Warcraft Tier Revision

[Anderson2003]

Every Warcraft thread has "Unknown" tiers and I decided to create this in an attempt to fit them into tiers and even after seeing complete ignorance on the powers of each Warcraft character.

Archimonde is a planet buster. This is very important to point out, Archimonde's plan wasn't to destroy Draenor it was to corrupt it, but if he were to attack Draenor with his full strength, he would destroy it as he is far superior to guys like Mannoroth who are Moon busters.

Kil'Jaeden is above Archimonde and he is also a Planet Buster. Maybe Planet Buster +. He is considered far superior to Archimonde and shows great intelligence other than just sheer power alone. He also planned on backstabbing Sargeras who is the supreme creature of WoW currently.

Deathwing is superior to Archimonde and is on the same level as Kil'Jaeden. He easily defeated all Dragon Aspects, who are equivalent or similar to Thanos' Infinity Gems in power ( Time, Soul is kinda similar to Life, etc. ) and was shown to be almost untouchable before being weakened by the Dragon Soul, the only artifact that could defeat him. He is infinitely stronger than Thrall, like the ones above him.

Thrall is a Multi-Continent buster as he hurt Archimonde. He is also even with the likes of Grom Hellscream, who one shotted Mannoroth, a Moon Buster. Thrall became even more powerful later as he got the powers of the Earth Dragon Aspect and became a Shaman, becoming kinda around the level of the Dragon Aspects. I don't believe this Thrall to be superior to Malfurion, however.

Malfurion is the greatest Druid to ever exist. He is shown to be superior or on the same level as Illidan, who rivals Death Knight Arthas that has his own set of feats. Malfurion is also in constant relation to the Emerald Dream, a alternate version of Draenor. I don't know a lot about Malfurion in specific,but he is superior to Thrall as well.

Illidan himself is incredibly powerful with magic and physical abilities. He stalemated with Death Knight Arthas in their first encounter and was later defeated by him. Illidan has control of many artifacts that give him great power, such as the Skull of Gul'Dan that has incredible Warlock capabilities. He is on the same level as Malfurion.

Jaina is one of the greatest mages along with Kael'Thas, who is even with her. She rivals Thrall in power.

Death Knight Arthas is by far the strongest and most sucessful Death Knight in Warcraft history. He defeated Uther, one of the greatest Paladins and even with Tirion Fordring, he defeated Illidan who is even with Malfurion, he defeated Kael'Thas who is even with Jaina and he defeated the Mage Antonidas who was Jaina's mentor. He is incredibly fierce with magic and physical abilities alike. He is by far superior to Thrall and even Malfurion and is already Multi-Continental + or higher.

Lich King Arthas is tons of times superior to his Death Knight self and is a rival to Deathwing's power. In fact, the Lich King entity was created to dominate Azeroth for the Burning Legion. However, his power rivals Kil'Jaeden's and he is shown to be incredibly powerful. Arthas easily defeats the heroes of Azeroth and Tirion Fordring, a rival to Uther, in the Icecrown Citadel raid, killing every hero with one single move when he fought seriously, only being defeated when Tirion destroyed Frostmourne, one of his weaknesses, as that is one of the only things that manages to kill him. He is close to Deathwing and Kil'Jaeden in power.

There are many others I could mention, but I decided to only talk about the most relevant of the characters in Warcraft. I may add others as time goes on.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

>Archimonde is a planet buster. This is very important to point out, Archimonde's plan wasn't to destroy Draenor it was to corrupt it, but if he were to attack Draenor with his full strength, he would destroy it as he is far superior to guys like Mannoroth who are Moon busters.

Being superior to a Moon level character doesnt automatically make you Planet level, and what makes Mannoroth Moon level?

>Thrall is a Multi-Continent buster as he hurt Archimonde. He is also even with the likes of Grom Hellscream, who one shotted Mannoroth, a Moon Buster. Thrall became even more powerful later as he got the powers of the Earth Dragon Aspect and became a Shaman, becoming kinda around the level of the Dragon Aspects. I don't believe this Thrall to be superior to Malfurion, however.

He's Multi-Continent level for huring a Planet level character? Thats...not how it works, that would make him Planet level. And again, what makes Mannoroth Moon level?

 

[Anderson2003]

Well, Thrall being a Planet level character is exageration. Attack potency isn't necessarily durability, a huge example is DBZ, where Saiyan Saga Vegeta was able to bust planets and yet was hurt by a sword. But I understand what you are trying to say and if he truly is Planet level, then Deathwing, Archimonde, Lich King and Kil'Jaeden are far above that level as in MANY MANY times above Planet level.

