Warcraft Revision part 2

[Myriadofmemes]

I said 20 years, not 2 years, the date is retconned. If you don't know this than you haven't read the Chronicles and whether you like it or not that's the most central part of lore today. The sole purpose for the making of these books is to explain "what is and what isn't" to confused fans exactly like you. If you don't agree with the Chronicles than that's your problem entirely and no one elses.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

I literally stated that it has been changed from 2 years ago to 50 years ago on October the 20th. The only thing that your test has proven is that you're being way too emotional over this and wanking off your favourite franchise. And don't even think about editting your message. Everyone needs to see how you act. October 20th, look up the message. wtf dude?

To begin with, the point was that it was one of the things that you didn't know for your "just that puts him on planet level" statement to be accurate. Not whe it happened. how long it took to happen.

 

[Udlmaster]

Me <--- Nowhere has he stated that he disagrees with the Chronicles.

You<--- Ignoring the main point once again. Whining without putting any actual links to your sources.

 

[Udlmaster]

Notice how I debunked your last sentance with two sentances without literally whining and losing my temper on a -revision- forum, because last I checked, this isn't about either of us, it's about revisions and facts, to which you haven't been able to quote or show without saying: " It's stated" somewhere, but all my sources have been listed in post at the top of this revision.

 

[MasterOfArda]

This is going nowhere.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Sargeras: Able to cleave Planets. Has 3-B/High 3-B feats. Gets jailed.

Argus the Unmaker: Capable of Unmaking Creation (Which is a High 3-A/2-C feat btw). dies.

Void Lords: 100% likely to be taken from Lovecraft's Outer Gods, hence why they're likely 2-A/High 1-A if established as that. They're only envious to the Pantheon's power, cause they can't do shit in the Third Dimension (AKA, the Physical Universe), while the Pantheon can.

Void Titan: Stronger than the Pantheon, including Sargeras (Fel-powered). Likely to be 2-B (High 2-B/2-A if it's Azeroth. Maybe. It's unconfirmed. But, i'm going to guess this to be the best possible choice).

And, lastly, the Player Characters: We're going to defeat all of the Threats in the WoW verse anyway. So...let's just say...Unknown until we max out.

And, lastly, Murmur: 6-A. Why? Cause, his shit caused a LOT of damage to Draenor/Outland, when he was SUMMONED. With the current lore, I don't think he's strong enough to easily destroy Worlds with a Whisper. However, that doesn't mean he can't do MASSIVE damage to a Planet.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Did I do that with justice? Or Not? Cause, for Argus, and Sargeras, different Titans have different capabilites.

 

[Rakanadyo]

Speaking of player characters, I've wondered that, if we were ever to make profiles for them, would we have just one encompassing "Adventerers of Azeroth" or whatever title we choose, or one per class? Due to gameplay balance they're all equally tiered, but each has a variety of different powers and abilities.

 

[Udlmaster]

Adventurers or Heroes of Azeroth. Either or works.

 

[Udlmaster]

Sargeras: The Same.

Argus the Unmaker: I'm not all that sure about Argus the unmaker's power as of yet. I will have to have a look into it. Or when the raid is released.

Voidlords: Better feat, they're so powerful they cannot manifest their full beings into the Twisting Nether which is stated to be above all realities. (The WoW Multiverse)

Dark Titan: Unknown, no idea, It's more a "What if" being if anything and a "If you don't do this, then this is coming soon, bwah ha ha."

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Speaking of player characters, I've wondered that, if we were ever to make profiles for them, would we have just one encompassing "Adventerers of Azeroth" or whatever title we choose, or one per class? Due to gameplay balance they're all equally tiered, but each has a variety of different powers and abilities.

Lore Wise, there's only 1 Highlord of the SilverHand, who wields ALL 3 of his/her Class Artifacts. Same goes for the other classes.

There's only 1 chosen Hero for each class in Legion. 12 if you add them in total.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Sargeras: The Same.
Argus the Unmaker: I'm not all that sure about Argus the unmaker's power as of yet. I will have to have a look into it. Or when the raid is released.

Voidlords: Better feat, they're so powerful they cannot manifest their full beings into the Twisting Nether which is stated to be above all realities. (The WoW Multiverse)

Dark Titan: Unknown, no idea, It's more a "What if" being if anything and a "If you don't do this, then this is coming soon, bwah ha ha."

Argus the Unmaker has a feat called "The Unmaking of Creation". And it says "Argus ends creation, killing everything". It's a 15 second cast that the players must stop in order to continue on with the actual encounter. Seems pretty 2-Cish to me, for when he does successfully cast it.

 

[Antvasima]

It does not seem like the rest of the staff is interested in helping out with this thread.

