What speed is moving in an infinitesimal moment in time?

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Infinitesimal means the smallest number that is closest to 0 but not 0.
Would this be infinite speed or MFTL+ finite speed?
I would think it's infinite because I think that infinitesimal would be undefined. OR it would be "at least MFTL+" so it would be finite but faster than any other MFTL+, almost infinite but not quite.
This is the feat by the way. Image 1 Image 2

 

[Everything12]

Undefined, some form of MFTL+ in this context.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Undefined, some form of MFTL+ in this context.

Would this be true?

OR it would be "at least MFTL+" so it would be finite but faster than any other MFTL+, almost infinite but not quite.

 

[Everything12]

Nope.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Nope.

I don't understand. So this is just unquantifiable? How far into MFTL+?

 

[Thelastmlg]

Is unquantifiable because there is no number defined for "close to zero but not it", though usually people use plank lenghts for infinitesimal time

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Is unquantifiable because there is no number defined for "close to zero but not it", though usually people use plank lenghts for infinitesimal time

Then I don't understand why an at least MFTL+ tier is wrong. If it's unquantifiable, that means it's super high into the tier because the time frame is approaching 0. The speed is finite but it's nigh infinite.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Infinitesimal... is basically means infinitely small, so Infinite speed there is.

Idk if infinitesimally timeframe could be equate to 0 second in this case, but I'm damn ******* sure it is Infinite speed since the case reversal of traversing infinite distance in finite time is to be quite exact, is traversing finite distance in infinitesimal time (the first feat being Infinite speed). Which means, if you put 0 > infinitesimal it'd be either make it higher than baseline Infinite speed or even perhaps, Immeasurable speed(?). But of course, for the sake of simplicity and avoiding pseudo-intellectual bs I can see that this site will take 'em as equal unless the verse does otherwise.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The feat will be MFTL+, but infinitesimal is not a concretely defined number (nor part of the real numbers), since for every given number you can give, I can always show you another number even closer to zero (such as by dividing it by 2)

So the feat will be MFTL+, but unquantifiably above Baseline MFTL+

 

[Vietthai96]

still MFTL+ because infinitesimal moment is still finite time (just insanely short), it is unquantifiably above baseline MFTL+

 

[Greenshifter]

Infinitesimal... is basically means infinitely small, so Infinite speed there is.

Idk if infinitesimally timeframe could be equate to 0 second in this case, but I'm damn ******* sure it is Infinite speed since the case reversal of traversing infinite distance in finite time is to be quite exact, is traversing finite distance in infinitesimal time (the first feat being Infinite speed). Which means, if you put 0 > infinitesimal it'd be either make it higher than baseline Infinite speed or even perhaps, Immeasurable speed(?). But of course, for the sake of simplicity and avoiding pseudo-intellectual bs I can see that this site will take 'em as equal unless the verse does otherwise.

This is technically right but I’m not sure what the site’s standards say on it since infinitesimals are hard to use or prove anything with going by what DT said. However it could qualify for infinite speed since it works better for time stops to be defined that way or smth. More information here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/inaccessible-speed-in-vs-battle-wiki.128875/#post-4373807

but infinitesimal is not a concretely defined number (nor part of the real numbers)

Infinitesimals are concretely defined within the hyperreals.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Hm. I don't agree with it being unquantifiably above MFTL+, that literally means >>>1000c which is clearly not the case here. This is more like unquantifiably below infinite speed if anything, since the speed is finite but it's the closest thing you can get to infinite. But that kind of doesn't make sense as that would make it infinite.
I'll wait for more answers.

 

[Vietthai96]

Hm. I don't agree with it being unquantifiably above MFTL+, that literally means >>>1000c which is clearly not the case here. This is more like unquantifiably below infinite speed if anything, since the speed is finite but it's the closest thing you can get to infinite. But that kind of doesn't make sense as that would make it infinite.
I'll wait for more answers.

it is exactly unquantifiably above MFTL+, as you can't quantify something like infinitesimal, it is closer to zero, but by unknown amount as it literally belong to quantum physic territory already

 

[Greenshifter]

Don’t break your head over it Fluffy, it’s literally infinite speed. The only confusing thing is wiki standards, not science or maths.

 

[Vietthai96]

Don’t break your head over it Fluffy, it’s literally infinite speed. The only confusing thing is wiki standards, not science or maths.

lmao, bro

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Infinitesimal is smaller than any standard reals... it isn't something like into infinitely small (like how potential infinity works, being into infinitely large or something with infinite amount of elements, but still isn't a true infinity). Infinitesimal is literally supposed to be an inverse to infinity itself, which is infinitely small. It doesn't exist in modern standard calculus since it led contradiction and was replaced by the concept of limit.

This is technically right but I’m not sure what the site’s standards say on it since infinitesimals are hard to use or prove anything with going by what DT said. However it could qualify for infinite speed since it works better for time stops to be defined that way or smth. More information here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/inaccessible-speed-in-vs-battle-wiki.128875/#post-4373807

Infinitesimals are concretely defined within the hyperreals.

Didn't knew that thread exist, thanks~!

 

[Greenshifter]

To put this mathematically, Fluffy asked the following:

lim Δt —> 0 (Δx/Δt) = ?
The answer is +infinity since Δt is approaching 0 from the positive numbers’ side.
I should also note that Δx is a positive constant here.

 

[Vietthai96]

but approaching 0 is not absolute 0, similar to ad-infinitum is not true infinity

 

[Greenshifter]

but approaching 0 is not absolute 0, similar to ad-infinitum is not true infinity

Yes, that is correct. Absolute 0 is something I’d call inaccessible speed. Which the wiki finds pointless to implement. However we use the approximation of “moving an infinite distance in a finite time” rather than “moving an infinite distance in no time at all” which is what you would get if you used “true infinity”.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Infinitesimals are concretely defined within the hyperreals.