I scale Mannoroth at moon level due to his feats. I may be wrong and he may be higher or lower. He was a rival to Cenarius, who was Malfurion's master and a great druid as well. He was capable of easily matching the Orc Army when they tried to invade the Elf lands, only being matched after Grom drank Mannoroth's blood again and defeated him. Mannoroth's Blood makes Orcs tons of times stronger with a good example being Grom, who by drinking his blood twice got to his level. Mannoroth is also the second-in-command to Archimonde, being stronger than anyone other than Archimonde in his fraction of the Burning Legion. Mannoroth could be compared to Gul'Dan, who is far above Jaina and comparable to Khadgar and Medivh, the Guardians and two of the strongest mortal magical beings in history, Medivh especially since he was corrupted by Sargeras and feared even by Deathwing.

I guess that explains it, but help would be accepted with scaling them.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Thrall should be Multi-Continent level (with the Dragon soul) for being able to kill Deathwing.

Deathwing is Multi-Continent level for being able to shatter continents in his wake.

 

[Anderson2003]

Deathwing is above Multi-Continent level, since he shattered th continents with no effort at all.

Thrall's power didn't influence in Deathwing's death, only the Dragon Soul's since it is an artifact of great power. Basically, picture Spider-Man with the IG killing Thanos.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

iirc Vegeta being cut by a sword is seen as PIS, but yes being able to destroy a planet doesnt necessarily mean Planet level durability. What im trying to say is that if he's stronger than a Moon level character but doesnt have any feats other than just being stronger than him by an unknown level that would just make him At least Moon level.

Again, what feats would those be? This is a good amount of information but there isnt anything above Multi-Continent level here scaling from Deathwing, who has apparently shattered continents. Im trying to help but your arguments need a little bit more...solid reasoning, if you get what i mean, youve essentially got.

• Archimonde: Planet level for being stronger than a Moon level character (Without an actual Moon level feat)

• Kil'Jaeden: Planet level for being stronger than Archimonde

• Deathwing: Planet level for being stronger than Archimonde, comparable to Kil'Jaeden, stronger than Thrall, and defeating the Dragon Aspects (How strong are the aspects again?)

• Thrall: Multi-Continent level for hurting a Planet level character (Which would make him Planet level) and being comparable to Grom who oneshotted a Moon level character, but weaker than Malfurion

• Malfurion: Muti-Continent level for being comparable to Illidian and superior to Thrall

• Illidan: Multi-Continent level for stalemating Death Knight Arthas and being comparable to Malfurion

• Jaina is one of the greatest mages along with Kael'Thas, who is even with her. She rivals Thrall in power.

• Death Knight Arthas: Multi-Continent level for defeating Illidan, Kael'Thas, and the Mage Antonidas and for being superior to Thrall and Malfurion

• Lich King Arthas: Planet level for being superior to his Death Knight self and rivaling Deathwing and Kil'Jaeden

The problem here is you have characters being Planet level scaling from Mannoroth, who doesnt have a solid Moon level feat (Unless i'm missing something), and Multi-Continent level characters scaling from harming a Planet level character. You see the issue here? You'd need a good Moon level feat for the stronger characters' stats to be justified.

 

[Anderson2003]

I scaled him Moon level not because he has a Moon level feat but because he is superior to Multi-Continent Level+ beings such as Gul'Dan but inferior to Planet Busters such as Archimonde. Also, that isn't the only feat that I have for Archimonde being planet buster. He is stated many times to be so in-game, but there is also an attack of which directly says it is meant to destroy Draenor called Rain of Chaos: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=182225/rain-of-chaos

Also, Murmur is a planet buster and there are many characters above him to compare, like Ragnaros.

Edit: The Dragon Aspects are similar in power to Archimonde. They are inferior to Deathwing and they're power is similar to the Infinity Gems in a sense. Each one of them represents something ( Magic, Time, Life and the Emerald Realm ) and they have great control out of them. Alexstrasza, the Life dragon, is the most powerful of them and was a rival to Deathwing, however was still inferior. A important fact is that, as an example, Nozdormu, the time one, can make you old and decadent easily so they aren't to be understimated and are planet level as well.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hmm, i see...the only problem is Multi-Continent level is a fairly large tier, so being superior to a Multi-Continent level character wouldnt necessarily make you Moon level (See Ragyō Kiryüi as an example)

Yeah, Rain of Chaos was what originally put him at Planet level but it was removed for being too vague and not being a single attack but a series of weaker consecutive attacks, which would result in a lower rating.