Regardless, it would require extremely good evidence to rate any character as 1-A, and also make them impossible to affect by any physical means whatsoever,

 

[Udlmaster]

Well if it is "All Creation" and not the Universe then that's a 2-A not 2-C as he'd destroy the Multiverse, all Creation.

 

[Antvasima]

"All creation" is recurrently used to refer to a universe for the sake of drama. Unless a multiverse is specified, we likely cannot use it, and even then it has to be an infinite number of universes to qualify for 2-A.

 

[Udlmaster]

Very true, but WoW is stated to have an infinite amount of Universes via Parallel worlds. Aka, What If's, diverging timelines etc. Like each Universe has a theoretically infinite amount of Timelines that are protected by the Bronze Dragons.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

"All creation" is recurrently used to refer to a universe for the sake of drama. Unless a multiverse is specified, we likely cannot use it, and even then it has to be an infinite number of universes to qualify for 2-A.

Well, funny thing about that...but...

WoW's "Multiverse" has an Infinite number of Universes, with an Infinite number of Timelines.

The Illidan novel is VERY Specific on this topic. Hell, Sargeras himself can go from Universe to Universe doing his shit, going from timeline to timeline destroying countless Worlds in the great dark beyond. Illidan saw the Legion traveling across the Universe, and Vandel (Illidan's first DH) saw Sargeras doing this exact same thing.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Argus is likely supposed to be Sargeras' Ace in the hole. AKA, his "**** it" button, for incase things go south. In which, they did...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but ending creation is still more likely to refer to the universe.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORdE3xt4R5I

For further proof, Nobbel (A Famous WoW Lore guy) made a video discussing the Illidan novel. However, for the whole Infinite Universes BS, go to 1:52 in the video. It won't take long. The whole Universe talk stops at around the 3 Minute mark.

 

[Rakanadyo]

"All creation" is recurrently used to refer to a universe for the sake of drama. Unless a multiverse is specified, we likely cannot use it, and even then it has to be an infinite number of universes to qualify for 2-A.

On that topic, Warcraft is pretty convoluted. There is a "multiverse" with branching timelines and realities. However, certain cosmic entities like the Titans, Void Lords, gods, and demons are referred to as "constants", meaning they exist as singular entities across them all. Argus, being a fel-tainted Titan with the potential "destroy all creation" ability, would likely fall under that.

There are as many holes in that explanation as they tried to fill with said explanation, but to my understanding that's how it works.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Okay, but ending creation is still more likely to refer to the universe.

In WoW, the "Universe" everyone talks about isn't just 1 Universe. To Sargeras, the Universe means EVERYTHING! Meanwhile, every Universe, every reality, every timeline. It's all apart of Creation, right? Besides, the Void Lord's won't die from it. They won't have a prize to claim, but they won't die from it. The Void Lord's live outside the bonds of Creation. They don't give a shit. To them, Creation itself is just a mere tool for them to thrive in. A Playground.

Meaning, if Argus ends Creation, it might be a little more than just "This Universe". It'll likely mean more than just that.

However, that's just my Speculation. Maybe he is 2-C (In which, I hope he is. Anything above might be too crazy for us Champions to handle right now), but...time will tell.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

"And even then, it has to be an Infinite Number of Universes for it to qualify as 2-A"

Again, the Illidan novel. It clearly states that there are an Infinite Number of Universes, and that more are added within each choice 1 person makes. However, that doesn't stop the Legion from trumphing.

 

[Antvasima]

Unless the word "multiverse" was used, we cannot assume anything beyond Low 2-C.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

"All creation" is recurrently used to refer to a universe for the sake of drama. Unless a multiverse is specified, we likely cannot use it, and even then it has to be an infinite number of universes to qualify for 2-A.

On that topic, Warcraft is pretty convoluted. There is a "multiverse" with branching timelines and realities. However, certain cosmic entities like the Titans, Void Lords, gods, and demons are referred to as "constants", meaning they exist as singular entities across them all. Argus, being a fel-tainted Titan with the potential "destroy all creation" ability, would likely fall under that.
There are as many holes in that explanation as they tried to fill with said explanation, but to my understanding that's how it works.

Yeah. But, there are ways to understand a Titan's power.

Aman'thul is a Time god, Eonar's a Life Goddess, Khaz'goroth's the Forger, Aggramar's the Avenger, Sargeras is the Dark Titan, Gol'ganneth holds Sea/Sky powers, And Norgannon is the Keeper of Secrets/Lore, as well as Magics.

So, i'd make sense if Argus has the abilities to bend the Laws of Creation to his will, since the other Titans have their own crazy af abilites. Hell, Azeroth's stated to be the strongest Titan, and she's still a World Soul.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Unless the word "multiverse" was used, we cannot assume anything beyond Low 2-C.

