Inaccessible speed in vs battle wiki

[Dai23c]

Something in the vs battle wiki has caught my attention, and it's the fact that Infinite speed and inaccessible speed are regarded as one and the same, which I consider to be logically flawed.

There should be a fairly pronounced distinction between the two as the difference between one and the other seems big enough to make it its own speed tier independent from the other and not one and the same. Since 0 overwrites infinity, it would be regarded as an inaccessible cardinal, doesn't matter how many 0's you stack on top of eachother, you will never get any numerical value beyond Zero, same happens with multiplication, and in scientific notation if we were to for example: 1.23x10^0. You would obviously see that all numbers are canceled and reduced to 0. Same would happen if you multiplied infinity by 0, it still would produce 0.
It is an inaccessible cardinal.

So going back to speed, the distinction using the speed formula would be so simple as saying:
Infinity speed = infinite distance/time

Inaccessible speed = any distance/0 time

An infinite speed being still needs a time frame to travers and infinite distance, though this might not be the case or give the illusion of not being the case if you put an infinite speed being traversing a finite space.
The being that has inaccessible speed still holds an advantage that is beyond infinite on top of the infinite speed one.
If we put the in an infinite space, the inaccessible speed being would travers the distance in 0 every time, while the infinite speed being would still require a timeframe to complete the race.

This proves that there is a clear distinction, it wouldn't matter if the infinite speed being were to complete the race in 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second, it would still take him time to do so, as opposed to someone who has inaccesible speed who will always be infinitelly faster, since there is no number that is right before Zero, it's just an inaccessible cardinal.

So for these reasons I consider that, the distinction between the two speed tiers should be specified and inaccessible speed should be accepted as a spees tier, thank for your time.

 

[Coolboy6]

 

[Arkenis]

 

[Dai23c]

Ok, I don't know what it has to do with the subject, but you don't agree with what I said? and if so, why don't you agree?

 

[Arkenis]

Ok, I don't know what it has to do with the subject, but you don't agree with what I said? and if so, why don't you agree?

No I agree inaccessible speed should be added but the wiki has gone through this same subject several times and it hasn't gotten passed for a while. You should check up the old threads about it.

 

[Dai23c]

No I agree inaccessible speed should be added but the wiki has gone through this same subject several times and it hasn't gotten passed for a while. You should check up the old threads about it.

Oh okay, I hadn't checked the old threads about it, but I understand, I hope one day it will be classified as speed on the vs battle wiki.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I am neutral

 

[YungManzi]

Who would even qualify for inaccessible under your proposal? @Dai23c

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Who would even qualify for inaccessible under your proposal? @Dai23c

Anyone who can move in time stop or places with no time.

 

[YungManzi]

Anyone who can move in time stop or places with no time.

That;s just resistance to time stop. And moving in places with no time is unquantifiable in terms of speed iirc.

 

[Lormac_CC]

That;s just resistance to time stop. And moving in places with no time is unquantifiable in terms of speed iirc.

Well the OP is trying to say it isn't just time resistance. He is using cardinality, from the little I know about cardinality, it deals with amounts and how things are arranged not speed which is why I am currently neutral

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That;s just resistance to time stop. And moving in places with no time is unquantifiable in terms of speed iirc.

Those two cases are of what the OP is proposing inaccessible speed to be.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm pretty sure 0 second movement speed showings still fall under infinite or Immeasurable. The infinite void nerf also addressed this as well.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

agree, except 2 things need to be made abundantly clear
1. timeless voids will NOT give inaccessible speed
2. Time stop will NOT give inaccesible speed

having characters whose speed can be represented with ℵ1 in the same tier of speed as people with countably infinite speed is not ok

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

actually a 3rd thing will need to be made clear, although this should be obvious
this must be consistent with this character/verse's scaling

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uhm, let's see.

• Infinite / Number = Infinite
• Number / 0 = Infinite

They're the same thing. Dunno how this is a thing.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Uhm, let's see.