If you dont mind, may i see Murmur's Planet busting feat?

Alright, so they scale to Archimonde

I dont doubt that WoW i powerful, but what i think you should do is compile a list of feats, link them here so everyone can see and analyze them, and find feats that can be calculated so they can have a more solid rating.

 

[Anderson2003]

Thing is, there is more info about WoW then words in the Bible. I can't just know every feat, and if I did it would be incredibly hard to remember each and everyone of them about each and everyone character. I'd say one of the only media with equivalent lore depth other than WoW is Lord of the Rings.

Murmur is stated to be able to destroy worlds with whispers as he is the essence of sound. It's stated in The Codex of Blood, a book about Murmur and his lore. I quote:

"Know only as Murmur, it was the essence of sound. And to hear it speak was to know death eternal! Existing only for chaos, it's slightest whisper meant the destruction of whole worlds!"

I also need to point out that statements like these in books and statements are quite accurate and important to WoW in general, so usually they are mostly concrete and factual even when the RPG thing of adding doubt, legend and myth is added.

For more info, check here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/The_Codex_of_Blood

Indeed, the Mannoroth point is a really good one, in fact. But he is above Thrall in Attack Potency, so, taking your point into consideration, we can agree to make him at the very least MultiContinent + level, since yes, WoW feats are a bit vague.

If you guys need feats, I suggest looking into the wiki. I am quite lore knowledgable about WoW but I don't know everything. So, for starters, check these:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Mannoroth

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Archimonde

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Kil%27jaede

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Sargeras

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Arthas_Menethil

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Thrall

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Deathwing

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Aspects

 

[Aparajita]

Murmur destroyed a planet simply by yawning.

From his dungeon journal

"In the beginning"... "So far away"... such phrases cannot begin to describe this elemental's origin. Its existence heralds pure destruction. Worlds shatter and the pieces scatter at its whim. Only the truly mad would think to summon it. Perhaps there is yet time to banish Murmur before it fully enters Outland.

From the book written on him in game.

"Long ago, in a dimension of the cosmos unfathomable to mortal minds, there was born - if such a term can be used for it - a being of such unbelievable power that its very entrance into existence shattered all reality around it.

Known only as Murmur, it was the essence of sound. And to hear it speak was to know death eternal.

Existing only for chaos, its slightest whisper meant the destruction of whole worlds!"


Murmur is vastly below the Legion in Strength.


Archimonde's Planet Destruction was only used as a Reign of Chaos style attack because Archimonde was busy fighting us. He had the power to consume the essence of the Well of Eternity (as the World Tree).

This World Tree had enough energy that the Titans believed Azeroth (the planet) would eventually have the power to defeat corrupted (Galaxy+) Sargareas.

Kil'jaeden was far superior to Archimonde.

Thrall managed to hurt Archimonde.

Thrall with his most powerful attack https://youtu.be/luuUE0x7-TY?t=60 was a scratch on Mannoroth but was able to https://youtu.be/099P8xBxM1A?t=7429 hurt (slightly annoy) Archimonde.


Nozdormu was able to shatter the timeline and create his own "End of the World" which is implied to be the entire world after Deathwing's "victory", he was simply a single aspect, Archimonde/Sargeras were both superior to them as they had to combine all of their power (into the Dragon Soul) to fight the Legion.

 

[Anderson2003]

Well, this guy says it pretty well.

Also, Grom Hellscream is superior or equal to Thrall, since he one shotted Mannoroth twice ( Once in WC3 in our timeline and later in Warlords of Draenor, though he died in WC3 in Mannoroth's explosion and was saved in WoD by his son, Garrosh ). And Gul'Dan defeated Grom quite easily, so that might indicate Gul'Dan is actually superior in comparison to Mannoroth through ABC logic.

Also, to emphasize Sargeras strength, he is infinitely powerful. Even without a physical body, he tricked Gul'Dan, the strongest mortal Warlock into his death. He was also the champion of the Titans, the creator of the worlds and the most powerful beings in WoW lore. As in, from all the Titans, the people who could blink and destroy universes, he was the one guy above them all. He even manipulated one of the most powerful mortal beings in the history of Draenor, Medivh, into working for him. That, is how badass Sargeras is.

 

[Anderson2003]

I think the Attack Potency of WoW characters has been made pretty clear. Now, we need to expand to speed. I don't remember any reliable feats to scale, but I'd think it's Hypersonic+ or FTL.

