their Game Board/Cat Box even outside it, which show cases that they are indeed able to reach a 'higher layer of existence than all others' once in that position. If you're asking whether the meta beings in the gameboard are exclusive to that, well, that kinda depends on what you mean by exclusive? It's a layer they can't reach under normal circumstances within the Territory, but a Voyager could simply leave the Territory anyways and go beyond it. Any beings that are actually a part of the story are naturally under influence, Vergilius as an example was outright discarded as a character concept in Last Note as mentioned earlier.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

When Catz Cries — Answer Arcs: Episode 11/11/24.

A handful of my concerns regarding potential lore-based contradictions were already addressed on discord a few months ago, so no need to go down that rabbit-hole .

The 1-A is very self-evident. I agree.

Although, personally, I do think the game-master role warranting a higher layer is a bit sus — that is — the game-master transcending the meta beings of their domain.

It says the GM is on a “higher plane of existence” because they spin the tale (tale as in the gameboard), but the meta beings would be exclusive to that since they’re not a part of the gameboard.

I think the reason why the GM is described as being on a higher plane is because they actually write the game as opposed to the other meta beings who don’t write the tale but still transcend it.

I’m particularly inclined to think that cus we see GMs “fighting” against non-GMs, and when Battler became the GM, he said he would “invite” Erica to game 6, which leads me to consider the GM role as something akin to an event-host, and the meta-beings, the party go’ers — not that the GM is “writing” the other meta-beings.

It’s been a while since I’ve read this series though, so feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.

Erika is not the best example to bring... since she is someone outside of Beatrice's territory and, even more, she's a piece of Bernkastel. She even lives with her, as shown in the end of Episode 8.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @DarkGrath @Everything12 @Elizhaa

Your help would still be very appreciated here.

 

[Wankbreaker]

@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @DarkGrath @Everything12 @Elizhaa

Your help would still be very appreciated here.

Elizhaa already commented and approved of 1-A and High 1-A, and High 1-A+ for featherine

 

[Ovy7]

We'll need more staff votes for Tier 1 stuff.

 

[Wankbreaker]

We'll need more staff votes for Tier 1 stuff.

Im aware, just mentioning that one of the people ant pinged already came

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Bump

I'd like to mention this as more supporting proof for Witches' R>F

 

[Ovy7]

Could have just posted the quote too:

Satoko is called a “witch” in SOTSU. The word “witch” has many different connotations, but what do you think makes a character a “witch”? Also, what kind of influence do the “witch” characters in your work exert over the story and the other characters? Is that influence a positive or a negative?

“Witch” differs in its meaning from work to work, but in most cases, I think it indicates a person who doesn't occupy an individual's position but is instead a god-like figure that can see the world and the situation from above.

Writing stories is something like arranging the pieces on a large game board. They all move individually and birth stories by crashing into each other. I think of myself as someone who writes down what happens when the pieces collide. As a result, there are times when I find myself seeking the opinions and feelings of the “players” who can look down at the game board and at the game's situation with a birds-eye view. They do not have the opinions of a pawn, and they can move pawns around. I get the feeling that I've been assigning the name of “witch” to characters who occupy that kind of position.

In the same way a player's hand moves the pieces, the witch moves the other characters in a way that makes the story mysterious. In other words, the witches may be the tricksters of the Ryukishi07 world. Alternatively, they might be kaleidoscopes, which have a beautiful pattern that appears at random. There is no distinguishing good or evil in those individual shapes; they are neither a positive nor a negative. The witch simply turns the wheel out of a desire to see a beautiful moving pattern. Basically, the influence of a witch can perhaps be likened to “the whims of a god.”

Going forward, if I spot an interesting theme, I'd like a witch to observe it from above and turn it into the “seed” of a new story.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Bump

Ultima said he'll check the threads this weekend. Hope he sees this one too.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Uh what's the reasoning for High 1-A+ Featherine ? I saw Elizhaa's explanation but it's still a little hard to grasp.