• Infinite / Number = Infinite
• Number / 0 = Infinite

They're the same thing. Dunno how this is a thing.

basically, if im not mistaken
the first example would be represented by a countable infinity
the second one would be represented by an uncountable infinity

atleast i think, from other discussions i've seen regarding inaccesible speed

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I am aware, YungManzi, Qawsedf, and Strym are correct above.

Should we close this thread?

 

[StrymULTRA]

basically, if im not mistaken
the first example would be represented by a countable infinity
the second one would be represented by an uncountable infinity

atleast i think, from other discussions i've seen regarding inaccesible speed

Literally how lmao.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Literally how lmao.

wym how? like an example?

 

[StrymULTRA]

wym how? like an example?

How would it be uncountable infinite if both are under the same set of math?

I mean, if you divide any number by infinite you get zero, and if you divide any number by zero you get infinite. And yes, with our countable infinity.

 

[Ganasto]

Uhm, let's see.

• Infinite / Number = Infinite
• Number / 0 = Infinite

They're the same thing. Dunno how this is a thing.

A number divided by 0 though is undefined if that changes anything

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

I'm pretty sure 0 second movement speed showings still fall under infinite or Immeasurable. The infinite void nerf also addressed this as well.

It doesn't fit with either category. Infinite speed would still require some measure of finite time in the speed formula to still be infinite. Immeasurable speed transcends time, making the speed formula of S = D/T useless.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

How would it be uncountable infinite if both are under the same set of math?

I mean, if you divide any number by infinite you get zero, and if you divide any number by zero you get infinite. And yes, with our countable infinity.

i don't think thats true, if you divide any number by infinite, you get an infinitely small number, but not 0, and if you divide any number by 0 you get undefined normally, inaccesible speed is basically the idea that despite time being undefined, rather than the distance being achieved similarly being 0, its finite (or infinite).

 

[Qawsedf234]

having characters whose speed can be represented with ℵ1 in the same tier of speed as people with countably infinite speed is not ok

I mean, why?

In my view if this is really an issue it's probably better to just amend infinite or Immeasurable rather than add an entirely new speed that like 8 people will qualify for and everyone will try to twist/bend feats too get to anyways.

 

[StrymULTRA]

i don't think thats true, if you divide any number by infinite, you get an infinitely small number, but not 0, and if you divide any number by 0 you get undefined normally, inaccesible speed is basically the idea that despite time being undefined, rather than the distance being achieved similarly being 0, its finite (or infinite).

Go learn some basic math, as what's a limit of a function completely debunks this. Tell me a school book or an actual mathematician who says that "when you divide from infinity you get an infinitely small number but not zero". Easy, there's not, because an infinitely small number doesn't exist, you straight up get zero.

 

[jjvvb]

Go learn some basic math, as what's a limit of a function completely debunks this. Tell me a school book or an actual mathematician who says that "when you divide from infinity you get an infinitely small number but not zero". Easy, there's not, because an infinitely small number doesn't exist, you straight up get zero.

Oh I see you're completely uneducated on mathematics and you just had a calculus class and believe you have an understanding of Infinities! Alright let's clearify now.

A countable infinity is an infinity that you can accurately predict the process of heading towards that infinity by always being able to predict the next incoming value. For instance when counting natural numbers, there's always going to be a next number which you know for a fact is the n+1.

An uncountable infinity is an infinity that you cannot predict the next incoming value which division by zero shows this perfectly.
Another example is a set like (0,1) where you're trying to get the next number between 0 and 1 that isn't 1. You of course, cannot figure out or know which number this is since it could be any number. That's why you might have heard in maths class that there's more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are natural numbers.

This of course, is a simple explanation so take this with a grain of salt. But no, the "limit" formula in calculus just proves that this PROCESS / FUNCTION is going to be heading towards infinity, it has nothing to prove with handling infinity as an OBJECT.

CONSTRUCTED INFINITY and PROCESS TO INFINITY are two completely different things and should not be confused with eachother.