If anyone has substantial feats or help in relation to this, it's accepted. I'll proceed to do my research now.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ok, it look like Aparjita knows what he's talking about so he can likely help you with this, and when ThePerpetual gets back i'd message him as well, iirc he was somewhat knowledgeable on the verse as well.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, Deathwing flew from Blackrock Moountain to Stormwind in less than a minute, that's could be a speed feat if you can find a distance between the two

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I'm in favor

 

[Aparajita]

Update:

Gul'dan rose an island from the Depths of the Ocean.

Deathwing ripped a hole from the center of Azeroth (Deepholm)

Ragnaros incinerated half of the Eastern Kingdoms just by emerging.

Unknown Eredar are stated as destroying planets in the past (Unnamed, probably Archimonde/Kil'jaeden since they're effortless above most Eredar).

Nepluton has the power over all of the oceans.

Archimonde destroyed a city for ***** and giggles.

The Player reacts to Cloud-to-Ground Lightning in the Wuushalay fight in Zul'Gurub.


The Deathwing feat is no calculatable without huge speculations as there's no real way to judge how big Azeroth is.

For example, in game, the total square miles is 118 for walkable distances. This puts from Darnassaus (one side of the map) to Stormwind (other side) at 11k miles. Not much.

However, Hammerfall, an area a like... 30th of the size of Stormwind, took a group 5 weeks in Lore to travel.

A comparison. Let's say England. At England's widest point (Cornwall to Kent) you'd struggle to make that Journey last 5 weeks even on foot. So, one of the smallest places in Azeroth (Hammerfell) took more time to cross than the widest point in England, which is 292 miles.


Reaction Speed: Thrall reacts to Cloud-To-Ground Lightning, as does other main characters, falling stars, meteror showers, and the like.

Movement Speed: Main Characters are scalable to Illidan who flew above the clouds in like, 3 seconds in the BC trailer.

So, here's my guess without any calculations.


Sargeras: Galaxy (defeated the Pantheon with absolute ease) to Universal+ (Far superior than Nozdormu who shattered the Timeline).

Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden: Planet Level (Numerous statements state that the strongest Eredar can destroy planets. Archimonde threatened to destroy Draenor, Kil'jaeden was plotting to use the World Tree's power to challenge Sargeras.

Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Demon-Form Illidan: Ranging between Multi-Cont to Moon level. At the lowest, they're superior to the Aspects, who Deathwing destroyed Azeroth's contients and Nepulton (comparable if weaker than Deathwing) contols all of the Oceans.

Thrall and rest of main protagonists, Arthas, Normal Illidan: Multi-Cont at their peaks, comparable to Thrall who managed to annoy Archimonde and Scratch Mannoroth and stronger than Deathwing at their peaks. Thrall, as the Aspect of Earth, should be comparable to base Deathwing pre-corruption, who still safeguarded and controlled and helped shape the Contients of Azeroth.


Speeds: Ranging between Supersonic to MHS reaction speeds, faster than players who react to guns, Sylvanas dodged Greymane's pistol with utter ease, several weapons fire literal light (magic), Cloud to Ground Lightning, Falling Stars and Meterors.

Movement Speed: No idea. Faster than Horses?

 

[Anderson2003]

To be fair, Demon Illidan also lost against DK Arthas in their 1v1 when Illidan fought Arthas in near what would later become the Icecrown Citadel when Illidan attempted to destroy the Frozen Throne. So DK Arthas should be around their level too with Lich King being around Kil'Jaeden's.

Movement Speed is definitely faster than horses. Especially since many, many characters have teleportation and skills that make them go even faster. Warriors have some types of charges, Mages can teleport and the list goes on. So yeah, I believe it is Hypersonic+, not necessarily MHS.

 

[Aparajita]

To be fair, Demon Illidan also lost against DK Arthas in their 1v1 when Illidan fought Arthas in near what would later become the Icecrown Citadel when Illidan attempted to destroy the Frozen Throne. So DK Arthas should be around their level too with Lich King being around Kil'Jaeden's.

I would say that is Character Induced Stupidity. Illidan states when he fights Tichondrius that he has "become more powerful than any of Archimonde's lieutenants." and Death Knight Arthas fights Illidan in Felwood with the two of them saying. "We could go on fighting like this forever."

What this video tells me is that

A: Arthas won his fight at Icecrown due to Illidan doubting Arthas' skills and because of overconfidence.

and B: Post-Lich King Arthas is comparable to the Aspects as Alexstraza could not directly counter Arthas' powers, despite her power being Life and his being Death.

 

[Aparajita]

As for the movement speed, we don't include teleportation as movement. Charge allows Warriors to run 8-25 yards in 2 seconds.

At the max range, as this Goblin Warrior was, 25 yards in two seconds.