Sure, but for calculating speed the timeframe hyperreal numbers can't be used. Pretty sure using only real numbers would make sense with the equation

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Sure, but for calculating speed the timeframe hyperreal numbers can't be used. Pretty sure using only real numbers would make sense with the equation

But infinitesimal doesn't exist in standard calculus, and even so by the definition, infinitesimal is supposed to be smaller than any real numbers which translated it infinitely small that opposed infinitely large, a value larger than any finite numbers.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

But infinitesimal doesn't exist in standard calculus, and even so by the definition, infinitesimal is supposed to be smaller than any real numbers which translated it infinitely small that opposed infinitely large, a value larger than any finite numbers.

And this is why I said it only makes sense with real numbers. With infinitesimal it doesn't make sense since the value is both bigger than any finite number, yet still not infinite

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

And this is why I said it only makes sense with real numbers. With infinitesimal it doesn't make sense since the value is both bigger than any finite number, yet still not infinite

I'm pretty sure that infinitesimal isn't something like finite, but very, very smol like some of you guys think. It is infinite, infinitely small, smaller than any real number exists but just doesn't approach 0. 1/infinite is infinitesimal (which is happened to be 0 in the limit of a function).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm pretty sure that infinitesimal isn't something like finite, but very, very smol like some of you guys think. It is infinite, infinitely small, smaller than any real number exists but just doesn't approach 0.

It's basically the closest positive number to zero which isn't actually zero. That's why dividing something by it make the result bigger than any finite number but not infinite

1/infinite is infinitesimal (which happened to be 0 in the limit of a function).

I'm not sure infinity can be divided like that, but alright

 

[Kuro4416]

Following

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

It's basically the closest positive number to zero which isn't actually zero. That's why dividing something by it make the result bigger than any finite number but not infinite

Both infinite and infinitesimal are reciprocals, so the latter can't be a finite value.

I'm not sure infinity can be divided like that, but alright

In the limit of a function, 1/0 is infinite because 1/1 is 1, 1/0.001 = 1,000, 1/0.0000001 is 10000000, and so on. 1/infinite being infinitesimal is applied in any number system that used said concept (surreals, hyperreals, et cetera) since it is supposed to be an inverse to infinity itself. Yes, it doesn't make sense in the concept of a limit since 0 > infinitesimal so that's why it got replaced because the contradictions it has. That's AFAIK.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Should be infinite. Within the real numbers infinitesimal and 0 are the same thing.

Meanwhile, in the hyperreals (if we want to use them here, since they actually allow for non-zero infinitesimals even if they aren't really part of the usual speed definitions) dividing a finite positive real number by an infinitesimal hyperreal number results in an infinite hyperreal number.

Let me add that I doubt that this applies to the feat you show, though.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

this is simple it's just infinite
moving finite distance in infintesimal time is the same as moving infinite distance in finite time

 

[Blahblah9755]

Keep in mind that infinitesimal also has the more standard definition of “very small” outside of mathematics, so you need some good contextual evidence that this actually refers to infinitesimal in the mathematical sense.
Also, I don’t see any mention of infinitesimal in the feat in the first place.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Should be infinite. Within the real numbers infinitesimal and 0 are the same thing.

Meanwhile, in the hyperreals (if we want to use them here, since they actually allow for non-zero infinitesimals even if they aren't really part of the usual speed definitions) dividing a finite positive real number by an infinitesimal hyperreal number results in an infinite hyperreal number.

Let me add that I doubt that this applies to the feat you show, though.

Thanks.

Keep in mind that infinitesimal also has the more standard definition of “very small” outside of mathematics, so you need some good contextual evidence that this actually refers to infinitesimal in the mathematical sense.
Also, I don’t see any mention of infinitesimal in the feat in the first place.

Basically the time frame should be instant because the technique is stated to move in an instant.

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean tbf you’d have to give some evidence that they mean mathematical instant rather than “really fast”

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Thanks.

Basically the time frame should be instant because the technique is stated to move in an instant.

IT still needs charging time to perform. And besides, they don't move faster than IT, they just dodge and react to the attacks after they use IT

 

[Greenshifter]

Didn't Cooler move literally during IT in the movies?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Didn't Cooler move literally during IT in the movies?

How this have anything to do with this discussion? Especially since the movie is not canon to the manga

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

IT still needs charging time to perform. And besides, they don't move faster than IT, they just dodge and react to the attacks after they use IT

Read the scans again, granolah turns around and hits gas after he disappears to dodge his kick but before he reappears. No charging time involved.

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh Chou, my bad. thought it was Heroes.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Read the scans again, granolah turns around and hits gas after he disappears to dodge his kick but before he reappears. No charging time involved.

It's still just reacting to the attacks done after using IT. And it's not Granolah moving faster than IT, but rather him guessing/predicting where Gas would teleport to and then strike, which isn't something new (Hit VS Jiren for example)

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's still just reacting to the attacks done after using IT. And it's not Granolah moving faster than IT, but rather him guessing/predicting where Gas would teleport to and then strike, which isn't something new (Hit VS Jiren for example)

The time frame between gas disappearing and reappearing is instant.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The time frame between gas disappearing and reappearing is instant.

Again, Granolah wasn't outpacing him. He just predicted where Gas would go and moved accordingly

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Again, Granolah wasn't outpacing him. He just predicted where Gas would go and moved accordingly

What? I'm sure you didn't read the scan.

Granolah kicks, gas disappears.

Granolah reacts, predicts and kicks gas before he reappears, gas reappears and gets tagged.
The tome frame between gas disappearing and reappearing is instant. This means granolah was moving in an instantaneous time frame, thus an infinite speed feat.