The word "Multiverse" is used. However, most people in WoW usually go for the term "Universe", namely because the "Universe" is a more simple way of stating "Everything".

A Multiverse is in WoW. It just is called a different term. Idk why, tbh....

 

[Antvasima]

I mean that unless it was explicitly stated that the multiverse was going to be destroyed, we cannot assume so. End of discussion.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

I mean that unless it was explicitly stated that the multiverse was going to be destroyed, we cannot assume so. End of discussion.

Oh no. I agree, Argus' feat is likely 2-C.

However, i'm saying WoW does have a Multiverse, and that the Void Lords are likely either 2-A, or HIGH 1-A if they're hyped up enough by Blizzard (Which is, maybe unlikely, but...who knows).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Okay.

Sorry for the necro ant, but I can at least add that WoW is part of the blizzard multiverse thanks to heroes of the storm. I can evaluate this thread much in depth later, I think I know WoW enough.

But the tldr version is that I think the first suggestion makes sense. I am a little concerned that we have to consider diety scaling not even for the true dieties, but for the old gods and the wild ones, since WoW is somewhat riddled with PIS.

I think also while we cant bring all the elemental lords to High 6-A/Possibly 5-C. They should scale to the old gods since they are vastly superior to the Elemental Lords.

Wild Ones are a little sketchy, since I honestly hated the druid class and didnt care much about the lore, so I will come back with some evaluations on that front.

Also, unknown speed for most the cast is a little silly imo. There are lightning and light based attacks in WoW we can use to scale for speed considering we revised lightning criteria.

Edit: Btw, this is surface observations. I will do some homework on where we should place WoW since it is somewhat of the lichpin of the blizzard canon.

Edit 2: Murmur scaling is fine in the second suggestion I think since it references 'Planet'

I think those with 5-B ratings in the second suggestion seem reasonable. In short, I think a mix of the two are 'correct'.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help. Can you write up your own concrete suggestions, and then ask Azathoth to evaluate them here?

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, the reason I say the Elemental Lords could be Planet level is that they are aspects of a Planet. And a Titan one too.

Since we know from Argus the Unmaker that he was unmaking reality itself and Azeroth is stated that she is the strongest even above Fel-Sargeras, shows us a lot.

Even if the Elemental Lords are only aspects of the Shell of Azeroth, they're still parts of a massive Planet, I believe Azeroth was supposed to be in size, 3x bigger then Earth. Also, Game size =/= Lore Size.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Well, the reason I say the Elemental Lords could be Planet level is that they are aspects of a Planet. And a Titan one too.
Since we know from Argus the Unmaker that he was unmaking reality itself and Azeroth is stated that she is the strongest even above Fel-Sargeras, shows us a lot.

Even if the Elemental Lords are only aspects of the Shell of Azeroth, they're still parts of a massive Planet, I believe Azeroth was supposed to be in size, 3x bigger then Earth. Also, Game size =/= Lore Size.

Some counter points, some points of agreement.

First off, I am somewhat skeptical of characters who are aspects of the things they embody (Lord of the Rings also had this problem). I will need more then just them being 'planets'

If they can destroy or make a planet, fine. I can accept that.

Dont quote me on this, But I am 70 percent sure Elemental Lords are still not gods and not even abstracts.

They are just very powerful elementals.

It is obvious Argus 'reshaped reality' and since he is above Fel Sargeras, a titan, we can assume he is fairly strong.

Source: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Argus

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Argus_the_Unmaker

titans have the potential to become aspects of a world Even titans have the potential to become aspects of a world

A weakened Argus, mind you was a threat to all of Azeroth.

It seems like too me, Argus was an extremely powerful, but still a typical titan.

At the very least Ant, Titans are 5-B since they themselves are embodiments of the world souls.

They scale to the old gods who are 'Possibly 5-B'

They fought the Titans, but lost, but easily stomped the elemental lords.

They are immensely above any life form on Azezoth.

And they serve void lords who crave world souls to corrupt their worlds, something originally planned for Azezoth

I am going to need some more proof on Multi-Continent Level elemental Lords @Udl

I am neutral, but the power potential is there.

I don't know how much weaker the elemental lords are, but it is possibly they are in the tier 6 range.

Plus, I find it a little hard to believe they are not comparable to Deathwing (Although this part IDK well so dont quote me on it).


For sure though. Kil'jaeden and co are 'At Least 5-B'.

I am unsure where to put rag and such, but if Deathwing has even one statement that scales to him about him being this level, I will concede.

Since World in WoW= Planet.

Edit: I also want to add sources from Nobbel87 are fine since they are pretty accurate representations and interpretations of the lore.

I only added this part since someone mentioned him above.