Small Calculation, 12.5 yards in 1 second translates to 22.86 m/s or Superhuman.


Edit: To my knowledge, with the exception of things like Blink, Shadowstep, and the like, there aren't any movement speed feats, except moving to avoid things like lightning strikes and cannons.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

? Why double it? 25 yards in two seconds would only be 12.5 yards per second, or 22.86 m/s, Superhuman

 

[Aparajita]

? Why double it? 25 yards in two seconds would only be 12.5 yards per second, or 22.86 m/s, SuperHuman

Realized it after i wrote it but didn't edit it XD.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Why do you think Illidan underestimated Arthas? He was fighting for his life there because failing Kil'jaeden again would mean death, and that's the best possible scenario. Arthas was, at that point, tired after fighting Kael'thas and weaker since Ner'zhul was losing power.

 

[Aparajita]

Why do you think Illidan underestimated Arthas? He was fighting for his life there because failing Kil'jaeden again would mean death, and that's the best possible scenario. Arthas was, at that point, tired after fighting Kael'thas and weaker since Ner'zhul was losing power.

Because he had squared against Arthas before and was evenly matched. After obtaining the Skull, Illidan steamrolled through all of his enemies, including Magtheridon.

There's no reason to assume that Arthas was the equal to Illidan.

That's implying that Arthas, pre-Lich King, is comparable to Tichondrius and the other strongest servants of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden.


And Exactly. There is absolutely *no way* that Kael'thas, pre-empowerment, base Kael'thas, is comparable to Demon Illidan.

So either Illidan overestimated Arthas (most likely scenario), Arthas got lucky (possible) or plot-induced stupidity (also possible), but considering that WoW is generally pretty good about power scales and whatnot, i doubt it.

 

[Anderson2003]

Aparajita, Demon Illidan is above Kael'Thas but he isn't as strong as you put him out to be.

Arthas wasn't equal to Illidan. In their first combat, as you mentioned, both stale mated. In their other fight, Arthas won. So Arthas is in fact superior to Illidan as a Death Knight.

"That's implying that Arthas, pre-Lich King, is comparable to Tichondrius and the other strongest servants of Archimonde and Kil'jaeden." They aren't the strongest servants of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, especifically Archimonde. In fact, who is mentioned to be the strongest servant of Archimonde is Mannoroth, who was one shotted by Grom. Tichondrius and these ones you call strong are comparable to Mal'Gannis, who Arthas killed when he first got Frostmourne.

Illidan DIDN'T understimate Arthas. That comes from a book that tells the story of Arthas, and like every other book, take it with a grain of salt because it's from these books that I see most mentions that contradict to the main story ( Sylvanas is a really good example ). Also, if Illidan did understimate Arthas, he wouldn't have taken the defeat so badly. Unless Illidan is an idiot ( which he may be, considering some of his decisions ) he would've known he wasn't defeated due to the outright merit and power of Arthas, and due to his own arrogance, but no. According to Malfurion, every day he remembered his impossible defeat against Arthas and the humiliating frustration of being SURPASSED leading him to his ultimate insanity at WoW: BC.

In fact, Illidan is so arrogant and later becomes so disturbed and distant from reality that he forgets his defeat against Arthas, changing his memory from being defeated outright by Arthas. In fact, it's pretty much acknowledged that DK Arthas > Demon Illidan even by WoW players. I remember doing my research on this a long time ago and everywhere I went Illidan was inferior to both DK Arthas and LK Arthas in general. Also, Illidan is defeated by the heroes of Warcraft, while Arthas as the Lich King easily kills them all with Fury of Frostmourne before Frostmourne being broken and being defeated by indirect purposes.

EDIT: Also, we see many times the defeat of Illidan and most of them show Illidan charging at full strength agaist Arthas and Arthas easily countering Illidan's moves. First we have the cutscene from WC3, then we play as Arthas and defeat Illidan in WotLK and once again we see Arthas countering Illidan and defeating him in Cataclysm in a flashback.

No one says it better than Malfurion, Illidan's rival/superior (?) himself:


"[...] I'm afraid that the loss to Arthas proved to be his breaking point. Madness has embraced him, Remulos. He replays the event a thousand times per day, but in his mind, he is the victor and Arthas is utterly defeated. He is far too gone, my friend. [...]"

 

[Aparajita]

No one is denying that Lich King Arthas is superior to Demon Form Illidan.

My problem is saying outright that Death Knight Arthas is comparable to Mannoroth, because he's not. You're implying that DK Arthas is comparable to Cenarius, when he's not. Lich King Arthas is above Cenarius by extension of being stronger than Alexstraza (and Ysera).

