We're WAY too vague on Samus' equipment

[LuckyEmile]

So, recently someone suggested to use Samus in a vs debate, and restricted it to the 6-C form, which is labelled "Basic Legendary Power Suit". At first, this seemed doable, I have a good idea of her equipment, abilities, etc, but I wanted to know what was and was not restricted to this. However, the page offered no help, because it's split off from the second tab "Standard arsenal" which is a very vague name to begin with, since we seems to include some of her arsenal in for 6-C according to the powers and abilities segment, yet restrict others for the 5-B. I found that at least the bombs are restricted to "standard arsenal", but what about the missiles, say? What can we use and what can't we use? It's overly vague, and this can be harmful to if we wish to make threads. It must have functioned before hand okay somehow, but... we shouldn't see this as a reason to be lazy and not make it more clear.

I guess the easiest way to do so would be split the standard equipment in tabs to match each tab used for the rest of the profile, rather than have it all in one. So far, we're allowing a Samus who's AP is without bombs use bombs according to the current layout, which is a bit silly really. If this seems like a task of "but she has so much, restricting it to each would be difficult!", I do have a profile on my wiki ( http://lucky-emile.wikia.com/wiki/Samus'_equipment ) which at least puts them neatly and in order on one page. I feel like we should clear this up though, as it will help the profile be less vague, make things simplier and easier, and avoid paradoxs like the bombs.

 

[LuckyEmile]

"It must have functioned before hand okay somehow"

Turns out in some threads they actually have debated what equipment can be used for 6-C form, so... yeah, this would be best to be adressed.

 

[SomebodyData]

Standard Arsenal means exactly what it says, what Samus usually has in her Legendary Varia Suit.

Bombs are not restricted to the 5-B tab, whoever told you that is explicitly lying.

We used to have it more detailed, but no one actually read it, causing more issues.

However, you did give me an idea, I'mma edit the page accordingly, tell me how it looks afterwards.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically what SomebodyData said.

Well normal bombs aren't restricted to her 5-B key, but Power Bombs are iirc.

And yeah, we used to have tabbers explaining everything, but most people are too lazy to read every single tab, so we were forced to format it with more simplicity.

Will wait for SomebodyData's reformat again.

 

[Theglassman12]

Data pretty much summed it up.

 

[SomebodyData]

Did it, basically made the Standard Equipment section into Standard Equipment for each tab. Unlike the previous "Its too long to read" or "still confusing issues", there shouldn't be any reason for issues.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Perfect, it's much clearer now, and indeed not "too long to read". Thanks for the help!

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Suppose we can close the thread if problem solved?

 

[Megamangohan]

agree

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

I'm pretty sure Samus never got the Wave Beam, Beam Burst and Super Missiles in her Basic Power Suit, I'm pretty sure those were only obtainable in Varia if you don't count getting the items from sequence breaking. How many Missiles Tanks and Energy Tanks she would have maximum in the Basic Power Suit would take some digging to determine.

 

[Theglassman12]

No, in zero mission, she gets both the wave beam and super missiles.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

No, in zero mission, she gets both the wave beam and super missiles.

Following the proper sequence, you're intended to get Super Missiles in Zero Mission in Ridley's Lair after killing Imago, which is after you are supposed to get Varia Suit. Wave Beam is the same thing in Zero Mission, you get it in the area of Norfair after you're supposed to get Varia Suit if you follow the intended sequence. Just in case I forgot somehow, in what game did Samus get Wave and Supers before Varia?

 

[Theglassman12]

You also get an upgraded version of the varia suit in the end of the game.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

You also get an upgraded version of the varia suit in the end of the game.

That doesn't answer my question, when does Samus get Wave and Supers before Varia? Samus gets Supers before Varia in Super Metroid, but I don't believe she ever gets these items before Varia outside of that.

Zero Mission: Wave is in Norfair after you're supposed to get Varia, Supers are in Ridley after you get Varia.

Game Boy Metroid 2: You get Wave Beam after getting Varia here as well, even though Samus Returns has replaced this game in canon. Supers are not in the original Metroid 2.

Samus Returns: Wave is in the same area as Varia Suit, but Varia Suit is on the way to Wave Beam in my experience. This one can be debatable. Supers are acquired long after getting Varia, in the same area you fight your first Zeta Metroid.

Super: Super Missiles are acquired after Spore Spawn, but before Varia. Wave is in one of the super heated areas of Norfair, requiring Varia and Grapple to get if you don't know how to wall jump.

Prime 1: Both Wave and Supers are in Phendrana after you get Varia, you need Varia to get through Magmoor Caverns.

