- 10,502
- 11,573
- Thread starter
- #41
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What to rank name based manipulations as? (Mostly Clash of Hexennacht, mentions Bleach and Medaka Box as precedence cases)
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
- 14,888
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Why would we equalize linguistic abstractions to concepts? :v Abstract =/= concept.
Another example (partially tainted since I knew how we treated MB stuff, but I also asked other people for their opinion) is Unsong's system of Applied Kabbalah, where characters step in a higher realm and linguistically manipulate the words of that reality, with those changes emanating out into effects in the physical world. This is classified as just Reality Warping (and Dimensional Travel, and every application its been used for).
Still, this may not be a one-to-one comparison. In Unsong, the letters in, say, a location can be changed and altered to create effects without the location disappearing. And later on in the fight, combatants can take the letters straight from the location again. It's not like there's a line of text directly representing the location that's being modified and kept in that modified state.
Unsong also has threads of "the true name lets you control them" but this isn't really treated as an ability, it's more of a weakness of the beings who function that way, since any random person can just invoke those names for control. The setting's God is slightly different since he has dozens of names, causing different effects when they're spoken, but for our profiles those are practically treated as just magical spells any character can invoke.
Another example (partially tainted since I knew how we treated MB stuff, but I also asked other people for their opinion) is Unsong's system of Applied Kabbalah, where characters step in a higher realm and linguistically manipulate the words of that reality, with those changes emanating out into effects in the physical world. This is classified as just Reality Warping (and Dimensional Travel, and every application its been used for).
Still, this may not be a one-to-one comparison. In Unsong, the letters in, say, a location can be changed and altered to create effects without the location disappearing. And later on in the fight, combatants can take the letters straight from the location again. It's not like there's a line of text directly representing the location that's being modified and kept in that modified state.
Unsong also has threads of "the true name lets you control them" but this isn't really treated as an ability, it's more of a weakness of the beings who function that way, since any random person can just invoke those names for control. The setting's God is slightly different since he has dozens of names, causing different effects when they're spoken, but for our profiles those are practically treated as just magical spells any character can invoke.
- 10,502
- 11,573
- Thread starter
- #43
Hmmm... so what would you say about the Clash of Hexennacht case in particular? Names are said to be the essence / definition of things and making use of that to control things is treated as an ability.
Reality Warping and for those that resist it resistance to reality warping?
Reality Warping and for those that resist it resistance to reality warping?
- 14,888
- 12,400
How about just Information Manipulation?
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,238
- 12,288
Type 1??????
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,238
- 12,288
I think, it is both type 1 & 2, or a typeless?????
- 10,502
- 11,573
- Thread starter
- #48
Thing is, the verse already has something called Ether which is Type 2 Information and essentially something like the basic components of reality. You can see it mentioned in the first quote and it seems to me like names grant a deeper control than the Ether manipulation all Witches have.
So, in context, it would make more sense for it to be something else.
- 14,888
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I get that sorta mindset, but sometimes verses differentiate things that we just don't. Different types of spells/magic that both just fall under the generic "Magic" term on our wiki.
My view is worth taking with a grain of salt, however, since it's late and I didn't read the quotes too closely.
My view is worth taking with a grain of salt, however, since it's late and I didn't read the quotes too closely.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,238
- 12,288
Essence Manipulation???. Abstract Manipulation????? if we have any of those lol
I think some kind of very niche Conceptual Manipulation, iirc we have this for Nasuverse???, they have typeless concept manip that can't fit into our system???
I think some kind of very niche Conceptual Manipulation, iirc we have this for Nasuverse???, they have typeless concept manip that can't fit into our system???
- 10,502
- 11,573
- Thread starter
- #51
Ok, so to summarize the opinions:
- Everything12 for listing all as Concept Manipulation Type 3
- Agnaa is in favour of Information Manipulation Type 2 for Clash of Hexennacht/On a Godless Planet (which would mean they're extra abstract information). Although, I think that was just for the two verses in particular and in general (like Bleach and Medaka Box) just reality warping or something?