Death Knight Arthas struggled against Uther and was constantly harrassed by Sylvanas throughout the campaign against the Elves, let alone Arthas' fight with Kael'Thas in Northrend.

Arthas nearly lost to Kael in Northrend in their 1-on-1 battle.


Here is, in my opinion, where it should go.


Sargeras: Galaxy+ (Likely far higher), Curbstomped the Pantheon with utter ease, the Pantheon is capable of forging the universe over time and utterly superior to Aman'thul who empowered Nozdormu, who shattered the timeline, possibly Universal+

Pantheon: Solar System+ (Casually assisted in the creation of the Universe over an unknown timeframe, this should be considered their strongest feat).

Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden: Planet Level (The strongest Eredar by a large margin, several sources cite Eredar as being able to destroy planets.

Murmur: Planet Level (Casually destroys Planets with a whisper).

Mannoroth/Lich King Arthas/Azshara/Lords of the Legion on scale to Mannoroth: Moon Level (Above the Aspects by a considerable margin, but considered insignificant to Archimonde).

Demon Form Illidan/Thrall/Other Peak Characters/DK Arthas: Multi-Cont (In their strongest forms, they're all comparable to Thrall, who replaces Neltharion as the Aspect of Earth and should be comparable to pre-corruption Neltharion, who was given "dominion over the forces of the Earth")

Nozdormu: Unknown, possibly 2-C via hax unsuitable for combat (shattered the Timeline and altered the future, although it's uncertain how large of a "future" he created).


Now please, when considering how Warcraft works in general, there is obvious cases of game mechanics, plot induced stupidity, and character induced stupidity, such as the fight between Thrall and Garrosh.

Thrall is beyond Garrosh in terms of power, yet loses once, stalemates once, and wins once.

Thrall could have, going all out, destroyed Garrosh on all three of the fights.

 

[Anderson2003]

First, Mannoroth was one shotted by Grom twice. Unless you believe Grom to be superior to DK Arthas which he isn't, then this statement makes zero sense. Cenarius was also defeated by Grom after he drank the blood of Mannoroth again, not really a feat since Cenarius has been surpassed by Malfurion according to him if I recall.

"Death Knight Arthas struggled against Uther and was constantly harrassed by Sylvanas throughout the campaign against the Elves, let alone Arthas' fight with Kael'Thas in Northrend.

Arthas nearly lost to Kael in Northrend in their 1-on-1 battle."

Nice try to understimate Arthas. Both these statements are from books, but I'll ignore that fact and take them as the absolute truth.

Death Knight Arthas didn't struggle against Uther. He fought with him and came out on top acknowledging Uther's power if I recall. That isn't struggling. Uther couldn't defeat Arthas and there's even a mention that states that Arthas had "dirty tactics" that Uther refused to use, so even if we assume Arthas was struggling, he would've still won by sheer dirtiness acording to logic.

Arthas being "harassed" by Sylvanas never happened. In fact, Sylvanas' only hope of stopping Arthas was fleeing and gaining time with Guerilla tactics making Arthas have to go around it. Sylvanas was killed in ONE BLOW according to the game, which is basically Lucas Canon to Warcraft ( unless retconned ). Her harass was nothing more than a fly dodging a predator. Eventually, even if the fly desperately manages to escape for a while, it will go down.

In the game, in fact, Arthas never fights Kael'Thas 1v1. Arthas fights against Kael'Thas and his forces, along with Lady Vashj, only with the help of the Scourge and shakes them off. In the book, Arthas fights "evenly" with a Blood Lusted Kael ( he was pissed over Arthas and Jaina's relation and even more vengeful due to Sunwell having been slaughtered ) and even still, as soon as Arthas adapted himself, he beat Kael and proceeded to beat Illidan. Sometimes it seems you forget the FACTS that Arthas DID defeat Illidan. It's not like the result ISN'T there.

In fact, I decided to copy this part of the book here, for you to read once again:

"But Arthas was the stronger in armed combat; stronger, with the stronger sword, despite Kael's gloating about how Felo'melorn was reforged. Slowly, inexorably, as Arthas knew must happen, Frostmourne descended toward Kael'thas's bare throat. '…she hates you,' Kael whispered. Arthas cried out, fury blurring his vision for a moment, and shoved down with all his strength. Into the snow and frozen earth. Kael'thas was gone."

I suggest you read the book again or search for a pdf file to check on it. Arthas beat him actually rather easily once adapted.