Prime 2: You start the game with Varia and get Supers in the Torvus Temple after killing a squad of Space Pirates. Wave Beam is not in Prime 2.

Other M: You get Wave in Sector 2 after getting Varia, Supers are in Sector 3 right before you fight Ridley and long after getting Varia.

Fusion: Supers are acquired before Varia as well in this game, since you get Supers (as a direct upgrade to regular Missiles too) after defeating B.O.X. for the first time. Wave is the third to last Power Up you get, long after Samus has acquired Varia and Gravity Suit.

Wave and Supers are not in Hunters, Prime 3, and Samus isn't playable in Federation Force.

I definitely accept Samus getting Supers in Basic Power Suit since it's happened more than once. I don't believe Samus has ever gotten Wave before Varia however.

To be clear, I'm not making this to be hostile toward anyone, I just want to clear this up for sure so no one is confused anymore.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do know that there's two different types of varia suits in the metroid series right? One where she just gets the color change, and another where she gets the shoulder balls.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

In Zero Mission, Samus still does not get Wave and Supers before the Legendary Varia Suit AND the pre-Legendary Varia Suit. In game both vartions do the same thing. What does that have to do with whether or not Samus gets Supers and Wave Beam before Samus receives the Varia Suit in each game? Well she gets Supers before Varia a few times, but I don't think she ever gets the Wave Beam upgrade before the Vara Suit upgrade.

 

[Theglassman12]

No she doesn't get the PLASMA beam until both suits. The wave beam shows up way earlier.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Samus can't use the Plasma Beam, Space Jump and Gravity Suit until she gets the Legendary Power Suit from the Ruins Test, I am fully ware of that. However, if you follow the intended sequence and do NOT sequence break, Samus doesn't get Super Missiles OR Wave Wave until AFTER getting the PRE-Legendary Varia Suit from the Brinstar Chozo Statue in Zero Mission. With sequence breaking, you don't even need to pick up Varia Suit, the Ruins Test just gives it to you if you didn't pick up the Varia Suit upgrade in Brinstar beforehand.

 

[Theglassman12]

And what does her doing the sequence breaking trick have to do with the fact that she still gets the wave beam and super missile before she fights Ridley, who's 6-C at that point in the timeline.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

And what does her doing the sequence breaking trick have to do with the fact that she still gets the wave beam and super missile before she fights Ridley, who's 6-C at that point in the timeline.

What does that have to do with determining whether or not Super Missiles and Wave Beam should be included in Samus' 6-C Key aka basic Power Suit? Yes Samus gets Wave and Supers by the time you fight Ridley, but in terms of the intended order of when you get what upgrades, in Zero Mission Samus gets Varia Suit before getting Wave Beam and Super Missiles. I'm under the impression that the gear Samus will have in her 6-C Key are those upgrades Samus acquires in her basic Power Suit only. Samus doesn't even fight Ridley in the basic Power Suit, she has the pre-Legendary Varia Suit by then.

 

[Theglassman12]

And the legendary varia suit isn't even on her profile. It's just the legendary power suit.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

And the legendary varia suit isn't even on her profile. It's just the legendary power suit.

The 5-B Key aka "Standard Arsenal" includes the Legendary Varia and Gravity Suit.

Why should the Wave Beam be in Samus' 6-C Key? I concede that Super Missiles are fine in the 6-C Key, so now it's down to the Wave Beam.

Samus has acquired Super Missiles more than once before she gets the Varia Suit upgrade, so I will agree that the Super Missile should go in the 6-C Key. However, I do not believe that Samus ever got Wave Beam before getting Varia, so the Wave Beam should not be in the 6-C Key.

I'm glad this kerfuffle was an error in communication and not something more... volatile.

 

[Theglassman12]

Why does she have the wave beam??? Cause she fought ridley in his 6-C form while the wave beam was in her possession. Literally every other 5-B suit for her is based on her after she passed the chozo test. Until you can show me proof that she doesn't get the wave beam until after the test, the wave beam should and will stay in her 6-C tier.

 

[SomebodyData]

In the manga Samus already had the Wave Beam before getting her original Varia Suit anyways.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

In the manga Samus already had the Wave Beam before getting her original Varia Suit anyways.

At that point in the manga it breaks the Zero Mission in-game canon pretty hard, like when she fought King Worm and Imago all the same time. Then she went on a spirit walk with Grey Voice, then got the Varia Suit and had her real body appear in another location, that happened to be right in front of Ridley. I'd take game canon over the manga at that point, but that's just me.