I do agree with 1-A at the bare minimum though. R>F was always Umineko's strong point.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I don't think Featherine is H1-A+ too. The reasoning needs a lot of more context, based by looking at the currently H1-A+ we have today.

However, those same scans are a golden key for supporting High 1-A Featherine.

 

[Ovy7]

I have no idea why High 1A+ Auau was even discussed

 

[Wankbreaker]

I don't think Featherine is H1-A+ too. The reasoning needs a lot of more context, based by looking at the currently H1-A+ we have today.

However, those same scans are a golden key for supporting High 1-A Featherine.

I’m too lazy to go into detail,but think about it this way.

The only restriction Featherine has is “self”. Piece and other characters remark that because of this, she actually found it “harder” to create, as her creative potential could flourish with any guidelines/restrictions put into place. If there were absolutely any restrictions at all, she would have not felt this way.

Due to this,her ability should also encompass all possible character strings.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

First time doing this myself

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @DarkGrath

We need help from you here and have waited for a very long time.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Dereck03

If any of you are willing to help out here that would also be very appreciated.

 

[Nekobako]

I’m too lazy to go into detail,but think about it this way.

The only restriction Featherine has is “self”. Piece and other characters remark that because of this, she actually found it “harder” to create, as her creative potential could flourish with any guidelines/restrictions put into place. If there were absolutely any restrictions at all, she would have not felt this way.

Due to this,her ability should also encompass all possible character strings.

If Featherine is High 1-A+ but there is a Creator who above Featherine.
Is it possible when Creator isn't 0?

Also, I never see any monism in WTC

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I’m too lazy to go into detail,but think about it this way.

The only restriction Featherine has is “self”. Piece and other characters remark that because of this, she actually found it “harder” to create, as her creative potential could flourish with any guidelines/restrictions put into place. If there were absolutely any restrictions at all, she would have not felt this way.

Due to this,her ability should also encompass all possible character strings.

Could you please explain this further ?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I agree that @Wankbreaker further explaining his point here would help, to ease Admin's work on comprehending the arguments of an already 8 pages long thread.

That being said, I'd link back the summary for High 1-A, since it happened 2 pages ago and I think it is important

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

It seems admins do not come to this thread… But I will not let it die

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Planck69

We need help here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure how I can be of help here tbh.

 

[LiewtiStar]

Bump pls

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux

Your help would be very appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, can somebody write an easy to understand explanation post regarding what they need to evaluate here, please?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Since this already is a 6 pages long thread, I'll try to summarize the arguments for High 1-A in a single post so people do not have to go through the entire thread to see it.

Spoiler: Arguments here

Featherine is transcendental over the Witch Domain the same way the Witch Domain is transcendental over the Human Domain, mocking witches the same way they mock humans. Her power sees the creation equally as a story, regardless the level of the witch domain or Human domain, which she can control at will.

Additionally, for her true form the difference between the Human Domain (quantity, below 1-A) and the Witch Domain (realm of "quality", encompassing a hierarchy of qualitative superiorities) are seen as trivial, irrelevant.

Featherine's study exists on a realm entirely outside of the Witch Domain, i.e., outside of the framework of qualitative superiorities that is governed by the ladder

From the Tiering System FAQ thread. Basically, it shows that you can consider "transcend 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans" as a way to become High 1-A, when it mwans transcending the generic quality defining the hierarchy of qualitative layers. Which is almost a 1:1 what Featherine's arguments are:

• She transcends 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans
• Said diffefence is shown to be a transcendence over the generic quality defining a hierarchy of qualitative layers (as it is outside of the Witch Domain due to being transcendental over it. That including the ladder of qualitative superiority), just as 1-A (witches) transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces (Human Domain)

Counter Arguments

From what I've seen, the main counter argument comes from thinking that Featherine is just a r>f on top over the hierarchy of the Witch Domain, instead of another hierarchy over it, "an inaccesible cardinal of Qualitative Superiorities". And that "none of that implies that it transcends the quality the same way 1-A transcends the quality of all possible dimensional spaces".