I always wondered this, in fact. People tend to become annoyed at result of fights in comics like Wolverine vs Hulk but if Wolverine has BEATEN the Hulk more than once and proved he is capable of doing so, THEN HE IS CAPABLE OF DOING SO. If plot or writer induces stupidity, it's explainable. But once this coincidence becomes a pattern, there is no excuse.

So, BIAS appart, it goes kinda like this:

Sargeras is basically limitless. He could blink and destroy the universe for all we know. (Galaxy+ minimum )

Pantheon is weaker than Sargeras. A good comparison is Sargeras being TOAA and Pantheon being The Living Tribunal. ( Soler System+ minimum )

Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are far superior than Eredar, who are capable of destroying planets. In comparison to Murmur and Ragnaros, they are beasts, so I actually decided to give them a slight buff of Dwarf Star Level to Star Level. I may change my mind on this, though. Deathwing is around here, also.

Murmur and Ragnaros and such are Planet Level. Ragnaros, if I recall, is far stronger than Murmur, who is stated to destroy planes with whispers, but I decided to leave them at the same tier at Planet Level.

Lich King Arthas is comparable to Archimonde and Deathwing, and as such could be at the same tier.

The Dragon Aspects are inferior to Deathwing but far superior to Mannoroth, who was a rival to Cenarius. As such, Archimonde tier for them as well. Maybe superior to Archimonde yet weaker than Kil'Jaeden. Nozdormu is a good example.

Mannoroth is scaled at moon level along with others such as Mal'Gannis, Tichondrius and similar. In fact, they may be weaker due to Grom, Arthas and Illidan defeating them.

DK Arthas, Skull of Gul'Dan Illidan, Thrall, Malfurion, Jaina and others could be scaled at Multi-Continental, but I do believe they are superior to Mannoroth and others like him so it's hard to put them where they belong. Grom did one shot Mannoroth twice and defeat Cenarius, his rival which would lead me to believe they are far stronger than we give them credit. So, I'll leave them at that level for now ( Moon level ) but I could be wrong and keep them at MultiContinent Level.

Garrosh, since you mentioned him, should be even with Grom, but Grom has way better feats and was even shown to be far superior to Thrall. Thrall was only ever defeated against Garrosh for not going all out on him ( mostly ) and when he showed him a bit of the power he had from being a Earth Aspect and now a Shaman, Garrosh was easily defeated and killed in combat. It is also good to note that Garrosh fought Cairne Bloodhoof and truly struggled against him until he got the advantage and striked Cairne, killing him due to his poisoned weapon ( a plot planned by a female orc which name fails to come to mind ).

As a mention I'd like to include, Gul'Dan lifted an island and was shown great power to easily defeat Grom Hellscream, summon Archimonde and many other incredible feats which leads me to believe he is one of the strongest mortals to have ever lived along with Medivh. That would mean he is above Mannoroth.

 

[Aparajita]

We're going around in circles.

What we need is solid evidence to begin the tiering process and placement.

The strongest feats we have is:

Unknown Eredar destroys planets, this might not even be usable. If it is, then we can place the strongest of them (Archimonde/Kil'jaeden) at planet level, Archimonde was going to destroy Draenor, Kil'jaeden believes himself able to fight Sargeras if he's amped by the World Tree.

Nozdormu shattered the timeline (hax unusable for combat, not scalable to anyone).

Nepluton controls the seas, Deathwing has a contiential to multi-contential feat, Al'Akair controls all of the winds.

Murmur destroys planets with a whisper.

 

[Aparajita]

Also, as a side note, Ner'zhul was afraid that Arthas would lose against Illidan, so he gave him "all the power he could spare." to Arthas to allow him to fight.

Regular Arthas DK is not superior to Demon Form Illidan. He was greatly empowered by Ner'zhul, just as Kil'jaeden was empowering Illidan via the Orb of Kil'jaeden.


My reasoning for thinking that Illidan underestimated Arthas: Arthas was constantly being weakened and showed that throughout the campaign, in front of Illidan and Kael in their cutscenes (that's just in game, not including the books).

Illidan has been greatly empowered since their first meeting in Felwood, twice.

Once by consuming the Skull of Gul'dan, and secondly by obtaining the Orb of Kil'jaeden.

So Illidan had no reason to consider that Arthas was still on his level.


Regardless if you agree or disagree to this, we need to ignore this topic and move on to finding usable feats.

 

[Anderson2003]

Sargeras is the ultimate being of WoW, so if Kil'Jaeden planned to fight him, unless the World Tree is way more haxed then mentioned, he should be far above where he is right now. I do believe them to be above planet level.

Nozdormu can control time similar to Palkia so that's something.