Why does she have the wave beam??? Cause she fought ridley in his 6-C form while the wave beam was in her possession. Literally every other 5-B suit for her is based on her after she passed the chozo test. Until you can show me proof that she doesn't get the wave beam until after the test, the wave beam should and will stay in her 6-C tier.

I'm still confused then. What determines why Samus gets what equipment for a particular Key? When Samus acquires a power up doesn't matter, and only when she defeats a particular boss does? I've been under the assumption that what power ups Samus gets along with a particular suit is determined by whether or not she gets a particular power up before she gets her suit upgrade, since suit upgrades are a way to mark your progression through each game.

Of course Samus doesn't get the Wave Beam after the Ruins Test, that's not what I was questioning. Why is that a determining factor?

Then again, even if you count Samus getting the Wave Beam in Zero Mission, that's the one time, I don't think she's gotten the Wave Beam before acquiring the Varia suit upgrade. Not sure if getting an upgrade in a particular suit only once counts as being in the Key... now that I think about it, Samus doesn't get Beam Burst in Samus Returns until after Varia, in the same place she gets Grapple Beam.

In a way I'm not sure why I'm still doing this. Even if a change was made, no one reads that stuff except nerds like me. Can anyone count how many times someone made a match up with Samus in it without looking at her page first? I'd say it's happened one too many times.

 

[SomebodyData]

Really? I remember getting Beam Burst first?

No one ever reads her page. Its a shame I'll admit, but at least its not on us.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

No one ever reads her page. Its a shame I'll admit, but at least its not on us.

You didn't read? I've been waiting for something like this ALL day.

 

[SomebodyData]

Didn't read this thread or her page?

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Didn't read this thread or her page?

That was a joke, but either is equally posible.

 

[SomebodyData]

ok lol

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Speaking of the manga, any idea where people can read Samus and Joey? The manga/comics section of the Metroid Database is still not up yet so finding some other source in case someone needs to bring it up would be a good idea since Google hasn't found anything useful.


Also Theglassman12, sorry this took so long. No hard feelings?

 

[Theglassman12]

none whatsoever.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Samus does get the Wave Beam in the Metroid 2002 Manga; I'm positive it should remain with her 6-C key considering manga tends to be more story focused them the games do.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Where's the Speed Booster? I looked through Samus' standard arsenal and I can't find it. I think the only time she got the Speed Booster in Basic Power Suit was in Zero Mission as a reward from defeating Kraid. I don't remember Samus having it before Varia besides technically S&J. I'd vote to put Speed Booster with Varia/Gravity since Samus only got Speed Booster before Varia once in the games, but that's just me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basic Fusion Suit has Speed Booster, and that canonically her 2nd weakest suit, so I don't have too much of a problem with Speed booster being in her 6-C key. She also had the speed booster in Samus and Joey before Varia; that's how she out flew her own ship, but we consider than an outlier for the time being.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Basic Fusion Suit has Speed Booster.

I knew I was forgetting something. Fusion Suit no longer has a Key anymore, would the regular, blue Fusion Suit count as 6-C/Basic Power Suit Samus?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fusion Suit is more like 7-C scaling from Zero Suit Samus and the X-Zebians. But considering her 6-C key has gotten the speed booster twice before, I still from Zero Mission and S&J, I still think it should remain. But yeah, neither Fusion nor Zero Suit have keys due to those being weaker and less haxed.

Also, we do sort of tend to accept semi-composite characters; as long as we only combined canon appearances. For example, her 5-B key still has all the Samus Returns abilities, but we still stack Ice Beam with the rest of her beam power ups. The only reason Ice Beam wasn't stacked in that game was because they tested the Beta versions with it stacked and found all the Metroids; including the Queen, to be Glass Joe punching bags.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Also, we do sort of tend to accept semi-composite characters; as long as we only combined canon appearances. For example, her 5-B key still has all the Samus Returns abilities, but we still stack Ice Beam with the rest of her beam power ups. The only reason Ice Beam wasn't stacked in that game was because they tested the Beta versions with it stacked and found all the Metroids; including the Queen, to be Glass Joe punching bags.

I figured the only reason the Ice Beam couldn't be stacked in MSR was because it would make the game too damn easy (enemies and bosses still hit a bit too hard at times), but that doesn't change the fact that it's a thing that Samus can do since she's done it plenty of times. That and I really like the Ice Beam, very underrated from a gameplay perspective (just look at Fusion and it's story), but being unable to one shot kill anymore can make people understandably grouchy.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Accursed Well that's the beauty of the ice beam, being one of the most broken ice based attacks here right next to absolute zero.