- Various normal members who I'm too lazy to all list in detail are in favour of Concept Type 3, but Type 2 if changing the name changes all things having that name. (roughly speaking)
- 14,888
- 12,400
I don't know anything about Bleach so I can't comment on it. The verses I was talking about (Medaka Box and Unsong) don't really have true names utilized, and just have various forms of semantic manipulation changing reality. You described Hexennacht, and it sounded like it was just talking about information, rather than concepts.
- 5,220
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Wait a minute, why are you still discussing and voting on Bleach when you said that it should be saved for a separate thread?
Myself and probably most of the other Bleach supporters unfollowed this thread (given that none of them have commented), it's a but suspect to then continue discussing it after saying otherwise.
- 10,502
- 11,573
- Thread starter
- #55
We're (or I am) discussing the general case, not Bleach's case in particular. At least I didn't intend to. Probably shouldn't have listed it as an example. If the general case reaches any conclusion Bleach would of course get its own CRT as for where it fits in.
- 17,028
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Sounds good
thought we were hopping back on Bleach with your last post mentioning it
- 10,502
- 11,573
- Thread starter
- #57
Right.
So let me try to abstract that.
Manipulating names in a fashion that changes things, but no further context, would be reality warping.
Manipulating names that additionally are the essence and/or definition of the things they apply to would be Information Type 2.
Any particular case where you would go for concept manipulation? Aside from concepts being actually mentioned, of course, as that one's obvious.
- 14,888
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If it was just about names? I'm not sure.
For a slightly different caveat, if the world was shown to be a video game/simulation/etc. (think Log Horizon), I'd go with Data Manipulation instead.
The trouble is that names seem to be a lot narrower than entire concepts. Even if an object was transformed into a completely different object by the name being changed (i.e. a dog transforming into a cat), that would more imply that something below the conceptual level was changed. The object's information (specifically, its name) was changed, and so the relevant concepts, which determine the qualities of objects, and decide participation based on the object's name, started attributing different qualities to it.
There may be a case that'd grant concept manip without explicit statements, but I can't really think of any.
For a slightly different caveat, if the world was shown to be a video game/simulation/etc. (think Log Horizon), I'd go with Data Manipulation instead.
The trouble is that names seem to be a lot narrower than entire concepts. Even if an object was transformed into a completely different object by the name being changed (i.e. a dog transforming into a cat), that would more imply that something below the conceptual level was changed. The object's information (specifically, its name) was changed, and so the relevant concepts, which determine the qualities of objects, and decide participation based on the object's name, started attributing different qualities to it.
There may be a case that'd grant concept manip without explicit statements, but I can't really think of any.
- 14,888
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After giving it a bit of thought, I've come to the conclusion that this may not matter at all. As in, it shouldn't change the results of any matches, just the wording on the profile. As Information Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, and Law Manipulation are pretty much the same thing, just on different scales.
Perhaps this analogy isn't widely applicable, but it's the one that led me to this conclusion.
If you've got a program, and you can edit anything in memory directly, what's more powerful? Editing the data in objects (Information/Data Manip), editing the data for classes (Concept Manip), or editing the code (Law/Physics Manip)? The answer is, none of them, there's not a meaningful difference between them (the Ocarina of Time speedrunning community had to learn this when they found glitches that gave this capability). They're all just information that applies on different scales; object data applies to that one instance, class data applies to all objects that participate in that class, and code applies to all objects that it interacts with. This makes some more broad and some more specific, but that's not a fundamental difference in how it works or its potency.
Is there a good reason for saying that these abilities and their resistances are wholly separate and unscaleable?
Perhaps this analogy isn't widely applicable, but it's the one that led me to this conclusion.
If you've got a program, and you can edit anything in memory directly, what's more powerful? Editing the data in objects (Information/Data Manip), editing the data for classes (Concept Manip), or editing the code (Law/Physics Manip)? The answer is, none of them, there's not a meaningful difference between them (the Ocarina of Time speedrunning community had to learn this when they found glitches that gave this capability). They're all just information that applies on different scales; object data applies to that one instance, class data applies to all objects that participate in that class, and code applies to all objects that it interacts with. This makes some more broad and some more specific, but that's not a fundamental difference in how it works or its potency.
Is there a good reason for saying that these abilities and their resistances are wholly separate and unscaleable?
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