 

[Antvasima]

@KinkiestSins

Again, thank you for the help. Are you willing to handle these revisions, if Azathoth is uninterested in giving feedback?

 

[KinkiestSins]

@KinkiestSins
Again, thank you for the help. Are you willing to handle these revisions, if Azathoth is uninterested in giving feedback?

Sure.

I am only here for the evaluation. I might need some fact checking.

But I also did some digging and I think the elemental lords should be High 6-A for different reasons.

Neptulo has control over all water in Azezoth, and generally speaking we treat such feats at this range.

So maybe the second suggestion for the lords and such isnt that big of an outlier.

I think I will go the middle ground and suggest the following


Elemental Lords, Dragons etc: At Least 6-C, Likely High 6-A: (All of them casually are in tier 7 or 6 range, with Neptulon having control over all water on Azezoth itself.)

Old Gods Gods: "Likely 5-B" (Easily defeated all the elemental lords on the planet. Their voices can turn the likes of common mortals, death wing in an alternate universe and many other heroes mad. Fought Titans in the war for Azezoth but lost. Superior to Deathwing and other abstracts.)

Deathwing: "At Least High 6-A, Possibly 5-B" (Superior to Ragnoros and Al Akir, who he kept as Lackies. He is also refered to as the 'Destroyer of Worlds'. Strongest dragon on the entire planet of Azezoth bar Alexstraza, who beat him. Prior to his transformation, Neltharion prior to becoming deathwing was given the power of a titan

Alexstraza: "At Least High 6-A, Likely 5-B" (Superior to Deathwing prior to his transformation and likely after. She was appointed by the Titans as the queen of all dragons.)

All other dragon aspects scaled similarly, Thrall in particular would replace Neltharion at least in position, but we are unsure if he inherited his power so I think he might be best at "Unknown, Possibly 5-B"


Any Titan: 5-B (All Titans have world souls, embodiments of the planets they came from and as such have the power of the planet. Many Titans visit worlds in hopes to unifying and creating order)

Argus should probably be "At Least 5-B."

Also: I dont know their concrete speed, but considering they went to Azezoth from deep space to help, they should likely be FTL (To which degree, I am not sure, but this is a low end we can consider for speed)

I think we dont have that many feats the elemental lords at any other level, so I think this is a good middle ground.

I will revise reasoning to be specific later on but tldr

Titans are 5-B: World Souls = Planet

Old Gods, Dragon Aspects etc: At Least High 6-A, Possibly/Likely 5-B

Elemental Lords: At Least 6-C, Likely High 6-A.


Sources: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Alexstrasza#War_of_the_Ancients

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Aspects

 

[Antvasima]

How are titans 5-B if they only have a fraction of planetary power?

Is being referred to as a destroyer of worlds truly enough evidence to be considered as Low 5-B?

Where did the 6-C tier come from?

 

[KinkiestSins]

How are titans 5-B if they only have a fraction of planetary power?

Is being referred to as a destroyer of worlds truly enough evidence to be considered as Low 5-B?

Where did the 6-C tier come from?

Because they planets as described above as well as here: https://wow.gamepedia.com/World-soul I probably should have held off flowery language, but they are 'part of the planet' and created it in a sense. I am going to edit my previous comment to avoid confusion.

Yeah, because WoW World = Planet It is part of the games vocabulary. Described here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/World


Rag and Therezen casually are in this level, either with mountain range creation or volcano eruptions. So I think this is fine.

Edit: If Confusion on the word planet seems off, I will be fine with a concession of Low 5-B replacing 5-B instead. It is a safe lowball. I am fine with either.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The titans seem reliable then.

I meant that it could simply be hyperbole, if we do not have any proof.

Okay then, but this has to be clarified in appropriate profiles.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Okay. The titans seem reliable then.

I meant that it could simply be hyperbole, if we do not have any proof.

Okay then, but this has to be clarified in appropriate profiles.

Which do you prefer? Low 5-B or 5-B?

I think Low 5-B might be 'safe' And while yes it might be hyperbole Ant, as stated above Deathwing was one of the original five dragons changed by the Titans so the title does seem to have some credibility. That said, I only have him and everyone else at 'Possibly 5-B'. They dont have the feats, but they have the statements/lore.

I think this is fine imo.

That said, if we accept Low 5-B, I think the note on every profile should read.

"While World Souls are described the embodiment of planets, it is unknown how big or small these planets are. As such, we cannot assume they are comparable or even larger then Earth in size."

 

[KinkiestSins]

Oh and elemental lord scaling? I literally only got 'Control of all waters' from neptulon as such. This would be High 6-A, but that is honestly the only thing for this ranking. Would 'Possibly High 6-A' for the elemental lords be better?