Deathwing has multi-continental feat effortlessly, Thrall with the Dragon Soul could hurt and kill him. That is saying something.

Murmur destroys planets with whispers ( once again, effortlessly ).

Ragnaros is supposedly above Murmur and destroyed a huge area full of mountains and things a like due to yawning ( once again, effortlessly┬▓ )

Medivh was feared by Deathwing himself, was shown to be able to see the future (?) and had a portion of the power of Sargeras, being superior or even with Gul'Dan. Is also basically the strongest mortal to have lived.

Khadgar along with Anduin and Garona defeats SargeDivh and takes his place as the guardian, later becoming at a similar level as Medivh was.

Jaina is a magical rival to Khadgar, and so is Kael'Thas, however both are under them.

DK Arthas, Skull of Gul'Dan Illidan and Malfurion are difficult to place, but due to other comparisons, we can pretty much put them around Medivh or higher. In fact, most probably higher.

Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Mal'Gannis and others are supposed to be Moon level but are extreme jobbers.

Grom one shotted Mannoroth twice. If we are to take this into question, that would mean Grom is above Mannoroth's durability, which is still unspecificed, but if we are to jump to conclusions, he would be Moon+ level.

Alexstrasza was a rival to Deathwing and defeated him when he was the Earth Aspect. After Deathwing became evil and maddened, Alexstrasza and the other aspects were curbstomped even when united against him, and all 4 are extremely powerful and comparable to Archimonde.

Lich King Arthas is comparable to Deathwing and Kil'Jaeden, so he is around that level too. Was stated in the WoW forums ( and these are the type of nerd that breath WoW ) that if he were to use all the power of the Lich King, he would've risen is hand and it would all be over.

Sylvanas was just annoyance even to DK Arthas and due to her negative usefulness I decided to scale her at Leeroy Jenkins- level ( joke ). Seriously though, she is under DK Arthas and the best feat she has is being smart enough NOT to fight Lich King Arthas.

Kael'Thas was a rival to Jaina. so yeah. Quite straight forward.

Gul'Dan is above Kael'Thas and Jaina by a wide margin and is even and scalable to Medivh and Khadgar. He also raped Grom who one shotted Mannoroth, killed Varian Wrynn and summoned Archimonde. Seriously, this dude is powerful.

The Old Gods are inferior to the Titans in the level that the strongest of them was curbstomped by a Titan. Scale them as you wish.

 

[Aparajita]

My only issue with this is where we learn that Ragnaros is stronger than Murmur?

 

[Anderson2003]

Well, lore does state that Ragnaros is a servant of the Old Gods ( powerful beings ) and that he fought and was defeated by Titans ( more powerful beings ). Ragnaros easily defeated Thunderaan ( prince of the Air Elementals ) and absorbed great part of his power and even this weakened Thunderaan is comparable to Murmur in-game.

Just as an example, I'll get their HP for comparison:

Rag:

Level	?? Elite
Health	1,099,230

Murmur:

Level	72 Elite
Health	424,350 - 572,872

Thunderaan:

Level	?? Elite
Health	333,100

Also, Ragnaros is way more relevant to the lore in general, has much more information for us to work with and is a way higher level boss in general.

For more about him, check here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Ragnaros

EDIT: In fact, Ragnaros, Al'Akir, Neptulon and Therazane are the Elemental Lords and the strongest of all "lords". Murmur is even considered a lesser lord in the wiki.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_Lord

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not knowledgeable enough to be of any help, but have you come to an agreement regarding what needs to be done?

 

[Anderson2003]

Almost. We are working on AP and Speed. Speed is at least Massively Hypersonic+ ( Lightning, Meteros and such being dodged ) and AP is mentioned for each character ( however we might need to make some changes ). We still need to work on Durability, Lifting Strength and Striking Strength and that will be it, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I have found and edited a map of Azeroth. Note that Shadowforge City is located in Blackrock Mountain.

Hopefully this is enough for a possible calculation? If so, I'll post this on the relevant thread.

 

[Man_from_Shadow]

Back at this again?

 

[Aparajita]

Well, 1500 kilometers in 2 minutes, that's 750 KM per minute, or 12500m/s.

Mach 16, or Hypersonic+

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Does this scale to anyone else? The other Dragon Aspects?

 

[Aparajita]

Does this scale to anyone else? The other Dragon Aspects?

The other aspects, shaman thrall which means everyone. Jaina comparable to Thrall and she's basically human.

 

[Aparajita]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...g's_Speed_Feat_(World_of_Warcraft:_Cataclysm)

Actually, it seems to be higher than i thought.