-

Anyway, in my opinion Featherine's description is almost a 1:1 to the description of the part of the FAQ I've sent.

I'll not touch High 1-A+ because I honestly haven't read the arguments for it. So I'll let other people summarize them for admins

Besides what is in the OP, I think this is a good summary to the only controversial part of the CRT (High 1-A)

Since it seems like Tier 0 has been unanimously rejected

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

From monday to Sunday, huh

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Since this already is a 6 pages long thread, I'll try to summarize the arguments for High 1-A in a single post so people do not have to go through the entire thread to see it.

Spoiler: Arguments here

Featherine is transcendental over the Witch Domain the same way the Witch Domain is transcendental over the Human Domain, mocking witches the same way they mock humans. Her power sees the creation equally as a story, regardless the level of the witch domain or Human domain, which she can control at will.

Additionally, for her true form the difference between the Human Domain (quantity, below 1-A) and the Witch Domain (realm of "quality", encompassing a hierarchy of qualitative superiorities) are seen as trivial, irrelevant.

Featherine's study exists on a realm entirely outside of the Witch Domain, i.e., outside of the framework of qualitative superiorities that is governed by the ladder

From the Tiering System FAQ thread. Basically, it shows that you can consider "transcend 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans" as a way to become High 1-A, when it mwans transcending the generic quality defining the hierarchy of qualitative layers. Which is almost a 1:1 what Featherine's arguments are:

• She transcends 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans
• Said diffefence is shown to be a transcendence over the generic quality defining a hierarchy of qualitative layers (as it is outside of the Witch Domain due to being transcendental over it. That including the ladder of qualitative superiority), just as 1-A (witches) transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces (Human Domain)

Counter Arguments

From what I've seen, the main counter argument comes from thinking that Featherine is just a r>f on top over the hierarchy of the Witch Domain, instead of another hierarchy over it, "an inaccesible cardinal of Qualitative Superiorities". And that "none of that implies that it transcends the quality the same way 1-A transcends the quality of all possible dimensional spaces".

-

Anyway, in my opinion Featherine's description is almost a 1:1 to the description of the part of the FAQ I've sent.

I'll not touch High 1-A+ because I honestly haven't read the arguments for it. So I'll let other people summarize them for admins

Besides what is in the OP, I think this is a good summary to the only controversial part of the CRT (High 1-A)

Since it seems like Tier 0 has been unanimously rejected

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[Ovy7]

I find it kinda funny how I'm getting tagged to check my own thread.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I find it kinda funny how I'm getting tagged to check my own thread.

Imagine you say you disagree

 

[HigashikataJobin]

One question: can the 1-A part of the thread be applied? Since apparently it was something agreed upon by everyone and it seems that this thread is never going anywhere (Ant has already tagged several staff members about 3 times and nothing).

 

[Antvasima]

I find it kinda funny how I'm getting tagged to check my own thread.

Sorry. I have massive amounts of threads and other tasks to try to keep track of.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Dereck03 @LephyrTheRevanchist

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

Post in thread 'Umineko Revision 3: The New Tiering System'

Sunday at 15:41

Since this already is a 6 pages long thread, I'll try to summarize the arguments for High 1-A in a single post so people do not have to go through the entire thread to see it.

Spoiler: Arguments here

Featherine is transcendental over the Witch Domain the same way the Witch Domain is transcendental over the Human Domain, mocking witches the same way they mock humans. Her power sees the creation equally as a story, regardless the level of the witch domain or Human domain, which she can control at will.

Additionally, for her true form the difference between the Human Domain (quantity...

• Antvasima

• 

 

[Karabach-barabach]

At this point, closing this thread and making a new one seems like a better option

 

[HigashikataJobin]

At this point, closing this thread and making a new one seems like a better option

That's what I though, but at least the 1-A tiering seems to have been accepted by every moderator.

 

[Antvasima]

At this point, closing this thread and making a new one seems like a better option

The new thread should be linked to here before we close this one though.

That's what I though, but at least the 1-A tiering seems to have been accepted by every moderator.

Well, that can likely be applied now at least then.