Regardless, I agree inaccessible speed should be a tier for uncountably infinite speed, but it should have very specific qualifying points.

 

[Greenshifter]

Inaccessible speed is a thing, I explained this to Yuri a while back with limit infinities, limit zeroes and actual zeroes.

Easy, there's not, because an infinitely small number doesn't exist, you straight up get zero.

Yeah cause infinitesimal numbers don't exist. Which is like the basis for limits kek.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Go learn some basic math, as what's a limit of a function completely debunks this. Tell me a school book or an actual mathematician who says that "when you divide from infinity you get an infinitely small number but not zero". Easy, there's not, because an infinitely small number doesn't exist, you straight up get zero.

Why are you being so aggressive and disrespectful for no reason?

Ignoring that, 0 is literally nothing, no quantity, nothing. Which cannot be the case in 1/infinity because there is a quantity there, which is 1. The resulting number would just be infinitely small.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh I see you're completely uneducated on mathematics and you just had a calculus class and believe you have an understanding of Infinities! Alright let's clearify now.

A countable infinity is an infinity that you can accurately predict the process of heading towards that infinity by always being able to predict the next incoming value. For instance when counting natural numbers, there's always going to be a next number which you know for a fact is the n+1.

An uncountable infinity is an infinity that you cannot predict the next incoming value which division by zero shows this perfectly.
Another example is a set like (0,1) where you're trying to get the next number between 0 and 1 that isn't 1. You of course, cannot figure out or know which number this is since it could be any number. That's why you might have heard in maths class that there's more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are natural numbers.

This of course, is a simple explanation so take this with a grain of salt. But no, the "limit" formula in calculus just proves that this PROCESS / FUNCTION is going to be heading towards infinity, it has nothing to prove with handling infinity as an OBJECT.

CONSTRUCTED INFINITY and PROCESS TO INFINITY are two completely different things and should not be confused with eachother.

Regardless, I agree inaccessible speed should be a tier for uncountably infinite speed, but it should have very specific qualifying points.

I'm perfectly aware of what the **** is the difference between countable and uncountable lmao. And approaching to infinity doesn't really matter as limits are literally made to see what a function approaches to.

Inaccessible speed is a thing, I explained this to Yuri a while back with limit infinities, limit zeroes and actual zeroes.

If even Yuri doesn't agree with your fanmade term which is made to wank characters who don't have feats outside timeless voids then you should rethink about this.

Yeah cause infinitesimal numbers don't exist. Which is like the basis for limits kek.

And yeah, they do exist, but they're not included in the standard real numbers. Also, if I use a Google calculator or a scientific one like Desmos, it's either infinite like the former or undefined like the latter.

But why undefined? Easy, because you can't get an actual number, thus you can't get a speed from it either.

Why are you being so aggressive and disrespectful for no reason?

Ignoring that, 0 is literally nothing, no quantity, nothing. Which cannot be the case in 1/infinity because there is a quantity there, which is 1. The resulting number would just be infinitely small.

Right because is zero we can't make operations, duh.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As far as I am aware, YungManzi, Qawsedf, and Strym are correct above.

Should we close this thread?

Kinda of lol. I'll call Yuri over this given he was mentioned before.

 

[Darksmash]

An uncountable infinity is an infinity that you cannot predict the next incoming value which division by zero shows this perfectly.
Another example is a set like (0,1) where you're trying to get the next number between 0 and 1 that isn't 1. You of course, cannot figure out or know which number this is since it could be any number. That's why you might have heard in maths class that there's more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are natural numbers.

What you said literally has nothing to do with division with 0 lmfao. Saying whatever you want isn't mathematics. A continuous open interval not having a defined lower bound has literal 0 shit to do with division by 0

 

[Greenshifter]

If even Yuri doesn't agree with your fanmade term which is made to wank characters who don't have feats outside timeless voids then you should rethink about this.

I wasn’t aware of the existence of inaccessible speed back then (and it was more-so about Hunter Zolomon which isn’t a timeless void speed feat), also who said he disagreed with my reasoning?

And yeah, they do exist, but they're not included in the standard real numbers. Also, if I use a Google calculator or a scientific one like Desmos, it's either infinite like the former or undefined like the latter.

But why undefined? Easy, because you can't get an actual number, thus you can't get a speed from it either.

Again, limits literally use infinitesimal numbers in their definition. There’s a reason x approaches 0, it becomes infinitesimally small. That’s the difference between limit 0 and actual 0. If you have an actual 0 you can multiply it by any variable and be certain that the result will be 0. The same can not be said for a limit 0. The former is inaccessible speed (moving in actual 0 time) and the latter is infinite speed (moving in limit 0 time).

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, why?

In my view if this is really an issue it's probably better to just amend infinite or Immeasurable rather than add an entirely new speed that like 8 people will qualify for and everyone will try to twist/bend feats too get to anyways.

I personally also think that adding an extra type of infinite speed seems very unnecessary, and that we should close this thread.

 

[Greenshifter]

I personally also think that adding an extra type of infinite speed seems very unnecessary, and that we should close this thread.

It is not infinite speed Ant. Someone who is infinite^2 in speed would still be immensely slower than an inaccessible speed character. It’s basically the question of can you time stop an infinite speed character and the answer is yes. Cause they take some infinitesimal amount of time to move. Meanwhile inaccessible speed characters don’t, so they can’t be time stopped by regular time stops.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I personally also think that adding an extra type of infinite speed seems very unnecessary, and that we should close this thread.

hypothetically if we do settle to amend infinite and immeasurable speed, what would be noted? "Note that this speed tier ranges anywhere from countably infinite to any higher set of infinite speed?" or would you say "Note that moving in 0 time is generally considered to be a higher level of infinite speed than baseline"?

or are you guys gonna opt to not make any note at all?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

If even Yuri doesn't agree with your fanmade term which is made to wank characters who don't have feats outside timeless voids then you should rethink about this.

People will wank regardless of the addition of a new speed tier or not. Thats why I proposed 3 notes earlier i the thread and i'll say it again

1. Timeless voids don't qualify
2. Time stop don't qualify
3. It has to be consistent with the speed scaling within the verse.

 

[Qawsedf234]

hypothetically if we do settle to amend infinite and immeasurable speed, what would be noted? "

I would probably note it under Immeasurable since it fits the nul time thing better than infinite.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I personally also think that adding an extra type of infinite speed seems very unnecessary, and that we should close this thread.

Please do. This discussion is just stupid.

I wasn’t aware of the existence of inaccessible speed back then (and it was more-so about Hunter Zolomon which isn’t a timeless void speed feat), also who said he disagreed with my reasoning?

I talk to him off site lmao, ofc I know.

I wasn’t aware of the existence of inaccessible speed back then (and it was more-so about Hunter Zolomon which isn’t a timeless void speed feat), also who said he disagreed with my reasoning?

Again, limits literally use infinitesimal numbers in their definition. There’s a reason x approaches 0, it becomes infinitesimally small. That’s the difference between limit 0 and actual 0. If you have an actual 0 you can multiply it by any variable and be certain that the result will be 0. The same can not be said for a limit 0. The former is inaccessible speed (moving in actual 0 time) and the latter is infinite speed (moving in limit 0 time).

This is proof of this discussion being dumb. It ignores my points, unless you actually think that 1 and 2 are the same because "when both are divided from 0 they both are the same infinity" while it's obviously false.

What you're proposing is basically Immeasurable as is uncountably above baseline infinite lmfao.

 

[Antvasima]

The issue is that virtually all characters in our wiki with infinite speed have been given its because they can move so swift that time literally stands still for them, not because they moved a literally infinite distance, and "inaccessible" speed is still about moving infinitely fast, not about landing punches before the character throwing them began to move, i.e. immeasurable.

As such all of this is completely unnecessary, along with providing lots of unneeded work, and changing an easily understood title into something worse.

Given the above, I firmly reject this revision. We should preferably close this thread.